quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

where are we disagreeing?

I wasnt being honest, i was being sarcastically prescient.

quote:

I wasnt being honest, i was being sarcastically prescient.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go read my response again. Same point. Government funds got that equipment moving. Oh no! Government!

And, government assistance and help from neighbors, community, and corporation are not in conflict -- they are contributing complementary resources.

And that's a good thing.

Actually, I've sat through the planning of a couple of disasters where for days the locals had to pick and choose what they could afford to do until days later when the governor got around to declaring a disaster. So at best, "Government funds got that equipment moving"'was local for a long time until the larger government could get its shit together. In the mean time the locals opened stores, kitchens and wardrobes. In the previous example, Motorola beat the state by two days. And in fact while the congressman was there during those two days, he had to sit on his hands until the Governor asked the Feds for help. Pissed him off to say the least as he wanted to help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

where are we disagreeing?

I wasnt being honest, i was being sarcastically prescient.

Maybe you did not read my OP.
I try to explain how I feel when I start posts, instead of copying and pasting newspaper articles and writing one sentence,
as many do on here.

I spent a long time writing it, and went into great detail why I feel the federal, state and local governments should
do a lot more to help people before and after disasters.
I clearly disagreed that neighbors, family and friends can do enough in some cases.

I don't think we are on the same page here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

where are we disagreeing?

I wasnt being honest, i was being sarcastically prescient.

Maybe you did not read my OP.
I try to explain how I feel when I start posts, instead of copying and pasting newspaper articles and writing one sentence,
as many do on here.

I spent a long time writing it, and went into great detail why I feel the federal, state and local governments should
do a lot more to help people before and after disasters.
I clearly disagreed that neighbors, family and friends can do enough in some cases.

I don't think we are on the same page here.

yes I read your op---there is very little "why" there in terms of making the case for government help. you stated needs, deficiencies, and inadequacies---those are not arguments in support of WHY government needs to be more involved. all those same needs, deficiencies, and inadequacies can be met, and met more successfully from other sources.

regardless, as ive said and posted plenty of support for---"more government" is not the answer and I contended that reliance on government where other options exist can actually be harmful.

in terms of the "honesty" part---im assuming your meaning my statement having to do with "not liking the poor, etc..."

that's what I was referring to when I said "sarcastically prescient"---meaning that just because I agree with the methods of helping people, some liberal was going to come along and accuse me of "hating the poor." much in the same way that protecting speech for white supremacists makes me a Nazi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I am not sure what the point is in going back and forth.
Neither one of us, will change out mind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Question: What is/ or should be the role of federal, state and local governments before, during and after natural disasters?

Hurricane Harvey landed around 10:00 p.m. this evening, it is ashore and could be a Cat 4.
This could be a record breaking storm, in which the rain lasts at least a week!

There are thousands of websites that state more or less what "should" be the role of federal, state and local governments during disasters,
but many of the "roles" are gray area's at best.

We have been bombarded with news about Hurricane Harvey for at least 10 days.
People that live in the hurricane path have been encouraged to evacuate for at least a week.
Should people HAVE to evacuate?

Also, should the government go all out to attempt to save those that made no attempt to evacuate?

Even after Katrina, it appears a certain amount of people that are poor/disabled/or without adequate resources, don't leave because they don't have anyone
to help them.
The ACPCA states that 30% don't leave because of their pets.
Many can't stand to leave their pets behind, or they don't know what to do with their pets during an evacuation.
WHY IS THAT?
Can't the government set up systems and places for people to go with pets, and make it widely known and available, far in advance?

Why can't the government provide Ubers, U-Hauls, vans and cars for those that can't afford them/and or need help gathering possessions BEFORE the storm?
Also, many people evacuate and stay in schools, campgrounds, etc.
Can't the government/and "GOD" forbid, greedy corporate bastards put people up in hotels for half price or free during these times?
Many people have physical, medical or mental disabilities and they should not have to live in a school or campground for days/weeks.

