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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 5:54:41 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashGirlChld

quote:

Second paragraph - my comment was aimed at the church as an institution
  When you say you have made no blanket statements, perhaps you don't see the sentence above as I do.  You are speaking about "The Church", and while there are some specific tenets that seem to be common to all or most Christian sects, the actual practice of Christianity is wildly divergent, from sect to sect, from country to country, etc.  It's important to note, because even what "it means to be a Christian" is somewhat debatable.  One would like to think there is a core group of shared beliefs - but it's pretty easy for me to see people who SAY they believe something, but prove the do not by the way they behave.


Have to disagree to a certain extent.  There are different branches and sects, agreed - and they all follow their chosen edicts etc.  But the core of Chrisitianity is exactly the same for ALL sects.  Belief in the existance of Christ.  To be a christian is to be a follower of Christ.  That is what it means to be a Christian.
 
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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 5:58:42 AM   
WhipTheHip


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

I want to start a new relgion just based on loving-kindness, compassion, empathy, understanding, altruism, helping humans in need, helping the poor, helping the mentally ill, helping the orphan, the widow, and the disabled.  I want to start a new religion based on sharing and mutual caring.  A religion that rewards people who are accepting, tolerant and giving.  How would the world be different if we all had this religion. 


Sounds like Christianity, 2000 years ago, without the charismatic leader.
And how the world would be different?  For one, we obviously would have no freedom of religion.  For another, I don't think we'd get very far if we were all oh so compassionate. 
I know quite a few compassionate people, and while they're great at what they do, most of them admit on their own that they could never manage a business.  It takes people who can fire someone, who can make tough decisions, not lovey-dovey do gooders. Not saying there never has been a good manager of that sort, but the ones I know openly admit they couldn't do it. 
Yours,
benji


Yes my religion would be a lot like what Jesus preached.  But there would be no God.  No immorality regarding sexual matters.  And we would not be pacifists.  We believe it is up to us to make Earth heaven or make it Hell.  I suppose people who have heart but little intellect can't run a business, but if you have sufficient intelligence you learn what works and what doesn't work.  I took several failed business on the verge of bankruptcy and turned them into major successes.  I started each business by firing everyone, and hiring people who were super nice people, and super enthusiastic.  I also gave all prospective employees a ten question IQ test.   My employees loved me, and thought I was the best employer they ever had.   I befriended all my employees and they knew they could count on me to help them with any problem they had.  And I knew I could count on them.  I helped employees with drug problems get off drugs.  The spirit at my businesses were infectious.  Employees loved working for me even though I did not pay a lot.  And my customers loved my employees. 
 
One of the most successful businesses today is a software company that treats their employees like royalty.  They have virtually no turnover, and they rarely have to fire anyone.  It was featured on 60 Minutes and is considered the best company in the US to work for.  It is privately owned, and is one of the most successful businesses in its category.  Japanese businesses were very successful even though they took care of their employees like family and hardly ever fired anyone.  You don't have to be a mean boss to generate productivity.  My workers couldn't have worked any harder than they did, they worked as if each one was the owner of the company and making all the profit. And I spend all day thinking of way to make their life better.  I served them Jamacan Blue Mountain Coffee on many mornings.  I allowed them to drink a beer or two on job if they wanted.  I bought them each Walkmans and allowed them to listen to whatever music they liked.  I took them all on a barefoot sailing cruise to the Bahamas.  I allowed them to work whatever hours they wanted to work.  I would help them solve whatever problems they had outside of work.  I was a Daddy Dom employer. 

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 6:09:10 AM   
gooddogbenji


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Status: offline 		Like I said, I'm sure there have been great managers in the past that were compassionate, but those are few and far between.  It takes a very different style and unbelievably cunning hiring policies to not have a few bad apples.

Now, I would be curious as to what this amazing company is, and why it is not better known, if it is indeed the best company to work for.

As to your religion, do you seriously think people will be lovey-dovey dipshits when there is no God to fear and temptation near?  (I destroyed his idea with a clever rhyme!)

I know I do not join a religion which harms my own personal interests.  Be nice to people, sure!  Be nice to a guy who's not nice to me?  Nope.  He gets the finger.  In ass.  His girlfriend's. 

