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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/20/2006 11:30:29 PM   
WhiplashGirlChld


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quote:

What do you mean by values? No offence intended here but I'm not talking a set of detailed rules and scriptures, more a set of core values that underpin Christianity. I think you could ask any Christian minister if their church is founded on charity, empathy and fairness and they would say yes. My underestanding is these are the core values that lay the foundations for the 10 commandments.
  Well, the 10 Commandments are actually a quite specific set of rules, and none mention charity, empathy or fairness as specifics.  That said, there are churches I have attended, friends have attended, or I have otherise had exposure to that SAY they represent certain values, but behave differently.  It is my opinion that they represnet only a part of the Christian landscape, so to speak.  Some, I am sure, would say the same of my church.

quote:

I certainly wasn't criticising anyone's religious preference. My criticism was of the church as an institution because recent events have shown that when push comes to shove the Anglican Church can't show the charity it is supposed to have in abundance.
  I agree - there is much to criticize in organized relgion, both historically and presently.  My only point is to suggest making blanket statements about an entire faith based on the actions of a vocal minority is not particularly accurate, nor helpful in terms of a thoughtful debate on the true evils perpetrated in the name of religion.  There are many such evils.  It takes the systematic action of both the religious and non-religious to bring about positive change.

< Message edited by WhiplashGirlChld -- 8/20/2006 11:32:40 PM >

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 12:04:55 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		The 10 commandments may not mention these core values but like anything in life a set of rules and scriptures are underpinned by core values whether it be a business, a political ideology or a religion.

Paragraph 2 - I'm yet to see anyone make a blanket statement about religion or faith on this thread so I think we're ok on that score.

(in reply to WhiplashGirlChld)
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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 1:06:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ok, so we're agreed the church represents Christian values. If you asked your local vicar/priest if they (and the church they belong to) value charity, fairness and empathy what do you think the answer would be?


You were very good at understanding the role of religion when it came to Israel but now you are not so hot on the role of religion when it comes to christianity. The church is about the soul, not human rights. Christianity was attractive to many pagans because it promised them a here after and redemption and not because of its temporal values. The catholic church has confession to cleanse the soul because it understood the nature of human beings and getting people into heaven was/is more important than temporal life. Any christian values that are similar to human rights are incidental and if it views homosexuality as wrong, it is wrong, regardless of how secular life views human rights.

One of the reasons I am not a christian is because I have little interest in the here after and prefer to concentrate on the here and now and concentrate on humanitarianism. If a man is gay and can't abstain from homosexual activity and make sacrifices to uphold the creed of his religion, he should consider leaving that religion. It is not for people to change the religion but to change for the religion because they proffess to believe in that religion. If people make what they will of a religion, the religion will cease to be. Simple.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 6:20:36 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It is not for people to change the religion but to change for the religion because they proffess to believe in that religion. If people make what they will of a religion, the religion will cease to be. Simple.

I believe that I understand your arguement, but I don't agree with it, completely at least.

I do agree that there is no point in having rules, if each person just obeys/disobeys as the please, they are meaningless.

However, in my opinion, there is just no need for the set of rules to be forever static.  I don't think it need cause the collapse of a system to alter the rules, by consensus, and over time.  In fact, one can argue the opposite.  If societal norms and practices have changed over the centuries, but the ideas of the church have not, then *that* lack of fit or relevance if you will, can cause the collapse of the system.  Church membership is, after all a voluntary practice.  I am surprised that issues like opposition to birth control and ordainment of women haven't caused more people to leave the Catholic church, for example.

For an example of a set of rules that change over time without catastrophe, consider the laws of any government.  One can certainly argue that having the flexibility to alter laws over time is an essential need for stability of the system.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 6:45:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I concede that even a church has at least modify and adapt to an ever changing world but if a church changes its fundemental creed it ceases to be the church it was at its origin. Churches aren't political parties that need to constantly adapt to changes in society.

I think there have been less problems in the Catholic church despite its adherence to orthodoxy because catholics see themselvs as being part of the original and true church. Protestants have at sometime in thier past ancestry already shunned orthodoxy and once you have shunned orthodoxy once, it is easier to do it again.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 7:05:28 AM   
Dauric


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

Church membership is, after all a voluntary practice. 


It wasn't always voluntary, and until 30-40 years ago even when it was voluntary there were prices to be paid for choosing not to participate. Even with  the choice to participate or not, there are many sects that treat membership as mandatory, not voluntary. Evangelical Baptists as a paticularly prime example. Sure they pay lip service to choosing them, but if you don't then you are going to Hell ("Hell" being defined as having an evangelical baptist following you around and preaching at you until you convert).

The Catholic Church is mired in it's own authoritarian history, lusting after the power it once had to bend kings to the pope's will and murder people with impunity.

$0.02,

Dauric.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 7:25:21 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric
Even with  the choice to participate or not, there are many sects that treat membership as mandatory, not voluntary. Evangelical Baptists as a paticularly prime example. Sure they pay lip service to choosing them, but if you don't then you are going to Hell ("Hell" being defined as having an evangelical baptist following you around and preaching at you until you convert).

