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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:16:34 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		We aren't posting here because this question is asked every other week. No one agrees on a definition. Everyone has one that suits them. Look at the archives if you want answers.

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:23:59 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

But i think it is more apparent that the issue still comes down to "is twice a slave because she blindly obeys and has a certain 'mindset', and others are not slaves if they do not follow the way you all do things?"  i think this is the major contention here.


I don't believe there was a point where I, or anyone here for that matter, said anything even close to this. I was merely voicing my opinion... but if you want to carve it in stone that's up to you... not me.

quote:

So i guess if someone wants to come on here and say "i am a slave to my Master", i don't really feel the need to find out how she serves to determine if that makes me a slave as well, or if i do it the way she does.  Again, that is something that will be determined by my own partner.  


That's a good thing, anyone trying to do that would lose their minds trying to keep up with the variations of dynamics that occur in an M/s relationship. Opinions were asked for, opinions were given. I don't fully remember everything said in this thread but I'm pretty sure no one stated anything as absolute fact. Why are you suggesting that me or mine believe that it's our way only? Why not ask the same question of the people that come here and say "a submissive submits daily and a slave submits once"? Or the ones that say there is no difference at all? I don't see any of them being accused of preaching "the one true way". I was asked specific questions concerning why I feel the difference is accountability and I gave my response... actually had a wonderful discussion with a friend here concerning that issue. Never once did I say that someone that doesn't feel that way, or act a certain way couldn't possibly be a slave. I didn't even imply it. So, please, feel free to quote me where that supposedly happened.
 
Jewel

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:25:13 PM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

i really think if we can come to some agreement that a slave isn't a slave because she does xyz, or because she has some different mindset than others who also serve, we would stop having all this competition and disagreement on the subject.


Lol, well you and i could get together and start a few more fat threads or low income no income who should work threads. But i spent all day wiring the lights and parts of it cooking and i have my new fuzzy snowflake and heart jammies on (TY master and Mistress mine), i just got out of the shower, i have a mug of Earl grey tea (with sugar , i must be 1/2 peasant NG) and in a little while i shall climb into bed with my meows and watch the tube, Dr.Who is on tonight; tomorrow is a work day for Master so tonight i sleep in my own room.
 
Maybe in the morning we can come up with something new.
 
 

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:27:10 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		You compared the French resistance in WW2 to the Viet Cong following that war -
 
I was saying that this is an unfair comparrison - because the Viet Cong/their predescessors  were fighting their war for two centuries+ prior to the American intervention... whereas the French resitance did not even have a rudimentary infrastructure and form of command, storage caches, means of reliable and rapid communication, ability to travel unnoticed, supply chain, tactically trained people, etc.
 
There were an estimated 2 million "insurgents" in the south when the US screwed the pooch in the 1954 elections... and, then did the same with the 1961 redux and formal partitioning...
 
The french had patriots (to be sure) but their ranks were never above an estimated </=5k 
 
They never had any effect on the german's infrastructure or even anything significant on troop movements/communications at D-Day+.
 
They gathered information for the allies and distrupted some communications - but, they were pretty ineffective i comparrisson.
 
~J
PS: Stanley Karnow's views are very biased and narrow in scope and cover only the war with America and (even) very little about the French colonial era prior to Dien Bien Phu - I was going for a history of hte country - not a history of America in the country.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:28:48 PM   
LordODiscipline


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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sab

American troops are 'taught' to think for themselves?! Please explain why so much "friendly" fire. :-S


Just another means of saying "HOWDY" without having to be bothered with disembarking from the tank!
~J

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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:35:41 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		(fast reply)
 
I finally figured out what the military has to do with BDSM...
 
The government and the commanding officers are a bunch of sadist fucks and the soldiers are unwitting masochists that technically are "owned" by the government and are "trained" as slaves that follow orders blindly!!!
 
Ta Dahhhhh... we pulled the thread back from the breeches!!!
 
Jewel
 
lmao

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:53:17 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I suggest that it is Stupid for a Master to make things harder for themself instead of easier.  Your reading of what I say is laced with self-defensiveness... which is strange in it's own way.

