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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 8:21:26 AM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Hmm, let's not pull politics into this, as it may derail us into a political debate.  My definitions would be 1 and 3.  It could not be 2 as my slavery is not part of a government program.

...modified to add....yet.   (just for good fun)

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 8/16/2006 8:37:28 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 8:30:03 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Hmm, let's not pull politics into this, as it may derail us into a political debate.  My definitions would be 1 and 3.  It could not be 2 as my slavery is not part of a government program.


Yes I agree.. she should actually stay with the Example she gave..

"That a person Raping another can be Entitled to Rape that person... Even if it is not consensual."

I fail to see where the definitions make Non-consensual Rape an entitlement or make a person Entitled to take such actions.

Is it a benefit of some law or contract that I have not heard of?

Is it a priviledge (something granted to another) that we can rape another person Non-consensual?

simply put your example of a person raping another can be considered an entitlement or a person being entitled to it is just silly.... so you attempt to change the analogy to attempt prove flawed logic.  Simply you don't apply the word as it means.




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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 8:34:48 AM   
Homestead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Hmm, let's not pull politics into this, as it may derail us into a political debate.  My definitions would be 1 and 3.  It could not be 2 as my slavery is not part of a government program.


Yes I agree.. she should actually stay with the Example she gave..

"That a person Raping another can be Entitled to Rape that person... Even if it is not consensual."

I fail to see where the definitions make Non-consensual Rape an entitlement or make a person Entitled to take such actions.

Is it a benefit of some law or contract that I have not heard of?

Is it a priviledge (something granted to another) that we can rape another person Non-consensual?

simply put your example of a person raping another can be considered an entitlement or a person being entitled to it is just silly.... so you attempt to change the analogy to attempt prove flawed logic.  Simply you don't apply the word as it means.





If one has been given blanket consent in advance to take sex even if there is no desire to give it-is it not still consent?

Where is the rape?

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 8:36:34 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead
If one has been given blanket consent in advance to take sex even if there is no desire to give it-is it not still consent?

Where is the rape?

Rape was in her hypothetical question of, if my  Master turned and raped another human being, would I stay with him?  It's somewhere on page 3 or 4 I think :)

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 8:48:40 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

If one has been given blanket consent in advance to take sex even if there is no desire to give it-is it not still consent?

Where is the rape?


but where did I say that consent was given in the first place .. It wasn't ....

Secondly... If consent has be granted... but it may also be taken away.  I may have the entitlement to Rape my girl.... but maybe just maybe she might take that priviledge away from me some day.  She just might take it away when I choose to exercise my entitlement.  Sometimes unless exercised.. one doesn't really know if the entitlement is of much value.  It is just words until it is demonstrated!  This is the tricky thing about entitlements.. we can say we have them ... but until we exercise them we will not know if they are just illusionary.

which lead me to the next aspect of entitlements.  Our confidence in them!  How do you know that you are entitled to it.  and  how do you know that you are devoid of entitlements as girlie is expressing.  In some cases I suspect we can have confidence that the entitlement exists without exercising it.  But in some cases to have confidence that it exists we must exercise it.  Entitlements are much like trust in this way.  We really don't know that trust exists until it is actually tested in some regards and in others  we know that trust exists without it being tested.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 9:12:04 AM   
Homestead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

If one has been given blanket consent in advance to take sex even if there is no desire to give it-is it not still consent?

Where is the rape?


but where did I say that consent was given in the first place .. It wasn't ....

Secondly... If consent has be granted... but it may also be taken away.  I may have the entitlement to Rape my girl.... but maybe just maybe she might take that priviledge away from me some day.  She just might take it away when I choose to exercise my entitlement.  Sometimes unless exercised.. one doesn't really know if the entitlement is of much value.  It is just words until it is demonstrated!  This is the tricky thing about entitlements.. we can say we have them ... but until we exercise them we will not know if they are just illusionary.

which lead me to the next aspect of entitlements.  Our confidence in them!  How do you know that you are entitled to it.  and  how do you know that you are devoid of entitlements as girlie is expressing.  In some cases I suspect we can have confidence that the entitlement exists without exercising it.  But in some cases to have confidence that it exists we must exercise it.  Entitlements are much like trust in this way.  We really don't know that trust exists until it is actually tested in some regards and in others  we know that trust exists without it being tested.


I was making an observation about blanket consent.

And you are correct, the perogtive may be withdrawn at any time. As far as tesing an entitlement? That can be tricky. It depends a great deal on the investment and desire to see it through that the parties involved will ACTUALLY make.

Bear with me here on one example I used to test in the past.

I wanted to see just how far someone would go in a blanket consent scene. She wanted to do a play rape. Now I could get in serious trouble if she took back the entitlement, and went to the law after. I wanted to see just how much control I could take away without breaking her. In another way, I wanted to cover my ass during the test. No visible marks and something extreme enough in content to really push her emotionally.