Yours,


benji

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 6:17:46 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


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Status: offline 		I do have to wonder how many people would run amok in the streets were it not for fear of a spanking by an invisible sky daddy. I like to think not many would, or else every meeting of every atheists association in the world would end in bloody chaos. But at the same time, it certainly seems as though there are a lot of people that behave only out of fear of some divine retribution,  bad karma, attracting the attention of the evil space clams, or disrupting the harmonic convergance of planet Nemesis while their moon is in Capricorn.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 6:29:03 AM   
gooddogbenji


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Status: offline 		I think that, in general, people are good.  Or, at least, not "run amok killing first born sons" kinda evil, mostly because that would worsen their quality of life.  However, a lot of people, upon finding a wallet, only try to return it because the Great Kahuna is watching.

If there is no fear of consequence, people will follow a religion for about 8 minutes, unless they see a puppy to grill first. 

God's best move was to create Satan.  Cuz really, how motivating would it be to know you're going to a place where we can do what we want, when we want, with no fear of retribution (Hell, not Earth!)

Yours,


benji



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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 8:37:40 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Well I don't believe in an invisible sky daddy persay and do my bestest to avoid amok running. I guess I believe more in a connecting energy with a cause and effect.


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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 1:58:50 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashGirlChld


quote:

Second paragraph - my comment was aimed at the church as an institution

When you say you have made no blanket statements, perhaps you don't see the sentence above as I do. You are speaking about "The Church", and while there are some specific tenets that seem to be common to all or most Christian sects, the actual practice of Christianity is wildly divergent, from sect to sect, from country to country, etc. It's important to note, because even what "it means to be a Christian" is somewhat debatable. One would like to think there is a core group of shared beliefs - but it's pretty easy for me to see people who SAY they believe something, but prove the do not by the way they behave.

Whiplash,

At the risk of persuing a point that's not really important in the grand schemes of things you'll notice you highlighted my quote:

Second paragraph - my comment was aimed at the church as an institute

You began by discussing the church (which is fine as it's connected to my point about the church) then you moved away from it to what is only a loosely connected issue i.e. what it means to individuals and sects to be a Christian.

My comment was aimed at the Anglican and Catholic churches as institutions and whether you like it or not the facts show that the church is backward on issues such as equality for homosexuals (and women for that matter). This is shown in the actual policies of the church.
I agree that there will be millions of Christians all over the world who do not agree with the church line - but whether you like it or not the church line is there for all to see.

No blanket statement is being made about the views of Christians - I am repeating actual, up-to-date church policy.

There are two separate issues here a) the institution b) values. Think of communist regimes - as institutions it is right to criticise them as totalitarian and corrupt. In terms of the values that underpin communism they are admirable. Just as corrupt forces dominated communism so corrupt forces have dominated the church.

The attached is a link from Barnados (a Christian Charity). They are clearly stating there are core values that underpin Christianity. How could there not be? Rules, scriptures, directions, actions are a result of the core values of the people making such rules, actions etc - for example, if you decide you can't vote for Bush because of the destruction he's causing this is a result of your core values.

http://www.barnardos.org.uk/who_we_are/basis_and_values.htm
 
You will notice Barnados point out that christian values include respecting the unique worth of every person and equal opportunity. An admirable standpoint to take and whether you like it or not it's a standpoint that the church, as an institution, does not follow.

I get the impression you are taking this as an attack on Christianity when if you look a bit closer I am saying the opposite of what you think I'm saying. This may seem like I'm playing the "I know someone" card to make my point but I will anyway - my own mother is by today's standards what you could call a devout Christian. However, she wouldn't be seen dead anywhere near a church - after about 25 years of regular attendance the stench of hypocracy became more than she was willing to put up with.

In reality, a church simply means "a gathering" and thus Christian values are not dictated by the church. Thus, an attack on the church is in no way an attack on Christianity.

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 3:17:47 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

I do have to wonder how many people would run amok in the streets were it not for fear of a spanking by an invisible sky daddy. I like to think not many would, or else every meeting of every atheists association in the world would end in bloody chaos. But at the same time, it certainly seems as though there are a lot of people that behave only out of fear of some divine retribution,  bad karma, attracting the attention of the evil space clams, or disrupting the harmonic convergance of planet Nemesis while their moon is in Capricorn.


If it were somehow possible to remove all the organizational controls in society, there would be chaos indeed...but only for a period of time.  Eventually, some new structures would come out of it and everyone for the most part would self-organize around them.  Besides, this is going to happen eventually anyway.  Nothing lasts forever.
 
anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 3:43:35 PM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
If it were somehow possible to remove all the organizational controls in society, there would be chaos indeed...but only for a period of time.  Eventually, some new structures would come out of it and everyone for the most part would self-organize around them. 
anthrosub

You are a thinker, anthrosub... have you been reading about principles of self-organization or just synthesized that?