Why is it after every natural disaster I have witnessed in my lifetime, that I felt that the American citizens should have been provided with more?
Both BEFORE and AFTER the natural disaster.
I am curious to see the support and assistance that will be given to those in Texas.
Short term and Long Term Support
Should your economic situation before a natural disaster impact how you will "live through/or get by" during an emergency?
Humm

quote:

If the “American government would have responded like Wal-Mart has responded, we wouldn’t be in this crisis.” Louisiana’s Jefferson Parish President Aaron Broussard, paraphrasing Sheriff Harry Lee during an interview on “Meet the Press,” got to the root of all that went wrong in the buildup to and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina last August. “It’s not just Katrina that caused all these deaths in New Orleans here. Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area.”

The contrast between government agencies and Wal-Mart was underscored by the conflict between them. According to Broussard, before the hurricane made landfall, “We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water, trailer trucks of water. FEMA [the Federal Emergency Management Agency] turned them back. They said we didn’t need them.”

The contrast was further illustrated by the Washington Post on September 6: “Over the next few days [beginning two days after the hurricane hit], Wal-Mart’s response to Katrina—an unrivaled $20 million in cash donations, 1,500 truckloads of free merchandise, food for 100,000 meals and the promise of a job for every one of its displaced workers—has turned the chain into an unexpected lifeline for much of the Southeast. . . . While state and federal officials have come under harsh criticism for their handling of the storm’s aftermath, Wal-Mart is being held up as a model for logistical efficiency and nimble disaster planning, which have allowed it to quickly deliver staples such as water, fuel and toilet paper to thousands of evacuees.”

The Post quoted the executive vice president o f the Brookhaven-Lincoln County [Mississippi] Chamber of Commerce: “They were ready before FEMA was.” No mystery here. Wal-Mart’s bread and butter is getting goods where they are needed when they are needed—or sooner…

Home Depot also kept serving customers. In storm damaged Brookhaven, Mississippi, Home Depot manager Greg Newman faced 600 customers looking for generators. The Post reported: “He hit the phones to reel in truckloads of the precious machines. The store itself came to life on generator power, and soon the cash registers were ringing. By evening, Newman’s customers had their lights and refrigerators working. ‘Nobody went home without a generator that night,’ he said.”…

Maybe if flood services hadn’t been socialized, New Orleans wouldn’t have become the great city it became. Who can say? What we can say is that shielding people from the full costs of their decisions usually comes to grief. The marketplace is a “discovery procedure” (in Hayek’s words), and the discoveries that would have been made in a free market never were made. Instead, people were told to trust the government. We see where that got them.

https://fee.org/articles/hurricane-katrina-government-versus-the-private-sector/

quote:

Disaster management is rapidly becoming a very important area of CSR. Although some natural disasters strike very suddenly and the only response that can be done is post-tragedy, others require a degree of forethought. Sometimes CSR responses may be as simple as ensuring that services go on as normal, so as not to create further inconveniences.

For a week now, retailers like Walmart, Home Depot and CVS Pharmacy have been preparing themselves in anticipation of Hurricane Irene, which hit the East Coast over the weekend. During Hurricane Katrina, Walmart was able to reopen its stores a week after the levees broke. They also delivered $20m in cash, 100 truckloads of free merchandise and food for 100,000 meals – some say that this was faster than the federal government’s response to the crisis. This time around, they are better prepared.

What Walmart is Doing

Mark Cooper is Walmart‘s head of emergency management and he has been in charge of coordinating the mega-retailer’s action plan in the following ways:
•Walmart has a staff meteorologist which means they can keep track of disasters and ensure proper response in a timely fashion.
•Using its extensive database, it is able to monitor and anticipate demand during emergencies to ensure that it is stocked up with needed products. With Irene, the system helped to allocate things like batteries, canned foods etc.
•They have used their experiences with Katrina to come up with a better response this time. The most wanted item then was strawberry Pop-Tarts (believe it or not), so now they are ensuring that stores are stocked up with it.

What Home Depot is Doing

Russ Householder is Home Depot’s emergency response manager. Home Depot has a Hurricane Command Center in Atlanta with 100 associates who worked to anticipate how Irene would affect its East Coast stores. They have been monitoring their stores since the beginning of hurricane season and have been connected with their district managers. These managers in turn have been focusing on stocking items like generators, chain saw, water etc.