And at the last, something that no one would really have legal recourse for. (yes, I did not entirely trust her emotional stability,which was the entire point of doing this.)

Here is what I came up with. I spread eagled her, standing up against st andrew's cross. Padded cuffs. I cut her clothes off with scissors. Inserted a bardex bulb up her rectum, and inflated it. And then put her in a really thick cloth diaper, with snap on plastic pants to cover it. I let about a quart of the enema  empty slowly into her, until the cramps had her begging for release from the discomfort.. Then released the pressure on the bulb. The predictable happened, and there was a humiliating mess as the nozzle was pushed out.. It took about half an hour for her to void the whole thing, and I was inches away the whole time, teasing her.

I took her in the bathroom when she finally finished, dropped the diapers, and hosed her off in the shower. We talked for a bit after, and I sent her home.

In a disposable diaper, "in case she leaked" Then I waited, to see what the repercussions would be. She expressed that her emotional comfort levels at the time were about rock bottom- but that she didn't feel broken by it-or any need to exact retribution.

This gave me confidence in her emotional content, and we went on to do her little scene-it was fun.

< Message edited by Homestead -- 8/16/2006 9:29:02 AM >

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 9:54:47 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		And the Norse entitled themselves to rape just about anyone they wanted to, and they entitled themselves through force to do so

I could bring up examples around the world of might makes right and equates with entitlement.. but I will not bother

Edited to add, I apologize for using Iraq in this discussion of entitlement, but everytime I hear that word GW comes into my mind under definition number 3... I guess because of this the word is completely ruined for me.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/16/2006 10:00:36 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 9:59:56 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

And the Norse entitled themselves to rape just about anyone they wanted to, and they entitled themselves through force to do so

I could bring up examples around the world of might makes right and equates with entitlement.. but I will not bother


you state an example but you don't express how it is an entitlement.  maybe because you can't

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 10:04:59 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Read this part of the definition:

1 a : the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract

People were entitled to slaves nonconsensually before the Civil War, the law upheld it. What upholds laws? Guns often, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral... but I digress.. here is the definition I really have trouble with in terms of entitlement

3 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges


You can believe you are entitled to something and not be morally. I go back to my nonconsensual slave example.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 10:15:36 AM   
juliaoceania


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entitleOne entry found for entitle.





Main Entry: en·ti·tle
Pronunciation: in-'tI-t&l, en-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): en·ti·tled; en·ti·tling /-'tIt-li[ng], -&l-i[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French entitler, from Late Latin intitulare, from Latin in- + titulus title
1 : to give a title to : DESIGNATE
2 : to furnish with proper grounds for seeking or claiming something <this ticket entitles the bearer to free admission>



I would ask, what is proper grounds? Lawyers fight over terms like this all the time, if a law was passed entitling people to rape others (and they are in other parts of the world), they would be entitled. Might makes right is often the only entitlement people have, but it gave them the right to take it. Companies lobby to pass laws to entitle themselves to natural resources and rape the Earth, I guess they are entitled.

My point is this, I am using the word differently than you, and to me it has a spiritual component, it doesn't make me wrong. Why does there have to be a right and a wrong for you? I do not understand?





_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 10:17:46 AM   
Homestead


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Status: offline 		Morals are societal constructs.

And in some past societies slavery was morally accepted. Some defined limits on how slaves could be treated, others did not. The limits on consenting slavery depend almost entirely on just how far the slave desires to entitle the Master.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 10:21:56 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Read this part of the definition:

1 a : the state or condition of being entitled : RIGHT b : a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract

People were entitled to slaves nonconsensually before the Civil War, the law upheld it. What upholds laws? Guns often, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is moral... but I digress.. here is the definition I really have trouble with in terms of entitlement

3 : belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges


You can believe you are entitled to something and not be morally. I go back to my nonconsensual slave example.


once again you don't actually state where entitlement exists for a person to rape another.

so let me help you...

In the context of the Viking and Norse society and many other societies in culture.  It was there belief and understood concept that other societies where their lessers.. In fact they where peoples that were nothing more than slaves for the taking.  There specific society held these beliefs.. there society gave priviledges to the warriors over these other peoples.  So when the Viking came to raid ... There social structured deemed it acceptable if not expected that they would if they so choose Rape the woman of the other cultures.  In essense... it was the belief that they had within there society that transfered priviledges to the warriors of their society.

Fast forward hundreds of years.....

in the not so distant past... it was considered the duty and responsibility of the wife to perform sexual service to the husband.  The idea and concept that a husband could rape their wife was unheard of.  Again... it comes from the belief that existed at the time within society with regards to the Husband/Wife relationship of the day.

As our beliefs change so do entitlements that exist within our society as a whole.

