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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 3:36:50 PM   
Sunshine119


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I think this a great topic and one very much misunderstood.  It's nice to think that we are "entitled" to anything but in a cosmic, metaphyical way, perhaps we are not.  The word entitlement might be the wrong word you are using here.  Or maybe it is exactly the word you have chosen at great lengths to use. 

By traveling through third world countries, I find myself humbled at how little we, as human beings, are actually "entitled" to.  There are basic human rights which every person should be entitled, but very few are.  We, as Americans, don't usually reflect upon how great the creator (universe, etc) has blessed us.  Are we entitled?  Hell, no.

But the fact remains that those of us conversing on this board do feel entitled to much more than most in the world so I will start from that common point.

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

What issues have you had in dealing with the idea of entitlement?


See above.  But, even given the sense that we are not entitled to anything within the cosmic, time and space continuum, we DO need to remember, that however we choose to live, we can never give away anything that does not belong to us, but rather belongs to another.  In this matter, I am specifically speaking of our minors.  I have seen too many dominants, submissives and slaves here who have relinquished the responisbility for the raising of their offspring to their offspring's other parent or other relatives.  These little ones did not come into existence without our help, and consequently they should be ENTITLED to the love, caring, nurturing and upbrining that both those assisting in their creation have a responsibility to provide for at least 18 years.

quote:

What are you entitled to in your relationships (from both the dominant and submissive perspective)?


I'm a submissive and don't identify myself as a slave.  Consequently, there are some differences.  Hmmmm.....first off, I'm not entitled to a relationship at all.  The relationship I find myself happily in involves respect, love, caring and understanding of our mutual and differing roles within our relationship as D/s.  We both work.  Consequently, we have different responsibilities there.  We both have children (different ones....lol).  He still has children in college and one under the age of 18 (barely).  Mine are both grown.  But, we have different responsibilities there which we cannot ignore nor change because of a D/s or M/s relationship.  A child/parent relationship MUST always come first. 

Other than those two things, he is not entitled to anything more within that relationship than am I.  It is a work in progress and always will be.  There is a clear power exchange in our household.  We talk about many things, he usually makes decision.  Sometimes he doesn't care what I choose to serve for all the meal for the week, for instance.  I have alot of autonomy in running the household, yet he makes most of the major decisions.  I have input in these, but the decision, if not about our younger ones, are his.

I have learned to expect things such as common courtesy, love and discipline when I am out of line.  I expect these things, I am not entitled to any of them. (see the general comments above)

quote:

How have you learned to let go of the things you are not entitled to?


Since I am entitled to nothing in life, I give my best and hope for the best in return.  But the realization lies in my mind that even though His Highness is dominant over most of my life, HE is entitled to nothing either.  He can expect much from me however and those expectations are high.  Sometimes he expects more than I feel I am capable, but he has taught me much in that regard.

quote:

Have there been patterns established – consistency in actions – which led you to have expectations, which in turn gave you a feeling of entitlement?


Nope

quote:

Lastly, did losing feelings of entitlement bring forth enlightenment?  And if so, how?


The realization that I had no entitlement to anything in life freed me from the burdens of trying to accumulate wealth, made me more aware of my fellow human being and the plight of those living (and dying) in the rest of this world.




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(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 3:41:43 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee


I wonder about 'How Deep'... but I think I know what it feels like.  Ever just bare your neck to your lover?  ...KNOW that what He does is out of love and caring, protection of your soul; a desire to let you fly?  I want that again...  
 


Not to hijack my own thread - ha - but yes, I have.  Beared my neck with a blade at my throat, and with his hands wrapped around my throat as well.  Yes, I know that ALL he does is out of all you just said.  And that is precisely why I can let go of my previous feelings of entitlement (how's that for incorporating my OP back in?).  It is refreshing to see such understanding of what I was talking about.

(in reply to Bearlee)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 3:43:17 PM   
KnightofMists


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lovely post Sunshine... thank you for sharing

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 3:49:18 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
The biggest challenge I have had with entitlement is the fact that my Lord is very consistent in his interactions with me.  He will do something the same way every single time and the repetitiveness creates an expectation that it will happen again the next time.  Stopping myself from feeling entitled to these interactions is what I struggle with.  The biggest thing that helps me is him being consistent with correcting me when I overstep my bounds. 

This same thing used to trip me up a lot, also.  Now I find myself being more and more aware of not allowing that to happen.  Does that mean I will never get tripped up again?  Well I wish and hope that to be the case, but there are no guarantees.  What I can do, however, is work on my awareness of that possibility.

quote:


He asked me the other day, “What do you think I am entitled to?” and I said “Whatever you want.”  Some would perceive it as an imbalance or negative aspect of the relationship, but for me I am quite content with the structure.


To me that is not negative at all, but a beautiful answer, and one that can feel so liberating from the slave's perspective.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 3:59:54 PM   
bigdaninwi


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Owned -  many thanks for publishing your thoughts on this subject.  I believe my girl, has had many of the same struggles.  If she reads these quotes, I am sure her ideas are in line with Akasha as are my own views.

