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RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/20/2005 8:19:30 AM   
match2u


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		i have read all these posts here shown up and have to tell ....uuuhhhhmmmmm

so far, beyond the fact that this is a board for notes, discussion, opinion - guess You got my point -

myself i do not consider i have to agree with all - i tolerate and accept

and therefore its the same in every relationship you will find too.

they tolerate and accept - and finally have an agreement stated on the consent base with people involved in.

myself, even if i am a novice - i see that lifestyle far beyond right or wrong.

safe, sane and consensual - as long as that is given - hell ( sorry for my curse) do whatever will be fun.

and by the way - just in concerning about the notes of GoddessJules.
She is straight in telling Her opinion/ Her view - even in a sarcastic way -personally i like that a lot.
reminds me often about my smart ass sarcastic way too - smile -

just my opinion - and no, no , no there is no blame - judgement - or whatever included

hugs to all

petra



(in reply to GoddessJules)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/20/2005 8:22:35 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nella

i have seen a trend here and on other sites of, especialy new Dominats and put up a regimen for their submissives that are werry good for the Dom but that alow the sub nerly no time to herself or to do what she or he likes.

slaves and submissives are human beings to and we all need time to do what we like and we need a life situation that makes us happy. i am not saying that such a regimen would be bad for all, but i belive that many new Dominants have a werry unrealistic set of expertations. It is fine that the Dom desides what to have for dinner, and what to watch on TV, but if he or she never chose what the sub likes, there is bound to often be conflicts.

many expect a sub to be a shiny, good looking sex slave, a maid, a driver, work and earn money to the household, and never unwied themself, if the Dom loves Western shows then that is what they will always watch. Do not the sub also have a right to be happy, and even if the Dom do deside, should no the sub`s needs be taking into consideration to?


I agree with your observation, nella. Many new doms, myself included, initially focus on exerting their control without considering the long-term implications on the psyche of the submissive. It's not difficult to get caught up in experimentation, finding the outer extremes of one's control, testing the limits of one's power and forget to allow for the display of personality that caught one's attention to begin with.

Understanding that a submissive is more than her submission and that her needs include more than the need to be controlled makes the entire enterprise much more ambiguous and takes some experience to learn to properly juggle the intangibles. Those who approach D/s as a relationship with another human being rather than as simply an exchange of control for the purpose of engaging in certain activities are propably quicker to pick up on the finer nuances of balancing sometimes conflicting requirements. My personal opinion is that women probably understand this quicker than men do, although I have absolutely no evidence to back that position.

For myself, in my first relationship, I immediately tried to control every aspect of behavior. When my submissive wasn't completely compliant in every little thing, my first reaction was to blame the problem on her lack of submission. the idea that I was smothering her with my micromanagement never occurred to me and because she was as new as I she wasn't able to communicate what she was going through. It was very much a case of the blind leading the blind and extremely frustrating for us both.

I think a lot of that type of misery can be avoided by slowing down and learning to communicate well before jumping into a relationship and ensuring that the communication is never allowed to falter once the relationship has begun. Some will fare better than others, no doubt. Understanding the potential pitfalls, however, does a lot to help one avoid them.

Be well,
Timothy

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/20/2005 8:55:56 AM   
sweetpleaser


Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
Status: offline 		Very well said Timothy!!! That is exactly what nella meant I believe (forgive me if I'm wrong nella). Sometimes I don't express myself well in posts and expect you all to mind-read. Yes, in the beginning newer Doms do try to micromanage more. I'm sure that gets tiring for both parties involved. Some slaves like to be micromanaged, good for them. I am not being critical of anyone's life but sometimes these issues need to be brought up to initiate some thought-provoking and learning. I encourage all posts no matter what, even if I disagree with them. And Jules, I always love your posts even if you can't read my mind.

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/20/2005 8:59:47 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		It is what i meant, and i did not meen it was wrong to micromanage, just that it might be interesting to discuss this and problems that might arise. Well said Timothy.