No, actually is wasn't laced with anything...actually the particular example we are using would have been a fuckup on my part had I not taken the information provided at face value...lol. Nothing would have been hurt, but it would have cost more for no reason. And I certainly agree that the result is the objective, poor management or a poor decision on anyone's part, making the call, is not going to be productive. I think where I was going with this, and since you apparently also have experience supervising people, is although you should always relay how, you don't always want to have to constantly be questioned why? I have no issue with someone offering opinion or their take on something they are directed to do, but once the decision is made, it stands and the consequences if it comes out poorly, is the responsibility of the one calling the shots.


It is one thing asking Why... and another asking for clarification to ensure the what is wanted will be achieved.

My girls don't ask why I want things... but they do ask How, What , Where and When... All to understand the result I want.  If they don't understand the result wanted.. and take action and fail... they will be held accountable.  for their responsibility is to ensure they do my will and that they understand what my will is.  They can't read minds.. they must ask question on occassions.

However... after all that is done... The decision is mine and mine alone... and that decision is my responsibility. 

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 5:59:23 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel


I don't believe there was a point where I, or anyone here for that matter, said anything even close to this. I was merely voicing my opinion... but if you want to carve it in stone that's up to you... not me.

That's a good thing, anyone trying to do that would lose their minds trying to keep up with the variations of dynamics that occur in an M/s relationship. Opinions were asked for, opinions were given. I don't fully remember everything said in this thread but I'm pretty sure no one stated anything as absolute fact. Why are you suggesting that me or mine believe that it's our way only? Why not ask the same question of the people that come here and say "a submissive submits daily and a slave submits once"? Or the ones that say there is no difference at all? I don't see any of them being accused of preaching "the one true way". I was asked specific questions concerning why I feel the difference is accountability and I gave my response... actually had a wonderful discussion with a friend here concerning that issue. Never once did I say that someone that doesn't feel that way, or act a certain way couldn't possibly be a slave. I didn't even imply it. So, please, feel free to quote me where that supposedly happened.
 
Jewel


Without digging through all the old posts right at this moment, i did note in post #24 that you felt the difference between sub and slave was that of accountability...and you clearly explained what that meant.  i believe this is where you also mentioned the 'slave mindset' which you also again referred to in post #32, as a difference between the two.

Perhaps twice does have a different mindset when it comes to serving....and it is noted that she will do as told with no input even if she knows a better way because that is what is expected in your relationship.  And that is fine....but is this the determining factor of a 'slave mindset' and a slave who does not share that mindset is a sub?  Or maybe i'm not getting how you are distinguishing the two mindsets. 
 
And the same with the accountability.  Why do you think that if a sub is able to remark on something she has been told to do, even if it would make things easier, that this proves less accountability, thus not making her a slave?  Or am i misinterpreting that too?
 
i have just seen that there are so many on here who identify as being slaves, their partners as being Masters, yet because they don't have the same requirements (including accountability level and/or mindset) that they are considered subs (and i am not just saying by you).  And i guess i just don't understand that line of reasoning.
 
DG

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/15/2006 6:49:20 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Lol, well you and i could get together and start a few more fat threads or low income no income who should work threads. But i spent all day wiring the lights and parts of it cooking and i have my new fuzzy snowflake and heart jammies on (TY master and Mistress mine), i just got out of the shower, i have a mug of Earl grey tea (with sugar , i must be 1/2 peasant NG) and in a little while i shall climb into bed with my meows and watch the tube, Dr.Who is on tonight; tomorrow is a work day for Master so tonight i sleep in my own room.
 
Maybe in the morning we can come up with something new.
 
 


That's what i should be doing right about now twice.....can't seem to get off this net though....lol.  Good night!  :)
 
DG

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 2:20:51 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I understand Jewels comments on a *slave mindset*...... and why twice would turn right when asked.......it indicates twice's mindset and devotion as a slave though......not necessarily what it means to be a slave.

I use the term slave for myself because I am owned and answerable in all areas of my life. There are no parts that he cannot touch, no negotiated restrictions. It was all or nothing.

I don't identify with the term *submissive* because I do not*feel* that. I submit because I gave someone the authority to impose their will over mine not because I have a need or desire to serve.

