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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:03:38 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		But do you assume a relationship-or do you make it occur?

Entitlement is saying "you owe". In other words, you have an autoamtic expectation of an assumption being met. Pre loaded, ready to be fired off at whim.

It's a bit like looking down a gun barrel, to see how fast the bullet will come out when the trigger is pulled.  I would find it far kinder be be asked.

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:11:36 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

But do you assume a relationship-or do you make it occur?

Entitlement is saying "you owe". In other words, you have an autoamtic expectation of an assumption being met. Pre loaded, ready to be fired off at whim.

It's a bit like looking down a gun barrel, to see how fast the bullet will come out when the trigger is pulled.  I would find it far kinder be be asked.


I see your point.  I think though, that when two people enter into a relationship, maybe there is some sort of unspoken agreement.  You take care of me, I take care of you.  I can't see that it should be any different in a D/s relationship.. same thing, with a different title. 

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:16:44 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Define "care".

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:26:45 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps I cannot define that for you.  I mean, I can define it for me, but that is it.  We all have different things we would put in the category, so one person cannot speak for all.
 
For me, it's love, affection, support, being there, attention, basic care of the person.  What might fit under my cloud of "care", would not fit with yours, or anyone elses.  We all have our reasons for expecting, or wanting from someone what we do.  I might not want riches, but I want affection.. lots of it.  Another might not care for a hug, if they have a fur on their back.
 

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:30:39 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Now we get to the crux of the issue.

You can only define care for you. Your entitlement comes from trying to force others to meet your ideals of caring. And they aren't you.

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:36:54 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I know that I would make my needs, wants, and desires known to who I would be with.  If they aren't things he/she wants to give back, then there is no reason to go further.  I just think it's personal, I mean.. I am sure my Dom will inform me of every single thing he expects from me.. I am vocal enough to do the same.
 
 

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:49:06 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Expectations are like trees. They have roots. To understand them, you must trace them to thier tips, and see from what springs they were watered.

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:54:21 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I know why I want and need what I do.  I don't need to look, research, or walk down a trail.  I don't make excuses for what I want, nor do I apologize.  If they are things that someone thinks I shouldn't want or ask for just because I am a sub/slave, then I am just not the right one for them.  Seems to make it easier on both of us to get it out of the way.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 12:57:19 AM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Sometimes roots find poison springs,what then?

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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 1:01:54 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		They are only poison if I allow them to be.  You can take anything bad, or sad and let it bother you in those same ways.  I prefer to take things and make them positive, to make the most out of them.  I need love, affection, protection etc.. I know why I need them and I am very clear about it.  Where those needs/feelings come from is not the issue, it's what I do with those needs/feelings that makes a difference.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Homestead)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 5:29:31 AM   
slve2MastersWill


Posts: 38
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline 		I am usually not one that responds to posts but everyones opinion is helping me with my issues of expecting, wanting, needing. I hate disappointment more than anything so if I don't expect anything, if I don't want anything, and if I don't need anything than I wont be disappointed.
 
I don't think it is wrong to expect anything, but there is a lot less heartache if I don't.
 
I have talked to  Doms and I have spoken to sub/slaves and everyone has a different interpretation for this lifestyle. I don't think there is a right or wrong. We all expect to find the one that will treat us with respect, cares for us, and cherishes us.
 


 

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 8:37:15 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I think it is more a matter of accepting the way things are, than "I'm not going to expect anything so I don't get disappointed."  For me, anyway.  I can still hope, and have desires, but if some of those hopes and desires are not realized (ie; I hoped he would call last night but he isn't feeling well and fell asleep earlier than planned), I might feel disappointed, but not to the point of being angry or bitter.  I simply accept how things are.  Last night I figured he had fallen asleep early, and was glad, as I knew he needed to rest and get better.  Sure I would have loved to talk to him, but I wasn't entitled to a phone call.  I wasn't upset that he didn't call.

It's a small example, but applies to all areas.  I can hope for and want, but just because I want something, does not mean I am entitled to it.