First, I would like to note Owned used the words: "Submission" and "Service"...many have quoted Slave and Slavery...it's an old thread but words have meaning.  Owned is seeking to understand her service and submission.  Therefore when discussing Submission and Service are there entitlements and what do we do with that "should" word.

Each of us will express their philosophies in different terms.  For me, I dominate the environment not the person.  It is up to me to setup the environment that allows my submissive to act on her submission.  The submissive is entitled to have a Dom...who provides the environment for her to florish.  That is an entitlement.  Which means communicating and expressing that environment to the submissive.  I am not sure why this concept is so hard for Dominant's to understand. 

Freedom of choice and will belongs to everyone who has the use of reason: no less, essentially, to the bad than to the good: as fully in this life as in the next." said Bernard of Clairvaux.  The Dominant is responsible for setting up an environmnet where the Submissive would know how to service the Master.  Where the Dominant communicates and expresses and places loving emphasis on what is desired.  Make no mistake about it..if the submissive is asking "should" questions then..it is natural, it is instinctive for the submissive to question the environment that has been created.  It is natural for a person who is expressing their serivce to feel compelled to ask questions when they are not being treated as needed.  To act contrary and to be punished for thinking logically only serve to create personal and  mental illness.

Each and everyday, I am reminded of what a misguided, mistrained "Dominant" with complete and utter lack of respect for the human condition can do to a person.  I work through these conditions daily.  I come to these boards voicing my opinion in hopes that I may help someone understand the beauty and love that can be created in a D/s relationship.  I seek to express how D/s and Power Exchange can be powerful extensions of a relationship.  The art and expression given by each person is truly powerful when manifested properly, is a beautiful sight. 

Therefore, I will always and everywhere stand up for Akasha's perspective.  While I strive to create this environment for my girl.  I am often the one seeking to understand, how can I create a better environment for her.  Therefore, I am the one left holding the "should" word.

BigDan

(in reply to Bearlee)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 4:50:47 PM   
TNstepsout


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Personally I think you are entitled to lots of things in a D/s relationship (and in ANY relationship) Perhaps you are just not entitled to demand them and that's the difference. But really in any relationship demands don't go over well. If people would learn to ask for and say what they want and need without demanding or expecting I think we'd all get along quite a bit better.


(in reply to bigdaninwi)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 5:25:08 PM   
cynthiamarie


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*pulls up a chair to intrude on this conversation*

Now I see into this deeper, thank you for starting this thread. 

You put into words what a male sub I've wanted for this past year is afraid of, and why he feels he's got less to offer.

quote:

I think that he wants me to expect more than I actually do at times, and he hasn't been with anyone who expected so little of him.

In a reverse-side-of-the-power-exchange-coin way, this is true of a relationship I'm in.  I care for someone for who he is and wouldn't wish to collar him just to turn him into a blank canvas, and start painting all over him.  Why buy an airplane just to use the metal to make yourself a car?  This is what he expects to happen though.

I can understand more fully that he *needs* to give more than he is able to give at this stage in his life...but unlike others who weren't interested because he can't be a 24/7 no limits slave, I don't see his submission as any less valuable because of it. 

quote:

I have the belief that our possessions own us. If he collars me, then that responsiblity owns him too.

I agree.  A sub becomes part of my life in a way that feels...a lot like I do toward my own dependent child. 

quote:

What issues have you had in dealing with the idea of entitlement?

I've had different issues with differet male subs/slaves.  If they want to be owned but still insist on being free...feeling entitled to daily nights out with the boys that prevents them from keeping their word about some kind of daily contact with me, then I start severing ties.  If he acts like a SAMmy bottom, I'm going to treat him like a SAMmy bottom.  He is entitled not to have a Mistress, and to wait in line for when I'm free and in the mood to top him. 

On the other hand, when someone is really submissive to me they are entitled to many things...like being one of my first priorities, valued, and allowed to come to me about anything at any time.   

quote:

What are you entitled to in your relationships (from both the dominant and submissive perspective)?

To have my needs met, and most of my wants unless any would cause harm to my sub's mental, emotional, or physical health/safety. 

quote:

How have you learned to let go of the things you are not entitled to?

Some things, yes.  I decided I was not entitled to take certain things, as taking would cause damage to someone's life or wellbeing, or to that of their dependent(s).  The welfare of (a divorced male's) children comes first over anything I feel I'm entitled to.

quote:

Have there been patterns established – consistency in actions – which led you to have expectations, which in turn gave you a feeling of entitlement?

Yes...my answer reminds me of what someone said years ago, about that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck...I feel the same way about someone being mine.  I have expectations of someone, and feel entitled to his daily company and submission and look forward to deeper submission from him, because this is an established pattern with us that has lasted for about a year.  Being told that he's felt my invisible collar around his neck soon after we began chatting intensified my feelings of entitlement.  No, he's not officially mine.  Yet.

quote:

Lastly, did losing feelings of entitlement bring forth enlightenment?  And if so, how?