On a day to day level I do not have a *slave-mindset* as described by Jewel.......I sometimes do not want to do what's asked of me but there are consequences of two types for not.......one is that I could be forced to, and I will be penalised and then still have to.

I became a slave when I gave him the right to direct and control my life in the way he chooses to and accepted his *right* to do so fully.

Many submissives feel and live exactly the same way, though, I'm sure.

agirl

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 3:44:04 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

And the same with the accountability.  Why do you think that if a sub is able to remark on something she has been told to do, even if it would make things easier, that this proves less accountability, thus not making her a slave?  Or am i misinterpreting that too? 

 
Yes, you are misinterpreting that. I said nothing about "less" accountability... I said the accountability rests on the submissives shoulders. As agirl said...
 
quote:

I use the term slave for myself because I am owned and answerable in all areas of my life. There are no parts that he cannot touch, no negotiated restrictions. It was all or nothing. 


As she says... it's all or nothing.. she is answerable to her owner in every aspect of her life, she does as she is told. And judging by reading some of her posts I would also say that she has a mind of her own, is not afraid to state her opinion and does so in an intelligent manner... so she is no doormat. But her mindset is that she does as her owner says understanding that in doing so he is responsible for the decisions he makes and the directives he gives her. The "accountability" is his. (I could be wrong agirl... I'm just guessing)
 
quote:

i have just seen that there are so many on here who identify as being slaves, their partners as being Masters, yet because they don't have the same requirements (including accountability level and/or mindset) that they are considered subs (and i am not just saying by you).  And i guess i just don't understand that line of reasoning. 


I also didn't mention any "requirements". To be a slave to me... yes, I have requirements, as I'm sure most dominants have. To be a slave in general? I wouldn't even try to make a list of requirements.

As clearly as I can possibly put it... if you consider yourself a slave then there is a good chance that you either are, or at some point will be, a slave... you have the mindset. If you consider yourself a submissive and say you will not or do not identify as a slave then there is an equally good chance that you are not or will not be a slave because you do not have that mindset. I have a dominant personality, that is MY mindset... whether I meet the criteria of others doesn't matter. In the 'nilla world I still have a dominant personality.
 
quote:

Perhaps twice does have a different mindset when it comes to serving....and it is noted that she will do as told with no input even if she knows a better way because that is what is expected in your relationship.  And that is fine....but is this the determining factor of a 'slave mindset' and a slave who does not share that mindset is a sub?  Or maybe i'm not getting how you are distinguishing the two mindsets. 

 
As far as accountability? We (in our home) listen to twicehappy's input on how something is best done then we (my husband and I) make the final decision on how it will be done. If it works out... great, job well done. If it flops miserably... our fault.. bad directives. So, no, it is not "noted" that she will do as she is told with no input. If she is told specifically to do one thing then she will do that one thing with the understanding that had we wanted her to do more then that we would tell her.
 
Note that she said...
 
quote:

We went shopping for a different kind of electrical wire so i can install some three way switches, Scooter knew i knew what was needed so at that point he deferred to my opinion


But had he not.. and had gone on and bought the wrong wire for the job, she would have used it... and no, it would not have been unsafe it just wouldn't have worked the way we wanted it to. But she did state her opinion and exactly what it was that she needed to accomplish the task.
 
I hope this clears up a few things.
 
Jewel

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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 5:21:46 AM   
spankmepink11


Posts: 1310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

  As for the hole in the floor example, i believe i would have asked if  He would like me to fix the other problems as well. I don't think that makes either of us right or wrong, just different.
Would He have been angered  by me asking that? 


 Angered? No. But if when asked, if I replied no, then I would anticipate that being a sufficient answer. I might have had a reason, not that I can think of one right now...lol.



That would also be a sufficient answer  for me. Later in Your post You say
"I would not expect to be asked...why? "    I would not ask "why"  and hope i didn't imply that i would,  as i said...i would have simply asked initially if You would like the other items taken care of also.
Love and Respect...

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 8:24:52 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

And the same with the accountability.  Why do you think that if a sub is able to remark on something she has been told to do, even if it would make things easier, that this proves less accountability, thus not making her a slave?  Or am i misinterpreting that too? 