I am surprised at how many do not like that word, and who have asked me here or on the other side if I meant something different.   No, I felt entitled at one point, and now I no longer do, and that is what I was expressing.  To have worked through that issue in my head and heart has rendered me a lot less stress and a lot more freedom to just be happy and enjoy.

I am also surprised at how many feel this is a negative thing.  I think they forget (or don't realize), I have shed such entitlement while in a healthy relationship with a deeply trusted man who cares very much for me, and for people in general. 


(in reply to slve2MastersWill)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 8:59:06 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
I am also surprised at how many feel this is a negative thing.  I think they forget (or don't realize), I have shed such entitlement while in a healthy relationship with a deeply trusted man who cares very much for me, and for people in general. 

I think the negativity comes when it goes to the extreme of "not entitled to ANYTHING"

Why be in a relationship with someone if you would not take upon expectations/entitlements/responsibilities within that relationship?  As I put in my post, slaves tend to have far fewer entitlements when it comes to a specific thing, but this does not relinquish entitlement overall.  You are entitled to be his slave and be treated as such.  You are entitled to this because it is the commitment you have made together.

Other people are using entitled in a different way in terms of "did something to deserve something else" and while I get that perspective, it's not how I use the term.  You didn't become a slave in order to deserve being treated as a slave.  You chose to be a slave in a relationship, and with that comes an expectation, understanding and entitlement to being treated as a slave.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:13:04 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think the negativity comes when it goes to the extreme of "not entitled to ANYTHING"

I think the sentence changes its meaning when we change the emphasis:  I am not ENTITLED to anything.  He may give me all that I can possibly want or need, but that is his gift to me.  That is my perspective, anyway.

quote:


Why be in a relationship with someone if you would not take upon expectations/entitlements/responsibilities within that relationship? 

While I did make some comments about expectations, I said nothing about responsibilities.  Expectations form out of knowing a person intimately and knowing what he believes in and how he believes others should be treated.  Expectations may also change, adapting to life as it comes.  For example, I expected him to call last night because he intended to.  But I was not entitled to that call, nor did I think it a big deal that he didn't.

I believe any property owner has responsibilities to said property, unless the owner simply doesn't care about the property's demise.  As a land owner, I could let weeds completely take over and hide the beauty of the landscape, but why would I?  Why would I not prefer to benefit from all the land has to offer?  However, it is the land owner's CHOICE to develop the property or to let it go to hell.  And while I know I am not an actual parcel, once I knew him enough to want to give myself to him more than anything, it was up to him to decide what to do with me after that.  This is where TRUST came in.  Knowing him as I did, I trusted he would care for me.  In fact I asked him, before I ever asked him to train me as his, "Will you care for me?"  Meaning, will you care enough about me to not drive me into hell? 

quote:


As I put in my post, slaves tend to have far fewer entitlements when it comes to a specific thing, but this does not relinquish entitlement overall.  You are entitled to be his slave and be treated as such.  You are entitled to this because it is the commitment you have made together.

I agree and disagree at the same time.  I am entitled to be treated as his slave, yes, because I AM his slave.  But "to be treated as his slave" means to be treated as he wishes to treat me.  I do not call those shots.  It just so happens I absolutely love how he treats me and flourish from it.  But he could change that at any time if he wishes.  Knowing him as I do, I expect that he won't.  But he could.

quote:


Other people are using entitled in a different way in terms of "did something to deserve something else" and while I get that perspective, it's not how I use the term.  You didn't become a slave in order to deserve being treated as a slave.  You chose to be a slave in a relationship, and with that comes an expectation, understanding and entitlement to being treated as a slave.


Well yes, but in the way that I stated above.  He decides how a slave is treated.  Because I was so impressed with the way in which he treats a slave, I was thrilled when he chose to take me as his.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:17:18 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slve2MastersWill


I don't think it is wrong to expect anything, but there is a lot less heartache if I don't.
 



Do you really feel there is less heartache?  I am not picking on you, I am wondering.
 