Secondly, nothing of beliefs state that it must be moral.  There was a day that societies scarificed humans to gods.. it was their beliefs... we in this day and age largely consider such things as immoral... but yet at the time... I suspect that none question the morality of the belief.  It was just their beliefs.  Just as Viking Raped...

Lets not forget that in some of today's cultures that women are given to men in marriage... within those societies it is an accepted pracitice.. but largely in our western culture this belief is not accepted and to some is even considered immoral due to a lack of consent.  You can be sure that in these types of societies that the Fathers feel an entitlement to give their daughters away... but yet... as a Father.. I do not feel I have this entitlement nor would I want it.  Our societies are different... our beliefs are different

_____________________________

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 10:29:33 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Hence definition 3, and many people have an issue with definition 3, because we can believe we are entitled to whatever we like, but that doesn't make it so... again I say, not wrong, just different interpretations of the same word. I have a negative connotation when I hear it, and you do not.. although I need to probably quit assigning values to words, my Dom just hasn't managed to beat that out of me yet (WEG). The rape example was one he and I discussed over the phone, but I think that was because of the connotation that we were giving the word at the time of the conversation. (I talk to him about threads like these because it gives us something interesting to chew on).

I will say earlier I did make a mistake in saying that ownedgirlie was using one word when perhaps she should have used another.. that wasn't for me to say.. and owned.. I was wrong about that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 11:00:08 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I will say earlier I did make a mistake in saying that ownedgirlie was using one word when perhaps she should have used another.. that wasn't for me to say.. and owned.. I was wrong about that.

No worries, Julia, many said that as well.  It is all a part of conversing and understanding.  So many great posts here have given me more stuff to chew on.  I'm appreciative of everyone's posts and contributions to this thread, as the sharing of differing opinions helps us to shape our own.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 11:50:48 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hence definition 3, and many people have an issue with definition 3, because we can believe we are entitled to whatever we like, but that doesn't make it so...


people have trouble with definition #3 because they choose not to apply the full contents of the definition.  They generally neglect the "privilege" part.

As girlie has learned to minimize her thoughts on what she believes herself entitled to from her Master and reflect that what she does gain to be a priviledge.

So do so many Master's need to refocus on the realization that what they are entitled to from their slaves is a privilege and not some devine right inspired by the power's of Dominance. 

Dominants and submissives alike earn their entitlements.  Entitlements are Earned Privileges.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 11:59:15 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hence definition 3, and many people have an issue with definition 3, because we can believe we are entitled to whatever we like, but that doesn't make it so...


people have trouble with definition #3 because they choose not to apply the full contents of the definition.  They generally neglect the "privilege" part.

As girlie has learned to minimize her thoughts on what she believes herself entitled to from her Master and reflect that what she does gain to be a priviledge.

So do so many Master's need to refocus on the realization that what they are entitled to from their slaves is a privilege and not some devine right inspired by the power's of Dominance. 

Dominants and submissives alike earn their entitlements.  Entitlements are Earned Privileges.


If all the meanings of a word were the same they would not be numbered to show they were different with different meanings.. they would be listed without numbers. I do not see a government entitlement as the same thing as a belief of entitlement... they are not the same thing to me, or in the minds of many people. Words are not static and their meanings and connotations and what they denote changes over time and in the context of their use.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 12:28:57 PM   
KnightofMists


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Status: offline 		but the point of this thread is not about government entitlements is it?... we are talking about entitlements within a relationship context.  Be that relationship M/s or D/s  or maybe just typical mainstream boyfriend/girlfriend.

So really what is the point of your last post? 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 12:39:21 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

This gave me confidence in her emotional content, and we went on to do her little scene-it was fun.


Thanks for sharing... It is interesting that earning entitlements within a relationship we also building confidence and trust as well. 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Homestead)
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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 12:44:37 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

but the point of this thread is not about government entitlements is it?... we are talking about entitlements within a relationship context.  Be that relationship M/s or D/s  or maybe just typical mainstream boyfriend/girlfriend.

So really what is the point of your last post? 


I brought up that because you said I was not applying the full definition
quote:

people have trouble with definition #3 because they choose not to apply the full contents of the definition.  They generally neglect the "privilege" part


All three are different definitions.

On edit I misread your post, I must say I do not understand misreading the privilege part, belief you deserve a privilege? I do not understand

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/16/2006 12:47:38 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Entitlement - 8/16/2006 12:51:37 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I brought up that because you said I was not applying the full definition
quote:

people have trouble with definition #3 because they choose not to apply the full contents of the definition.  They generally neglect the "privilege" part


All three are different definitions.


so you raise a red herring  instead....  #1 is the full definition of one... #2 is the full one of two and #3 is the full one of three.....

I agree each is a different definition but they are full definitions in their own right.  But they are three definitions that apply to different contexts... to which you havent' applied any of them effectively in my opinion.

Secondly... we are talking specifically about definition #3. which is the most applicable in a relationship context.  Thou an arguement could be made for #1.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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