 
Yes, you are misinterpreting that. I said nothing about "less" accountability... I said the accountability rests on the submissives shoulders. As agirl said...
 
quote:

I use the term slave for myself because I am owned and answerable in all areas of my life. There are no parts that he cannot touch, no negotiated restrictions. It was all or nothing. 


As she says... it's all or nothing.. she is answerable to her owner in every aspect of her life, she does as she is told. And judging by reading some of her posts I would also say that she has a mind of her own, is not afraid to state her opinion and does so in an intelligent manner... so she is no doormat. But her mindset is that she does as her owner says understanding that in doing so he is responsible for the decisions he makes and the directives he gives her. The "accountability" is his. (I could be wrong agirl... I'm just guessing)
 
quote:

i have just seen that there are so many on here who identify as being slaves, their partners as being Masters, yet because they don't have the same requirements (including accountability level and/or mindset) that they are considered subs (and i am not just saying by you).  And i guess i just don't understand that line of reasoning. 


I also didn't mention any "requirements". To be a slave to me... yes, I have requirements, as I'm sure most dominants have. To be a slave in general? I wouldn't even try to make a list of requirements.


Jewel


Yes Jewel, you do have that right. That sums the picture up. It doesn't mean that I do not speak out, speak up and generally drive him mad at times......but he took me as his, AS me.

There are times when I *just do* too because I either know it's important, or I'd like him to be proud, or it simply safer to. I also get cross and frustrated and say I hate him, at least once a week ( he'd probably say once a day).

There were requirements to belong to him.......he told me that there were no half measures, he either had all of me or none of me. It was to be done *properly*. I agreed because I don't do things in half measures either and I knew that I could do it with him.

My slave-mindset is really a conditioning over time......my personality isn't submissive, in fact I mostly like to please myself and unlike a lot of other people, I often DO think of myself first until I get a cuff round the ear.

As for accountability, I pretty much know what's expected of me.....and I sometimes choose to do my own thing.....usually I suffer because things don't work out as well as they would have if I'd done things his way and sometimes he just lets me find that out.  If I do what HE says and things don't work out, then he shoulders that.

As with your relationship, I have my input about anything I wish to, it's always listened to, then any final decision is his. The only time he will not listen is if he's heard it all before and I have nothing new to add. Then it's a case of *Just DO it*.

I don't think I have any characteristics that make me a slave apart from the fact that I was willing to be subject to someone elses will and that I was able to accept that as the way I'd live.

He's made me a better me for me, not a better me for him and despite my irreverance about him and the relationship......I respect him in a way that I haven't anyone else and am pathetically devoted to him.

agirl

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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 9:40:36 AM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		Words help us understand each other but they always require more explanation than just the title. I always say I'm submissive because I don't like the word slave, personally and I submit slowly as trust builds and am not even sure I would submit in all areas but whenever I see slave descriptions I can always see how I am and what I like in there.

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 10:34:17 AM   
gypsylee


Posts: 293
Joined: 9/18/2006
From: Melbournia, Australia
Status: offline 		gah! every time i look at the board and see this thread, i think it's a joke with a one line answer...

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 6:50:28 PM   
MaisonValmont


Posts: 6
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have to laugh,....as it is apparent by the advice, thus given in this thread that THIS the reason for so much confusion on this topic,.........
 
The difference is quite clear. submissives maintain a certain level or power of choice and negotiation within their agreed up relationship,........slaves do NOT have any negotiation,.........but that TOO,......is something that THEY  (the slave) agreed upon as well, because that is the way they (the slave) wants it and derives the most enjoyment out of their existance and relationship. To HAVE a submissive, is to enter into a relationship with someone who IS "submissive" as a "psychological state" (that's WHAT they are as a PERSON),......but they are not willing to, or can't give up complete control / surrender. To have a slave is to control and own "totally",.......to give a slave THAT experience or way of life,....is a tremedous responsibility of a Master or Mistress. With total control, also comes total care taking and care giving. In practical 24/7 terms on a day to day basis,.....the weight of responsibility is identical to that of having a child.
 