(in reply to sweetpleaser)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/20/2005 11:11:06 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I don't presume to speak for others and their strengths and weaknesses, but ,for myself, I have discovered the hard way that one can't presume that just because two people use the same words they mean the same things. I find I stress communication because I have found it to be such a stumbling block for so many people. One man's control is another man's micromanagement and third's permissiveness.
As to the potential problems with the perception of micromanagement, I think there are many, depending upon the individuals. My first sub felt that too much management deprived her of the opportunity to serve as she wished. I've met submissives who felt they were being treated as incapable if they were managed too closely.
I know some dominants who find it exhausting to manage a submissive too closely. Some, like myself, simply prefer a submissive who only needs a given set of parameters and preferences with which to guide her service. I find I don't have the patience to walk a submissive through her duties on a daily basis.
Knowing what works best for myself and my girl is the key to maintaining a dynamic that keeps us both happy. When I was new, I didn't have the experience to understand that definitions might vary, that ideas might not be compatible with reality or that one might have a less than perfect understanding of one's own needs. As I've grown and learned, I've discovered that one may never have a perfect understanding of much of anything and one must always be prepared to accept one's mistakes and start anew. Experience may not make one perfect, but hopefully it serves to give one perspective.
Be well,
Timothy

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/22/2005 6:19:48 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessJules
Once again, a great post from Dark Angel. I always *ALWAYS* look forward to reading your posts. You never let me down.


I enjoy them once I force myself to read them.

I find odd centering and certain text formats difficult to read, and my brain sadly tends to skip right over them.

If it's hard to read for me I guess I simply tend not to read it - even if it means I might miss something.

I like what she says as well - but I do have to literally force myself to read it word by word.

I suspect for me, it's that age-old quandry that the style and/or delivery can indeed overshadow and drown out the message.

But I'd agree with Jules, nicely said.

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to GoddessJules)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 8:11:17 AM   
realophelia


Posts: 168
Status: offline
quote:

if the Dom loves Western shows then that is what they will always watch. Do not the sub also have a right to be happy, and even if the Dom do deside, should no the sub`s needs be taking into consideration to?


My Master makes most of the decisions about our activities. He does allow me some input, however. If he wants to go to lunch for example, he'll often give me a choice of a couple of different types of food and then choose the restaurant accordingly. I like having this kind of limited input because I don't want to be burdened with too much decision making.

When it comes to other things, like films or evenings out, he will usually decide on the activity then ask me if I want to watch/go or not. It's more information gathering than anything though. If I don't want to go he will usually talk to me about the problem (shyness at a party) for example and help me to feel better about the activity.

Most of the time, I am happy doing whatever he wants to do. He is a very interesting person and has exposed me to a lot of things I wouldn't have otherwise experienced. Also I like to be with him so much, it's hard to have a bad time.

So to answer the question (should the sub's needs be taken into consideration), I think that's up to the Dom though it is nice if he gives the sub some input at times.

~Ophelia

Edited to add: I think I'm actually talking about wants more than I am needs (in the above). The subs needs should always be taken into consideration.

< Message edited by realophelia -- 1/23/2005 4:36:11 PM >

_____________________________

"And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burning coal Pouring off of every page Like it was written in my soul..."

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 8:13:40 AM   
realophelia


Posts: 168
Status: offline
quote:

If he wants to go to lunch for example, he'll often give me a choice of a couple of different types of food and then choose the restaurant accordingly.


Just wanted to add...I do tell him if I want to do something. If I'm hungry, for example, I'll usually say so. He makes the final decision, but he takes my needs/wants into consideration.

Ophelia

_____________________________

"And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burning coal Pouring off of every page Like it was written in my soul..."

(in reply to realophelia)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 9:54:09 AM   
ShadowKnight


Posts: 40
Joined: 12/7/2004
From: Missoula, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: malepleases4ever

re: Human Rights - this is where the train goes off the track for me. Human rights are not something that can be negotiated away. Fun is fun between consenting adults, but it can be taken too far. Just like it is not possible to actually become someones legal slave in the US, it is not possible to relinquish your essential rights. Having no sense of the gravity contained in words like 'some don't believe in human rights' is almost funny here. I only hope the irony is not lost if the evangelicals ship us all off to gitmo.



Actually this is where the train goes off the track. Off the track in that you seem to have a false notion that you are the one who is able to decide what a M/s relationship is all about and what it will or will not entail. Since I also highly doubt you are the Grand Poohbaah of BDSM, I highly doubt you are in a position to define what anyones relationship is or should be. An inflated sense of self-importance in what you believe as to how things should be is not relative to everyone else. It is only relative to you and possibly whoever your play partner is. In which case I highly doubt you are in a M/s relationship.