I have sort of done this before, went in not really expecting anything, thinking I wouldn't get hurt as much if nothing happened.  It didn't work at all.  I think in a lot of ways, we automatically put those things out there.  We expect something, maybe if nothing else, we expect that we will get "nothing".  Can you totally snuff out that part of you that hopes this time will be different?
 
Doesn't  it cause some sort of hurt, by telling yourself that "nothing will happen this time" or "I shouldn't expect this from them"?  In some ways this might actually be as deep of a heartache, just a different one.

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to slve2MastersWill)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:24:34 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
Doesn't  it cause some sort of hurt, by telling yourself that "nothing will happen this time" or "I shouldn't expect this from them"?  In some ways this might actually be as deep of a heartache, just a different one.

It is my opinion that unless you truly believe that to your core, you are fooling yourself. 

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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:36:35 AM   
slve2MastersWill


Posts: 38
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

quote:

ORIGINAL: slve2MastersWill


I don't think it is wrong to expect anything, but there is a lot less heartache if I don't.
 



Do you really feel there is less heartache?  I am not picking on you, I am wondering.
 



its ok its a question.. I have a weird way of dealing with things as you can tell.. I have always been like this since I can remember. Its not like nothing happens, i just don't expect them to happen. Yes i love interaction with my Master as much as any other does but he can't always be there. If i expect him to be with me at all times i just be pissed off when he is not. Therefore if he shows up at my door tonight and i didn't expect it the happier i am.. I am not sure if that makes any sense, but thats just a way to help me deal with some of my issues...

< Message edited by slve2MastersWill -- 8/15/2006 9:38:21 AM >

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RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:42:58 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I know I have trouble with the word "entitlement" because I think it is at the basis of all that is wrong in this country. I posted once that I thought everyone had the right to clean water, food and shelter and medical care, and I was kinda flamed for that belief. I have to say, I do not see "rights" the same as "entitlements". Entitlement has this weight of "deserving" or "meriting" something, whereas "rights" do not.

I have given my Daddy the rights over certain aspects of myself and as time goes on I will give him more. He is not entitled to this, I have given it to him. You said that whatever your Master gives you is a gift, but I have to ask aren't these entitlements gifts from you also? You had to give it to him at some point, because you didn't submit to any old body. You were deliberate in your submission weren't you? If he were entitled, you wouldn't have to give him anything, he would have just taken it. 

You also stated that he could change anytime and you would remain his, and I have to ask if that is really true. I would not stay with someone that abused me for example, or that I found out committed crimes of some sort. I am sure your master would never do anything like that, but I am speaking of the hypothetical, if someone turns out to be the opposite of what they purported to be, would you stay out of some notion of "ownership"? Can they lose their entitlement? If they can lose their entitlement, were they ever really entitled? We can lose our rights if we abuse them.

I think that giving up a sense of entitlement like you have is a good thing no matter what the reason. You still have human rights. The right to be free from abuse, the right to food, the right to shelter, the right to feel safe and have your needs met... but you are not entitled to these things, no one is. If we were we would all have them, and we don't.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 9:54:45 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		So, by not expecting things, you are all the more happy when they do happen.  Where as if you did expect it, then it didn't happen, you would only be let down. 
 
I guess a good portion of us have done this at some point.  It must be sort of hard to do this on a day to day basis though.  Even when I have tried to do it, my mind naturally has hope or expectations.  Like when it's my birthday.  I try to convince myself that it won't matter if no one remembers, but then when no one does, I am still hurt, because some part of me, somewhere actually thought they would.
 
Perhaps I would be better off if I didn't expect anything, it's just convincing my mind/heart not to that is the problem.
 
 

_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to slve2MastersWill)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Entitlement - 8/15/2006 10:16:57 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I thought the whole point of training was some sort of Skinner expectation response, but that was just my impression. Human being must have some sort of expectations in the world or we couldn't function... we expect the sun to come up tomorrow, we expect that we will have to work to get a paycheck, we expect that we will have to cook dinner tonight, we expect that if we sit on a chair it will support our weight... we also expect our mate to behave certain ways and if they do not meet those expectations it is natural to become concerned or insecure with them... we cannot help it, it is human nature to have these annoying things called expectations.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)
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