Is the slave "better" than the submissive?,.......no,.......they are just different, but the submissive cannot DO what the slave can DO, and THAT,.....is to give ALL,............That is not "bad",.......just different. Some cannot dunk a basket ball,....some can (I am one who cannot).
 
submissive is something that you ARE,.........."slave"  is a trained discipline, not unlike the martial arts. It is a discipline that the submissive who CHOOSES "slave" takes upon themselves FOR themselves,.....sometimes in an effort to "tap" even more profoundly into their natural submissive nature.
 
 
Cordially, Le Marquis de Valmont, slave OWNER,......(not a grey haired old single fart).  :)

[Mod Note:  font reduced]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 10/16/2006 9:32:59 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 7:48:32 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Yes, you are misinterpreting that. I said nothing about "less" accountability... I said the accountability rests on the submissives shoulders. As agirl said...
 
As she says... it's all or nothing.. she is answerable to her owner in every aspect of her life, she does as she is told. And judging by reading some of her posts I would also say that she has a mind of her own, is not afraid to state her opinion and does so in an intelligent manner... so she is no doormat. But her mindset is that she does as her owner says understanding that in doing so he is responsible for the decisions he makes and the directives he gives her. The "accountability" is his. (I could be wrong agirl... I'm just guessing.
 
i kinda wish you had not made reference to agirl's post.....just because she happened to post after me and she agrees (to some degree) with what you said.  i was really trying not to quote others because i am really just trying to get some clarification on the terms you use....and not just in comparison to someone who agrees with you.  i am still not seeing the logic in the difference between a slave mindset and a submissive mindset.   This keeps eluding me.  But to go on....

 I also didn't mention any "requirements". To be a slave to me... yes, I have requirements, as I'm sure most dominants have. To be a slave in general? I wouldn't even try to make a list of requirements.

As clearly as I can possibly put it... if you consider yourself a slave then there is a good chance that you either are, or at some point will be, a slave... you have the mindset. If you consider yourself a submissive and say you will not or do not identify as a slave then there is an equally good chance that you are not or will not be a slave because you do not have that mindset. I have a dominant personality, that is MY mindset... whether I meet the criteria of others doesn't matter. In the 'nilla world I still have a dominant personality.
 
There have been several instances where others have come on and said they felt they were slaves in their relationships, but they did not (for their own reasons) like to be called a slave.  Do you consider that they have a 'slave mindset' although they prefer to call themselves submissives?  Or do they have a 'submissive mindset'?  To distinguish between the two mindsets, i would imagine you first have to distiguish the difference between the 2 labels, no?  This is the whole point of these dang threads.
 
As far as accountability? We (in our home) listen to twicehappy's input on how something is best done then we (my husband and I) make the final decision on how it will be done. If it works out... great, job well done. If it flops miserably... our fault.. bad directives. So, no, it is not "noted" that she will do as she is told with no input. If she is told specifically to do one thing then she will do that one thing with the understanding that had we wanted her to do more then that we would tell her.
 
So accountability....let's see how this works.  i'll use the example of going to the gym just because it is simplistic enough. 
 
Master says to slave....let's go to the gym.  At the 4 corners, Master starts to go right but slave knows the gym is left.  Because the slave feels that 1) she should not question the Master as he knows what's best and what he wants to do and 2) he will take complete responsibility for going the wrong way.....she makes no effort to mention the gym is the other way.  Am i with you so far?
 
Same scenario with a Dom and sub.  When Dom starts to go right instead of left toward the gym, sub says....excuse me Sir (or whatever)....but the gym is to the left.  Dom may still decide to go right and the sub does not question further.  Dom takes full responsibility for going the wrong way.
 
Where is the accountability different there?  Because someone brings a valid point up to her (his) partner, does that somehow make them less slave-like?  Any sub i know is going to ultimately do it her partner's way anyway....that is part of her submission.  And if it ends up being a screw up, then the dom partner takes that responsibility.
 
Being allowed to give input on the best way to do something is fine.  But watching your dom pick up a 3 wire (or whatever the heck it was) instead of a 4 wire when you know the 4 wire is what's needed to do the job, and not speaking up about that....well, in my mind, that does not make one more of a slave than any other sub who would speak up....or does it to you?  i guess that is what i am asking.
 
i still hold true that i really think that many subs consider themselves slaves in the dynamic of their relationship....but just because they do not wish to call themselves that in the public arena (or perhaps even at home...i don't know)....makes them, nonetheless, a slave.
 