As a Master, My slave has the rights I give her. Her choice is to stay and obey or leave. My way or the highway as they say. Do I usually give her some time to spend on her own hobbies and interests? Yes. Is it a requirement that I do so? No. Is she able to "demand" this as her "right" ? Yes, as she is headed out the door and down the road. I do not get into all the micromanagement. I assign tasks and once those are completed she has the chance to spend some time reading or whatever...long as her tasks are completed. Her rights are what I give her or allow her to have. Her time is managed as I see fit. Is this way of doing things right for everyone or the only way of doing things? Heck No! Neither do I seek to tell someone else how they should live their life. It is kinda like culture...it is relative only to those intimately involved in it. What works for one does not necessarily work for the other.

Just My two tarn bits,

ShadowKnight



_____________________________

What is weightier than gold yet depresses no scale?

The collar is put on from without, but what it encircles comes from within. Slavery, true slavery, comes from within.

(in reply to malepleases4ever)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 10:33:00 AM   
DameDarkness


Posts: 341
Joined: 10/1/2004
Status: offline 		Usually when new Dominants set up these types of Regiments its because they really have no clue about the lifestyle. They have not learned all the aspect and think a sub is just a slave. WHICH i will make known is totally untrue. A sub is completely different than a slave. But if a Dominant would just go and read and learn about the lifestyle they are choosing and saying they are Dominant they would be completely different with their regiments they require for their submissives or possible submissives. Also with new Dominants they are also thinking that with this lifestyle its always their way or the highway which is not true as well. If they did take the time to learn that a submissive has rights they would no a submissive can say NO anytime. Unlike a slave.

Dame Darkness

_____________________________

Into the night sky I fly through distant lands and darkened streets... Up into the clouds to play and dance with the moon.....To the hearts of all and I say to you be true to they own heart.

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 10:48:13 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Usually when new Dominants set up these types of Regiments its because they really have no clue about the lifestyle. They have not learned all the aspect and think a sub is just a slave. WHICH i will make known is totally untrue. A sub is completely different than a slave. But if a Dominant would just go and read and learn about the lifestyle they are choosing and saying they are Dominant they would be completely different with their regiments they require for their submissives or possible submissives. Also with new Dominants they are also thinking that with this lifestyle its always their way or the highway which is not true as well. If they did take the time to learn that a submissive has rights they would no a submissive can say NO anytime. Unlike a slave.

Dame Darkness


Amen!

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to DameDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 11:05:04 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		To me, what other people do within this lifestyle is their own business, but being pretty new to this, you can't help notice that most of these folks with these hard line views all have names with Count, or Knight, or Lord or whatever.

Then they email you and tell you how real they are. Nothing against anyone, mind you ... but it's still pretty funny if you ask me.

EMPRESS caitlyn

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 11:08:01 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Your Majesty,

Thank you for pointing this out- I am old and cynical, and just tickled to death that a new seeker like yourself has pointed out that these emperors indeed have no clothes.

Welcome to the boards- I hope you hang around.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 5:43:55 PM   
Arbitor


Posts: 4
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.collarme.com/forum/m_62517/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#62517

Please refer to comments by Moderator One concerning policies and this post. Your account has been placed on moderation for flamming.


< Message edited by ModeratorFour -- 1/23/2005 5:59:31 PM >

(in reply to match2u)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/23/2005 7:00:28 PM   
Goodmix


Posts: 86
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		Nella,
Every dominate has a different style, different preferences ~ same goes for sub’s. It is a matter of finding two that match.
If you try to change his “style” and are successful, than who was in control?
In the vanilla world, I can get men to do just about anything, and I gotta tell you, I hate them for it. I don’t want to be in control. The challenge of finding someone who is strong enough (within my “style”) to take control.
If I start telling them “I don’t feel like doing that” , and it’s accepted, then I topped them from the bottom.
It’s a lot like parenting… here are the rules (again every Dom has a different style and this is where talking and communication are important), if you agree to those rules, it should go without saying that they going to be in forced, if not what’s the point? And who is really in control?

As far as your feeling of being insulted, you should ask yourself if you could handle negative responses before you post. I can tell you that I have read other’s who have been put in their place much more drastically. If you feel that badly about the things that have been said, My suggestion would be not to post again, but if you do and you want to open a discussion, make it clear;
“I want to open up a discussion about Dominates who put “up a regimen for their submissives that are werry good for the Dom but that alow the sub nerly no time to
herself or to do what she or he likes.”

Disclaimer... In the writing of this post, no feelings were
intentionally meant to be hurt, no animals were harmed, and all
facts (correct or misunderstood) are based on the knowledge received.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/24/2005 1:55:39 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Do negotiations no longer take place prior to the start of a relationship?