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 5:22:33 PM   
NorthernSwitch11


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Joined: 6/18/2006
From: Newcastle, UK
Status: offline 		First time ive ever read the post summarys but this one kinds stood out, i like a good debate.  My personal opinion is that the bible as mentioned earlier is the biggest game of chinese whispers going and i would stretch that opinion to the Koran and other holy books.  They all centre round the same thing no matter which religion you practice, there is an all singing all dancing guy upstairs who you get to meet at the end, and they all practice common sense (commandments etc). I dont think for a minute it took the word of god to tell people killing was bad, they figured that out for themselves, maybe the bible was a way to preserve these beliefs in a way people would respect and follow through fear of heavenly retribution.  Various areas of religion change but these two pillar stones are the same accross the board could it be that people just need the belief of something after death, or the belief that in the worst of situations there is hope.  I am not religious in anyway but if anything bad happens in my life i automatically give it the "please god line" in my head, why? because i believe all this had to come from somewhere "god" is just a name ive been brought up with it could just as easily be Brian (pardon the pun) it makes no difference i just know without proof that there is something beyond and i dont need a bible to tell me. 

The books themeselves, take the bible for instance and no offence meant...thou shalt not kill, even though the church has been responsible for some terrible attrocities over the centuries.  Love thy brother but if he's gay he's evil.  God is all forgiving but if your bad your going to hell. 
The mormons, blood transfusions are evil despite saving lives
The koran, murder is evil but if anyone skits your religion kill em all in the name of jihad
I mean are these areas of the books written in plain english or is it down to one mans interpretation of the words as to their true meaning

I guess it really does boil down to faith because there is no real evidence that anyone is right and you cannot base it on a book written so long ago its origins cannot be verified.  For all we know all those years ago an alien landed and was proclaimed god because he could do things others considered as magic.  If a man transported back in time and took his car would he be worthy of a mention, how would he be portrayed, as a man, a magician, the new jesus, or god.

Im gonna carry on the way i go, no church visits or religious ceremonies, just be good to your fellow man or woman in a way you would expect yourself.  If everybody did this to the letter would the world be anything like it is now.








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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 5:41:15 PM   
WhipTheHip


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Like I said, I'm sure there have been great managers in the past that were compassionate, but those are few and far between.  It takes a very different style and unbelievably cunning hiring policies to not have a few bad apples.

Now, I would be curious as to what this amazing company is, and why it is not better known, if it is indeed the best company to work for.

As to your religion, do you seriously think people will be lovey-dovey dipshits when there is no God to fear and temptation near?  (I destroyed his idea with a clever rhyme!)

I know I do not join a religion which harms my own personal interests.  Be nice to people, sure!  Be nice to a guy who's not nice to me?  Nope.  He gets the finger.  In ass.  His girlfriend's. 

Yours,
benji


The comapny is a well known company.   They make analytical software for big businsses.


I think some people are naturally lovey-dovey.  I don't think they are dip-shits.  There is a great advantage to living in
a community were people love each other, help each other, and take care of each other.   Animals travel in packs for
this reason.  There is a reason why every acts the way the do, I would rather turn an enemy into a friend, than kill
an enemy.  Of course, sometimes it is not possible, and you have to fight.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/22/2006 5:57:06 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
If it were somehow possible to remove all the organizational controls in society, there would be chaos indeed...but only for a period of time.  Eventually, some new structures would come out of it and everyone for the most part would self-organize around them. 
anthrosub

You are a thinker, anthrosub... have you been reading about principles of self-organization or just synthesized that?


A little of both I think.  But I also read the book "How Nature Works" by Per Bak, which explores the principles of self-organization and I know a little bit about autopoesis and have been fascinated by that theory for some time.  I highly recommend the book...it's not only informative and thought provoking but entertaining as well.
 
For those wanting to know more about autopoesis, here's a link...
 
http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigois/auto/Main.html

Anthrosub

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 6:30:56 AM   
NakisisaX


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Status: offline 		the bible is for the group of people that wrote it to give themselves some religious self -worth after seeing everyone else they've invaded had their own civilization and religious self-worth.

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 7:17:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent 

In reality, a church simply means "a gathering" and thus Christian values are not dictated by the church. Thus, an attack on the church is in no way an attack on Christianity.