Householder says, “We take storm product, both pre- and post-strike product, we stage those in containers and we have them in our distribution centers, really ready for a driver to pull up and pick up and take them to our stores.”

When Irene struck Puerto Rico, Home Depot stores switched to emergency generators and the stores were open and ready for customers the next day.

What CVS Pharmacy is Doing

CVS encouraged all its customers to fill their prescriptions prior to the weekend. They have also instructed them to keep their medicines in a water-proof box with easy instructions, especially if they are taking multiple medications. Their stores are also stocked with items like water, flashlights and other products. They are also assisting in hurricane recovery efforts by planning water donation with the American Red Cross.

Taking a Proactive Stance Towards Disaster Management

The Federal Emergency Management Agency has begun to study the ways in which the private sector works during emergencies. Since Katrina, this kind of crossover in knowledge is very essential in order to ensure adequate disaster response. The retail sector has a lot of avenues to improve on their disaster responses. Taking a proactive stance towards disaster management is not only good CSR, it simply boils down to good customer service. Ensuring that stores are well stocked and open ensures that most people can get what they need after an emergency. In this way, relief agencies can focus on the less fortunate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Go read my response again. Same point. Government funds got that equipment moving. Oh no! Government!

And, government assistance and help from neighbors, community, and corporation are not in conflict -- they are contributing complementary resources.

And that's a good thing.

Actually, I've sat through the planning of a couple of disasters where for days the locals had to pick and choose what they could afford to do until days later when the governor got around to declaring a disaster. So at best, "Government funds got that equipment moving"'was local for a long time until the larger government could get its shit together. In the mean time the locals opened stores, kitchens and wardrobes. In the previous example, Motorola beat the state by two days. And in fact while the congressman was there during those two days, he had to sit on his hands until the Governor asked the Feds for help. Pissed him off to say the least as he wanted to help.

So again, each doing its part, a complementary effort.

Oh no! Not government!

FFS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nope. You're still whining people misrepresent you.

And yet, you go on and on doing exactly that. No one called for more government, no one said business and the community didn't help.

That's all you posting ridiculous shit.

You LOOK for arguments. And not the logical kind.

Fuck off. Go enjoy a nice disaster somewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
I am not sure what the point is in going back and forth.
Neither one of us, will change out mind.

minds sometimes CAN change when facts are examined in earnest. I remember in the 80s making the statement to a conservative friend along the lines of "we need to spend more on public education."

it was a somewhat mindless unexamined thought I had somehow gleaned from the lefties in education. when he pointed out to me how much we do indeed already spend on public education, and how there are alternative systems that do the same, or better, for less, I began a journey towards conservative/libertarian thought.

at the same time, one of the points of "arguing" is consistent with my favorite proverb "as iron sharpens iron, so one friend (or sometimes read "man"), sharpens another."

when people have to defend thoughts against criticisms, or respond to questions, they have to examine their own beliefs more deeply, as well as learn to argue better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nope. You're still whining people misrepresent you.

And yet, you go on and on doing exactly that. No one called for more government, no one said business and the community didn't help.

That's all you posting ridiculous shit.

You LOOK for arguments. And not the logical kind.

Fuck off. Go enjoy a nice disaster somewhere.

Show me anywhere I've made any comment, let alone whined, about being misrepresented.

Wow, touched a nerve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i have not suggested in the least that some tax dollars shouldn't be allocated for emergency preparedness and response, or that the government shouldn't be involved in natural disasters.

im simply saying that the hierarchy is that people are/should be responsible for themselves and each other first, and then the private sector kicks in and then the government.

ive posted things that both in principle and from "on the ground" that have shown governments not as effective in meeting the needs of people during emergencies.

given that, the answer is not "more government", its more personal responsibility and private enterprise.

one thing I wouldn't mind however is state and local government working right now with communities everywhere in terms of creating action plans for disasters. itd be great for them to coordinate with all the local businesses and organizations asking, "what can you do given xyz emergency", and then letting that information be known to the public.

"in case of emergency---this is transportation, this is shelter, this is food, this is medical care, etc"

but again, that doesn't supplant people being responsible for themselves and each other. the government is too big and peoples needs too nimble for anything other than a bottom up solution.