I have had that experience of being proselytized to, and then, even though I listened respectfully, when I did not succumb to the pressure, and said instead "I am able to respect your beliefs and I want you also to respect my beliefs"... I got the joyful reply, said through a cruel smile "I want to be there when you meet your Maker".  To which I answered "That's not very Christian of you".  It made a very strong impression on me, the dark and deep ill-will that this person had for me, just because I wouldn't agree with him.

I have met some very sincere persons of strong faith, who were truely of good hearts, and who genuinely tried to do their best to follow the spirit of Jesus' example in their actions.  I have great admiration and affection for these people.  If they were the rule, rather than the exception, in fact, I would readily join the church to join in its good work.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 11:31:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Edited this post out. I got carried away trying to have a dig at daddy.   lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/21/2006 11:35:01 AM >

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 11:40:30 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Edited this post out. I got carried away trying to have a dig at daddy.   lol

I'll tell you what seeks - since this appears to be one of your favorite occupations, I am putting you on "block" and "hidden".  That's what it's for.  Go ahead and do your worst.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 11:59:23 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I have met some very sincere persons of strong faith, who were truely of good hearts, and who genuinely tried to do their best to follow the spirit of Jesus' example in their actions.  I have great admiration and affection for these people.  If they were the rule, rather than the exception, in fact, I would readily join the church to join in its good work.

Whilst I indeed echo your sentiments of sincere persons, I really felt the urge to just add - as a christian myself - that joining the church because of the acts of others wouldn't be a particularly positive reason.  One should not accept a faith - any faith - on the position, stance or acts of others, but on the convictions of ones own heart.  There are too many people who attend churches now, simply because its a big church, or it has a certain personality at the church.  And that isn't christianity - that is nothing but pure vanity.
 
(Not that I am accusing yourself of vanity - and I am not sure if my words are making my perception particularly clear - but attending a church on the work of others alone, doesn't justify the action.  If I have offend unintentionally, I apologise in advance as it is not my intention).
 
A wise woman - and dominant - once stated to me that to see the change, one must also be the change and sometimes, that means working from the inside.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 12:20:19 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
quote:

I have met some very sincere persons of strong faith, who were truely of good hearts, and who genuinely tried to do their best to follow the spirit of Jesus' example in their actions.  I have great admiration and affection for these people.  If they were the rule, rather than the exception, in fact, I would readily join the church to join in its good work.

Whilst I indeed echo your sentiments of sincere persons, I really felt the urge to just add - as a christian myself - that joining the church because of the acts of others wouldn't be a particularly positive reason.  One should not accept a faith - any faith - on the position, stance or acts of others, but on the convictions of ones own heart.  There are too many people who attend churches now, simply because its a big church, or it has a certain personality at the church.  And that isn't christianity - that is nothing but pure vanity.
 
(Not that I am accusing yourself of vanity - and I am not sure if my words are making my perception particularly clear - but attending a church on the work of others alone, doesn't justify the action.  If I have offend unintentionally, I apologise in advance as it is not my intention).
 
A wise woman - and dominant - once stated to me that to see the change, one must also be the change and sometimes, that means working from the inside.
 
Peace and Rapture


Well, not all feel as you do.  I am an agnostic, and am not likely to enter any church as a member because I believe it's proposals of the supernatural.

The last time that I regularly attended a church, the pastor there knew very well that I was an agnostic, as he visited my house now and then, as did I his, and we freely discussed religion and science.  He was also a friend of mine.  He never said that I shouldn't come to church unless I believed.  The principle reason that I went there, was because he was the head - he is one of the people that I spoke of.

It's been many years since I read the Bible, but as I recall anyway, Jesus didn't discriminate against nonbelievers, nor did he seem to place a great deal of stock in the formal religious organizations of his time - in fact, he warned us of their influence.

I look into someone's heart - that's how I measure them, very simple.  All other considerations are subordinate.  If I like what I see - I want to be with that person - that's what I was really saying.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 1:01:24 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I look into someone's heart - that's how I measure them, very simple.  All other considerations are subordinate.  If I like what I see - I want to be with that person - that's what I was really saying.

Thank you for making your position clear.  I work upon the same principles.
It was that your statement before sparked in me the thought, that harks back to another thread ( by erin - on changes of beliefs and whether one expected their charge to submit to said change).  I know that isn't what you were hinting at  - its just my overly deep thought process.
 
I love and have deep connections with different people.  As you say, looking into someones heart (or even soul) is a wonderful way to measure a person.  But I would never consider attending a church, just because a particular person attended.  I would visit, if they asked me, but to attend (regularly), I would have to accept the churches ways.
I think what I am trying to say is that for me - if someone liked me and found me genuine and decided to attend church because of me -  I would be flattered, yet sad.  For I am not the reason one should attend any church, or accept any faith. (Hopes that makes some sort of sense - apologises to anthro for swerving offtrack).
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 1:39:34 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
 I would never consider attending a church, just because a particular person attended.  I would visit, if they asked me, but to attend (regularly), I would have to accept the churches ways.
I think what I am trying to say is that for me - if someone liked me and found me genuine and decided to attend church because of me -  I would be flattered, yet sad.  For I am not the reason one should attend any church, or accept any faith.
 