DG
 


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I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 7:55:15 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaisonValmont

 but the submissive cannot DO what the slave can DO, and THAT,.....is to give ALL


This is exactly what rankles submissives who call themselves subs rather than slaves...  there Is an impliccation that a sub is selfishly withholding something, and the exalted slaves have gone beyond that...  comments like these are why slaves are faced with rolling eyeballs, even if WE don't make these claims for ourselves. 

There is nothing more Un-slavelike than to imply we have a higher value to our Master than a sub has to her Dominant.   These comments that imply a higher value often come from Masters moreso than slaves..  It is telling that often Masters have much pride in their slaves, and do delight in games of "Mine is more better-er than Yours"   but it sure is devisive and doesn't help the overall lot of slaves within the community at all. 

Not to mention,  this idea that only a slave gives all, and a slave always gives all, isn't borne out by the facts.   Plenty of submissives give much more than slaves,  it depends on what the expectations are of the Dominant or Master involved.  There are slaves that Do own property of thier own, have their own money, and have absolute autonomy within their careers, or over their children, etc. 

There are also submissives who have No money of their own, only work at the behest of their Dominants, and make no decisions without direct input from the Dom.    

No wonder comments like "a slave gives ALL while a sub does not" are met with so much challenge and rancor. 

< Message edited by Mavis -- 10/16/2006 8:06:03 PM >

_____________________________

~ Mavis

none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

(in reply to MaisonValmont)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 8:27:43 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


 
The difference is quite clear. submissives maintain a certain level or power of choice and negotiation within their agreed up relationship,

 
Unless they don't.
 
quote:

........slaves do NOT have any negotiation,
 
Unless they do.
 
quote:

.........but that TOO,......is something that THEY  (the slave) agreed upon as well, because that is the way they (the slave) wants it

 
Unless it's not.
 
quote:

and derives the most enjoyment out of their existance and relationship.

 
Subjective and hardly accurate.

quote:

To HAVE a submissive, is to enter into a relationship with someone who IS "submissive" as a "psychological state" (that's WHAT they are as a PERSON),......but they are not willing to, or can't give up complete control / surrender. 
 
Or maybe they just dislike the historical context of the world 'slave' so will not embrace it as a personal label.
 
quote:

To have a slave is to control and own "totally",.......to give a slave THAT experience or way of life,....is a tremedous responsibility of a Master or Mistress. With total control, also comes total care taking and care giving. In practical 24/7 terms on a day to day basis,.....the weight of responsibility is identical to that of having a child.
 
As a mother and a slave and as this pertains to those two facets of my being, I disagree with this completely. It is no where NEAR the same thing. A parent helps mold their child so they grow up to be productive people of good character and solid self-esteem (if it's a parent worth their salt). By the time Master's get a slave, that slave is already a fully formed adult human who may be tweaked for service, but doesn't need to be treated as a child nor spoken to as a child nor thought of as a child.  Children and adults have different needs, different ideals, different levels of understanding and need to be treated accordingly. You may treat your slaves as children, you may believe the responsiblity for them is the same as the responsibility you have to a child, but that is not universal in any way.

 
quote:

Is the slave "better" than the submissive?,.......no,.......
 
That's the first statement you've made which I can accept as a truth.
 
quote:

they are just different, but the submissive cannot DO what the slave can DO, and THAT,.....is to give ALL,............
 
Poppycock. A submissive is just as capable of giving 'all' as a slave .. maybe more.
 
quote:

submissive is something that you ARE,
 
I agree with this and you don't have to be involved with BDSM to be a submissive person.
 
quote:

.........."slave"  is a trained discipline, not unlike the martial arts.


I think it 'can' be like that, but it's not a requirement. For me, slavery was something which I had to recognize internally before I was able to embrace it. It was not 'trained' into me. It was my own acceptance and willingness to let go of the lifelines I held on to which took me from bottom to slave over a time period of about 20 years, not an external process. If the process was external, anyone could be 'trained' as a slave. There are far too many submissives who will never, ever take on that mantle for it to be an ultimate truth.
 
quote:

It is a discipline that the submissive who CHOOSES "slave" takes upon themselves FOR themselves,.....sometimes in an effort to "tap" even more profoundly into their natural submissive nature.
 