Regards


Anyone can define themselves as anything they want and it is irrelevant if anyone disagrees with them in western society (on the whole) so it is really irrelevant how one presents oneself to wider society. You will be judged by your actions and words. However, if someone defines themselves as a member of a church then it is the church that defines the core beliefs of its membership and if you don't believe in the core beliefs then you should leave that church.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The church is more about saving souls than temporal politics and is only interested in human rights as far as they helps to save souls. To talk about a church being backward is really a nonsense, since they are supposed to believe in an unchanging truth. Of course they do change because the temporal world does intervene but the temporal world to the church is temporary and not as important as the here after.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 2:35:58 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Absolutely wrong.

You seem to be arguing with my point that there are certain core values that underpin Christianity and in your argument you constantly make reference to the Church.

The Church is merely an instrument for people to express their Christianity i.e. the Church is not the belief system and does not dictate the core values of Christianity. You will find that many organisations outside of the Church point to core Christian values - I have posted a link of one such org. In a nutshell, the Church is in no way the exclusive owner of Christianity - you have it the wrong way around. As per my initial post, the Anglican Church is out of sync with Christian values - your insistence on limiting this discussion to the Church renders this discussion redundant.

In terms of the backward comment, as I'm starting to repeat myself I'll leave it at this - if you think that the stance of the Anglican Church on homosexuality within the church is not backward then that is your opinion. My view is discriminating on grounds of sexual persuasion is backward.

Regards

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 2:54:11 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Christianity is a religion, a religion is about a universal truth, not about political fashions of temporal life. You believe in it or you don't. You can call a religion backward but you are viewing religion through a political prism, not a religious prism. I don't believe in a religion but I don't find it difficult to see the difference between religion and politics. You seem to apply you own values to Christianity and I accept christianity like any religion can be all things to all men and Islam to you must be positively in the stoneage but they are beliefs in truth according to their adherents. However, if core values are so ethereal to be all things to all men they are hardly religions anymore.

Actually the term 'core values' sounds absolutely positively New Labour, now there is a party that likes to be all things to all men.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/24/2006 2:56:20 PM >

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 3:07:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		a) Yet again, you're making assumptions on my opinions (for example Islam) Why do you do this? If you're that interested in my opinion on Islam then read back to earlier posts and you'll see exactly what I think. Best not to make giant leaps based on an enhance your point of view.

b) Forget politics, it's not relevant here.

c) Applying my own values to Christianity? Have a read of the link I posted on Barnados - it will give you an indication of what a Christian Charity believes are core Christian values.

Regards

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 3:18:34 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi All

I'm back! Mind you, I'm on holiday from Saturday so dont flame me back as I wont necessarily be here to read it!

Common Sense is something that is subjective and which changes according to time, place and culture. A few hundred years ago it was common sense that a witch tied to a beam would float in the local pond, a few thousand years ago it was common sense that the king should be sacrified if the crops or the hunting failed. Nowadays its common sense to dismiss these things as superstitious nonsense.

I suggest "The Golden Bough" by Frazer, and "The Common Origins Of Pagan And Christian Beliefs" by Carpenter. Very enlightening works when considering the Bible and Christianity. These books describe how Christianity and the Bible are rooted right back to the time when we supposedly lived in caves and fur loin cloths were de rigeur, and how our social development and philo/theosophical development have progressed through the ages since. The "problem" for the Bible (and so Christianity and the Church as its adherents) is that being written down, it is incapable of any further progression and so is being left behind as society and our understanding of the world progresses around it regardless, as it always has and will.

As the Bible says, "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes) - but as the Bible doesnt allow, our understanding of what is under the sun is ever being renewed.
E

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RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 3:31:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		If you don't believe in a religious creed you don't believe in a religion even if you believe in many of its values. The religion becomes irrelevant.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: The Bible and Common Sense - 8/24/2006 3:38:20 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Christianity was sold on the promise of redemption and an afterlife. Though little is known about pre-christian northern European religions, there seems to be enough circumstantial evidence to suggest an after life was not promising if there was one. Certainly the Anglo-Saxons didn't seem hopeful of much after death. An Anglo-Saxon king said life was like a bird that flew into the beer hall from out of the dark, circled the fire before returning to the night. Most Anglo-Saxon poetry is about heroic deeds and leaving a good name in the world because ones name is all one had after death. Christianity promised something beyond life if one lived according to the church and that is what made christianity attractive. Most of what people seem to call christianity is humanitarianism because without a religious creed, that is what christian 'core values' to quote NG are.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/24/2006 3:39:18 PM >

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