I must not be communicating clearly, because that isn't really what I am saying, but that's fine, we are off-topic here... be well.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 1:43:14 PM   
darkinshadows


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It's probably me, I tend to start with the deep thinking and wander off course and lose focus on whats being said... so I apologise.
(I do enjoy your threads btw)
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 1:48:14 PM   
SavageFaerie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think there have been less problems in the Catholic church despite its adherence to orthodoxy because catholics see themselvs as being part of the original and true church. Protestants have at sometime in thier past ancestry already shunned orthodoxy and once you have shunned orthodoxy once, it is easier to do it again.


Catholics may think they so see themselves are part of the original and true church, but it is a known fact chrisitanity came before the Roman Catholics. So in my eyes their claim is null and void.

And yes I know a catholic person will or may argue that.

I also find it very interesting pagan and chrisitan holidays seem to coincide at or near the same time. so who came first?

this is the best I can do today in light of the tragic news I got last night.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 2:08:38 PM   
pounddog


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Status: offline 		 Dear  darkinshadows,    i went to Your Blog,  and got transported ,,,,to another space,    i will be back when i have time to Look at the wonder   very nice   in Love an submission ricky...

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 3:41:00 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SavageFaerie
I also find it very interesting pagan and chrisitan holidays seem to coincide at or near the same time. so who came first?



The pagan holidays preceded the Christian holidays where they coincide.  That's the general thinking I've come across and it makes sense if you consider religions tend to grow out of one another over time.
 
anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 3:50:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		There is more than enough records to show christian holidays were deliberately used to supercede pagan feasts and not only holy days were used to impose the new christian religion. I lived in a village with a 1200 year old church that was built on a pagan religious site as was the general policy of the early christians.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 6:30:05 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		I was once a biblical scholar and can answer all bible questions.  But there is not point since the bible is not true. 
If you study human history from the most ancient times till today, what you see is barbarity beyond human
comprehension.  Recently a Chinese journalist was locked in a coffin-sized cell with no light for 17 years.
He was know for being a very bright and witty person.  When he was freed he could no longer speak. He
spends his time laying on the ground in a fetal position.  The leader of Babylon tortured his enemies. The
Romans tortured all kinds of people.  The Catholic Church instituted 3 inquisitions and three crusades.
They slaughtered whole cities men, women and children.  They exterminated many peoples.  There
was Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Rwanda, Saddam Hussein.  Idi Amin inserted a rat into the vagina
of a female.  Saddam Hussein crushed an opponents balls with a vice grip. American Indians had all
kinds of ways to slowly torture their enemies to death.  The black plague wipped out 1/3 off of all
humanity.   In inquisition dungons, humans were tortured for weeks till they lost their minds. Mothers
and fathers were tortured till they accused all their children, all their friends, and all their relatives.
Humans have been slowly torn apart.  I can't begin to describe the human misery I have observed
in my own life.  Can there be a kind, loving, fatherly God?  I can't imagine what kind of God could
allow so much misery and suffering.  When they tortured the leader of The Knights Templer first
they burned off his toes, then they slowly burned his feet to the bone, then his calves.  They
pulled out his finger nails, and cut of his fingers a piece at a time. They forced mothers to
consume barley grain then forced them to consume water.  The barley would slowly expand
and their stomach would burst.  Can there be a compassionate God that rules this world.  How
I wish we could band together and show each other love and compassion, and transform
this Hell into something a little less Hellish.  I don't think we can imagine the despair of
so many peoples who were exterminated by the Romans.  The history of mankind is a
history of murder, torture, and barbaric behavior. 

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/21/2006 6:37:20 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		1. If there was a God, he would give children diseases that cause them to
slowly die in agony.

2. If there is a God who is our parent, and we are His children, then He is
  guilty of child abuse. Parents do all they can to protect their children.

3.  Man are taught to do evil in the name of God because that is what
   many religions teach like Wahhabism and Christianity.  Belief in
   God almost always comes with blind faith in some dogma.  As
   soon as humans give up their reason to follow God, they can be
   encouraged to do just about anything.  Albigensians, Apostolici, Arians, Beguines, Bogomils, Beghards, Brethren of the Free Spirit, Cathars, Fraticelli, Gnostics, Hussites, Huguenots, Knights Templar, Lollards, Manichaeans, Moors, Waldensians, and "witches." They tortured and burned alive scientists, homosexuals, and philosophers.   Protestants slaughtered Catholics; Catholics slaughtered Protestants.  They all slaughtered Jews.   There were four inquisitions lasting over 1,000 years, and ending just recently.   Crusaders routinely slaughtered whole cities including old men, women, sick, poor, crippled and young children.  Their clarion call was: "Kill them all, let God sort them out."  Heretics were slowly, ruthlessly tortured for weeks on end in Medieval dungeons filled with real torture devices.  They were forced to denounce as heretics all their own family members, all their friends and relatives, and everyone they loved. They had their tongues cut out, than were placed on a low temperature fire that caused a slow agonizing death.

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