And this directly contradicts what you just stated about being trained, but does more closely support my own belief and philosophy on slavery as it pertains to my personal situation.

There is a reason that threads such as this exist.. because its really just not possible to lump all the groups into a category, slap a definition on it and say..

A = this and that and we call it submissive
B = here and there and we call it slave
C = to and fro and we call it switch

etc., and so on and so forth

And, if we are going to do that, we'll have to use 'my' definitions because I'm just not willing to use anyone else's.

Now, if everyone would agree to mine, then these threads can, indeed, be put to bed and we can get on with the business of weight, height, poly, pro's, true, fake and the like. ::chuckles::

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to MaisonValmont)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/16/2006 8:53:56 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		As for your question about the trip to the gym, i understand it was directed at Jewel, but i'd like to give a shot at it too, if i may.  Simply because that type of thing comes up with me and Master a LOT. 

There must be something once a week that He says He wants done this way or that, yet i KNOW He's got bum info or is misunderstanding something. Since W/we prioritise things,  yes, i am to obey, but do i obey for this moment, or do i serve the overall needs of the Master?     Do i always trust Him, or do i sometimes know i know best?  That comes down to was HE bright enough to pick someone who sometimes knows stuff He doesn't know?  yup.  But that doesn't always mean He's open to me doing a lot of "yes Master, BUt.."  So when it comes up that i have to choose to force an issue, i do it and accept the possible consequences.  Some say that isn't a slave- mindset, but He says that is exactly what He wants in a slave, so it must be the slave mindset for some of us, yes?

There was a time when He thought somebody had given out His private mail account because another person used His yahoo IM / chat name and tossed that in a @yahoo.com mail and He got mail from them.  He wigged out,  "I know for a fact I never gave this person my e-mail address, this other person HAD to have given it out without asking me!."  Welp.  Gawd.   It's pretty obvious if you know someones Yahoo IM handle, it's a good bet they have an associated e-mail account with it. 

"Erm.. Master,  naw.  X just guessed it.  It matches your IM name.  That's how yahoo works."
"Will you STOP saying No, but, yada-yada! I know I never gave X my mail address."
"Yes Sir, but You didn't have to, using Your IM handle works for mail too."
"You're just defending Y.  I know Y is the only other person that had this mail address."
"Sir.. actually, everyone You've ever IMed with can guess Your mail addy...Please, before You behead Y, check the yahoo homepage and see how it works."
"This telling me what I know and what to do is going to stop right this minute. I won't have it.  Not another word on it."
"Alright Sir.  but You're going to look like an ass if You charge Y with giving X the mail because i can bet you that's NOt what happened.  i would like to save You that embarrassment, but Your choice."

Was that slave-like or sub-like?    i dunno.  It was surely mavis-like.  i added more words after being told to shut up about it.  OMg.  but, it was more important to me that He move forward with accurate info than that He feel warm and fuzzy over my aquiencence to wrong thinking.  He was wrong, and if i let Him go ape on Y doing something not done, i would have been serving MY need to be comfortable.  i took the punishment of having Him pissy at me for a day until He verified my facts were correct.  He's not an idiot, but He definately felt He was absolutely correct in light of the information He had.  Lacking insight on yahoo screen name services, He had reason to believe what He believed.

As W/we trust more, both directions, He is learning to maybe slow down if i have info to add, and not act on His knowledge right away, so i have more trust in HIM, i can shut up when told, knowing He can come back and revisit the topic,  without having acted on it ahead of my input, because of His trust in ME..  But in the beginning, like that mail thing, i KNEW if i didn't get those words out, His very next phone call would be to ream Y. 

The house slave in Roman times could easily say "Master, there are rats in the silo eating the grain, your slaves are going hungry and cannot work the fields because they're getting weak,  the neighbor is stealing your calves and the tile worker did a mosaic of your wife doing Pharoh.  And the boat building business is bad because your boats sink."  Can bet me that slave wasn't referred to as a submissive.  Nor did he operate under the assumption that "maybe Master likes it that way, it's not for me to warn Him".

_____________________________

~ Mavis

none of this applies to me, i'm only playing with lables this week.

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 200
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