I mean, nella...you have some valid points, wouldn't it be wise for you to bring these particular wants or needs up to your dominant if you felt that they weren't being addressed during negotiations? Or would you simply enter into a slave contract with a dominant without looking at some of the details?

I understand that not everyone has a contract. I also understand that everyone's relationship is different. But I don't understand why some people get involved in a relationship that may have had some clearly defined structure, and then complain about the structure afterwards.

I know submissives have needs, but it's a submissives responsibility to make the dominant aware of those needs prior to getting involved. If I am negotiating with a prospective slave about her terms of service, I will do my best to ensure that she knows what to expect from me and what I require from her. If she accepts having 15 minutes to shower and having only one hour for private time, well then I am going to hold her to that committment.

It seems that some submissives (And some dominants as well, I should add..) feel that their submission (Or dominance) exempts them from all responsibility. Its just not so.

Bottom line...know what it is you are getting into and communicate with your partner.

~Thorns



_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/25/2005 6:26:22 PM   
UnkownMaster


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think that it depends on what type or relationship the dom and sub wants. I personally want more than someone to serve me. I want them to disire me and once I have that to kindle it further and further until they gicve themselves to me. I want a relationship to be continously growing to bigger and better things.
It may be that dominats have tendance to take the submissive for granted.I think that being the person with the power in the relationship tends to cause some to take the submissive for granted.I hope that the submissives that I've known dont't feel that I have done so to them.I try to explore each submissives motives for the submissive behavior as an individual.I also remind myself that true submissive are deserving of my respect just because they can behave in away that I personally could not.


< Message edited by UnkownMaster -- 1/25/2005 6:28:27 PM >

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/26/2005 6:36:36 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nella
Do not the sub also have a right to be happy, and even if the Dom do deside, should no the sub`s needs be taking into consideration to?


Nice topic nella.
i will give just my opinion.
Subs have needs, so do slaves.
Each relationship is different and lived only by the 2 involved.
Recently, Master told me to take out a peice of paper and write "after focus" on it. i did. my instrutions were: my needs, concerns, issues, feelings, questions other than the topic of His discussion were to be wirtten down and then i could respectfully communicate my list when He was done. i love this new technique! Some times i ask to bring my list to Him before He begins, and He is wonderfully willing.
The dynamic of any relationship is theirs and how needs (that of Dom or sub) are communicated is set forth early, revised (such as ours) and evolving on the journey they take.

i admit though, my NEED to whine, complain, bitch, vent is held to His desire... "stop and tell Me without your drama shy."
Sometimes He can read through my needs and strip them from me as nonfunctional, inappropriate and replace them with clarity and focus.

Marcus Aurelius says "Remember this- that very little is needed to make a life happy."

Sometimes i have to stop and ask, do i want, need, or desire?
What is profitable? When i cannot decifer, He usually sits ready to tell me or tells me before He sits in silence.

Just us, not for everyone.

Master Damian's shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/26/2005 6:57:42 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser
I think nella is trying to educate new Doms regarding the needs of subs because of another thread that has been running. The new Dom on that thread was pretty stoic in his rules. Nella, stick to what your priorities are in a relationship and don't feel like you are any less of a submissive for it, you are just you. New Doms who are trying to prove themselves will either find a slave to comply or will learn real quick to tone things down a bit.


Nice insight ann.
Being a person means you evolve. If one refuses to evolve, admit mistakes, change and better themselves for themsleves and not another, then, in my opinion, they will not a good person make.

shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to sweetpleaser)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The submissive`s need. - 1/26/2005 7:05:52 AM   
slavedesires


Posts: 669
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nella
What i can expect is not to be insulted by your so called barbed responses, i am an adult to but i try to be polite. Do you think that being an adult and showing you can do what you pleese must involve insulting pepole around you?


And not a doormat either nella.....
i knew there was a reason i liked you
besides your "poor" use of English language, not your mother tongue.
my best freind lives in Sweden and when we talk on the phone, usually for 3 hours at a time, which Master graciously allows, we have such fun giggling about the way we say things. What is even funnier..... hyjacking a hyjacked forum ... is hearing the German MD i worked with and my Swedish friend try to get the clicks of the Ndeble language under control with the already deep gutteral intonation of their mother tongue.
what a hoot! but then i couldn't get it at all!!

you rock nella!!
shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 80
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