From my point of view, losing my own feelings of entitlement means the relationship is in deep trouble.  As for the male I wish to collar, his not feeling any sense of entitlement makes me want to smack him  .  It's a reminder to me that he's not quite mine yet; part of him feels *not mine* if he doesn't feel he has a right to turn to me and expect things from me.

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 7:42:26 PM   
akisha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Hi Akisha,

> I agree but then would that not mean I am entitled to a Dominant
> that loves me and wants what is best for me? *S*   Just as he is
> entitled to my love and my wanting to be my best for him.

I don't know if any of us are "entitled" to a soul-mate that loves us.
I mean it would sure be nice if they automatically handed them out
when we reached a certain age.  In my personal estimation, seeing 
this does not automatically happen, it should be our objective to
find such a person.
 
With love, lashes, and endless hugs,
Michael. 



Well considering I don't really believe in the whole sould mate thing so therefore I don't believe I am entitled to one.

But i do think that i deserve a good and loving person in my life. I know i deserve the best for myself and who and what is best for me is not going to be the same as someone else.
What I mean is I will not settle for less then that. I may not be entitled to it, but I will not settle for just anyone.

I agree with you, I wish at 30 you were given the name and address of your perfect mate or mates hehe would make life soo much easier. And take away so much heart ache. Will never happen though *S*

_____________________________

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Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 7:49:28 PM   
Homestead


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Women have an instinctual desire to be provided with a nest in which to rear children.

Men who will not provide that are usually rejected as losers.

(in reply to akisha)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 9:29:40 PM   
cloudboy


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I just don't like the idea of subs rationalizing their own unhappiness away because they are submissive and are "supposed to take it."

If you are happy in your station, good for you and maybe my ideas missed the mark.

I am curious, though, how far you will be able to carry your selflessness forward. Please let me know what the outer bounds of it feels like. Be careful, too, of losing yourself out there.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:15:31 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I just don't like the idea of subs rationalizing their own unhappiness away because they are submissive and are "supposed to take it."
  Supposed to take what?  All the good and joy he bestows on me?  Why would I not want that?  Why are you supposing I am unhappy?  You should talk to those who "knew me when" and you might think much differently afterwards.

quote:


If you are happy in your station, good for you and maybe my ideas missed the mark.

They are not even on the dartboard, I'm afraid.

quote:


I am curious, though, how far you will be able to carry your selflessness forward. Please let me know what the outer bounds of it feels like. Be careful, too, of losing yourself out there.

Define these outer bounds you speak of.  As for how far I will carry it, that is not something I will discuss on this public thread.  Let's just say, as far as I wish and he allows.  As for your comment about losing myself, I invite you to read my previous responses to such remarks. 

While I appreciate genuine concern, what most do not realize is how lost I was before coming into this slavery, and how serving as his slave has allowed me to be everything I have ever wanted to be.  As a result (and I said this in a previous thread just a couple of weeks ago), I have become successful at work, reunited with my family, lost weight, learned my independence, learned my strength and inner joy, and shed years and years of heaped on pain which was burying me.  Maybe these are the outer bounds you speak of.  If so, it is blissful.

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:20:44 PM   
Homestead


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If yourself was a miserable entity,why would you fear it's loss?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:25:40 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Your question makes no sense to me.  I lost the misery and gain the "real me" I was hiding.   What fear is it you are speaking of?

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:27:43 PM   
Homestead


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I was speaking in reply to cloudboy's paranoid little diatribe about losing oneself.

You have lost a self, a poor one.

But was it really a loss?

< Message edited by Homestead -- 8/14/2006 11:28:13 PM >

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:27:47 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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I can only speak for myself in this.  I know that I do deserve certain things from the one that I serve.  If I take care of him, treat him well, with respect, and care.. why should I not feel that I deserve those same things in return?  This does not make me any less of a sub/slave, this just makes me a human being that has needs and wants in this world also.  I give one hundred percent, I should get that back.  It is a TPE, therefore.. it should be exchanged..there is a sort of "entitlement" that comes with the name.. IMHO
 
Andrea

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:30:04 PM   
ownedgirlie


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OK. Your post was a reply to me, therefore a little confusing.  I assume your latest comments are to him as well.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:33:03 PM   
Homestead


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I replied to both of you at once, and I will reply to butterfly as well now.

No one is entitled to one iota more than another is willing to give.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:37:12 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

No one is entitled to one iota more than another is willing to give.


And yet, just because he is willing to give it, does not mean I am entitled to it.  That's like saying one is entitled to a gift, which would no longer make it a gift.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:43:25 PM   
Homestead


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Entitlement is a bargaining chip, nothing more.

And a very poor one, in as much as it assumes far too much, without knowing what the deal really is.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Entitlement - 8/14/2006 11:58:35 PM   
sleazybutterfly


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I am not fond of that word, I don't think it conveys what I am trying to say.  I take care of whom I am with,  I don't see anything wrong with that.  If it is considered "entitlement" then it is, I consider it more just being "human"..giving/taking..loving/being loved..natural needs that pretty much everyone has.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious

Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 60
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