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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 3:45:46 PM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
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I wasn't going to comment on this thread...but...sinced it's still going i'll have at it. In my opinion...and my opinion alone...Whether one calls themselves slave...or submissive, the common denominators of choice and consent remain. I identify as submissive, as such, i will negotiate with a Partner on limits etc, at the onset of a relationship. After that point, i am theirs to to use at their discretion, with the exception of the pre-set limits. Now..Jewel....much as i love you

i must disagree with the concept of a slave engaging in illegal activity and holding the Master/Mistress accountable. If either You or Scooter demanded that twice rob a liquor store, would she really do so? And if she did, how could the two of You possibly be held accountable? It reminds me of my children saying "all my friends are doing it" and of course the age old parental reply being, "if all your friends were jumping off a cliff would you also?" I'm sorry, i just cannot accept the concept that labeling oneself "slave" negates common sense and personal, moral, responsiblity/accountability.
Nothing but love....

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

Post #: 101

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 3:48:18 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I personally think that whether one is a Dominant or Master/Mistress or slave or submissive is defined by what one does, not by what one thinks they are.

Boy, can I agree that people cannot be defined by what they THINK they are. And who can't relate to the observations readily available at any gathering of lifestylers?

But do you really think that people are defined by what they do? I have worked on my car from time to time, but I'm far from being a mechanic. I cut the lawn, but I'm no gardener. I replaced two light fixtures in the kitchen recently, but I'm no electrician.

And what if someone is "doing" nothing? What about a Dominant or submissive/slave that is not currently in a power exchange relationship? Are they no longer Dominant or submissive? Must people be defined by external sources, or by virtue of other people?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. What say you?

John

I am not sure I understand your comments.

In terms of all the examples you give, I would say the only thing that really matters about who or what you are would come from your own perception of yourself. Not really my place to say what you are. Somebody asks a question or makes a comment on the internet which may be full of idiosyncrasies and holes, I dont really consider myself responsible for making assertions that what they post is right or wrong.

When I work on my car, I am wearing my mechanic mask.

When I am teaching self defense I am wearing my self defense instructor mask.

When I am a longshoreman I am wearing my orange shiny grease covered stuff and standing around doing nothing except wearing my longshoreman mask.

I dont feel any of these masks specifically defines who I am. They are simply representative of what I do.

As I stated, I view what people do as the defining factor in how I categorize them. Which is not to say that I wont call Lord God Legend In Own Mind by whatever grandiose nonsense title (LordOKeeblerElves, for example) S/He comes up with.

I dont define myself based on what other people think of me. I also dont really put any emotional stock in how people interact with me. I find it amusing when they try to cut and paste me into their little definition bubble. But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 102

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 5:26:07 PM

Iskander

Posts: 264
Joined: 9/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Isn't this whole thing like asking "What's the difference between a rose and a flower?"

Now you're confusing things, which of the 2 is the rose? *chuckles*
And can the other be an orchid?

Iskander...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 103

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 7:31:06 PM

diamonddreamlove

Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline

You have not met my Dom if you think that. He uses the words interchangable, however i consider my self a sub. I will not live with Him and smiling hopefully not have to do His dirty laundry but I do make phone calls for Him and have a feeling will be doing much more in the future. As a sub my devotion to Him is not one little bit less than that of the slave. It just simply means that for me and for Him our realtionship works the way it is and there is and will not be the need to defend it from others. In short not defending just saying my peace. May sub/slaves get along and agree to have our own thoughts and feelings about what we do to and for our Dom/Masters. I am what He chooses for me to be nothing more nothing less.

_____________________________

"Many attempts to communicate are nullified by saying too much." Robert Greenleaf

(in reply to michaelGA2)

Post #: 104

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 8:06:33 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

I wasn't going to comment on this thread...but...sinced it's still going i'll have at it. In my opinion...and my opinion alone...Whether one calls themselves slave...or submissive, the common denominators of choice and consent remain. I identify as submissive, as such, i will negotiate with a Partner on limits etc, at the onset of a relationship. After that point, i am theirs to to use at their discretion, with the exception of the pre-set limits.

This is how it has worked for me as well. But i have a question for you. After you have agreed to the initial limits, have you found others that have come up during the course of the relationship? If so, how did you handle that? If not, how would you handle that?

Since i certainly have not experienced all there is to D/s, i am almost most certain i will at some point realize other limits. In the past, this was not a problem with those i was with, and i have included in my profile that i may become aware of more limits and i am looking for a partner who would understand this.

For an example....one dom i was seeing wanted to try some puppy play. Well, i wasn't crazy about crawling across the floor on the end of a leash (really not my thing), and i really balked at eating out of a bowl on the floor....but when he told me to drink out of the toilet (lol), that was my limit. Fortunately for me that was not a big deal for him so it wasn't a problem.

i do try to lay out all my hard limits on the table right at the beginning (i even put them in my ad)....but these are only my known ones....and since i have a lot to yet experience, i believe i may even find more. Just wondering if you have come across this with Yours....and what you did.

i do realize this is a bit off topic for this thread but since it seems to be dying a slow death anyway (lol), i doubt anyone will mind (if they even notice....lol)

DG

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 105

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 8:31:24 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diamonddreamlove

You have not met my Dom if you think that. He uses the words interchangable, however i consider my self a sub. I will not live with Him and smiling hopefully not have to do His dirty laundry but I do make phone calls for Him and have a feeling will be doing much more in the future. As a sub my devotion to Him is not one little bit less than that of the slave. It just simply means that for me and for Him our realtionship works the way it is and there is and will not be the need to defend it from others. In short not defending just saying my peace. May sub/slaves get along and agree to have our own thoughts and feelings about what we do to and for our Dom/Masters. I am what He chooses for me to be nothing more nothing less.

i just "stole" this quote from an old thread under Ask a Master. i would have asked first but the thread was pretty much dead. It was posted by a dom there. i found this a great response to this type of thread and sounds kind of like what you are saying:

quote:

It has nothing to do with being a sub or a slave.....a slave is a sub who is considered a slave by herself and her dominant...a sub is a slave who is considered a sub by herself and her dominant, there is no other
defining criteria....again NO OTHER DEFINING CRITERIA!

DG

_____________________________

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)

Post #: 106

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 9:20:05 PM

AcademyForSlaves

Posts: 712
Joined: 2/24/2006
Status: offline

Hi.

I've noticed most subs use the term sub or submissive if they only play and sometimes if they play both sides too (switch), but many slaves that use the term slave are usually more into living the lifestyle for real and not only play acting.

_____________________________

Academy Mistresses
http://www.academyforslaves.com/home.html

(in reply to Asako)

Post #: 107

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 9:45:42 PM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Hi.

I've noticed most subs use the term sub or submissive if they only play and sometimes if they play both sides too (switch), but many slaves that use the term slave are usually more into living the lifestyle for real and not only play acting.

No disrespect intended but i think you are going to find this is not true at all. i am a submissive and i have never played....have only been in one on one, serious relationships which i had hoped would be long term (just didn't happen that way though ). And many subs here are in LT relationships as well, some are even married, but do not identify as slaves. So no, sub does not equal mere play. There are a lot of good posts here which might help clear up some of that confusion.

DG

(in reply to AcademyForSlaves)

Post #: 108

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 10:39:14 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Academy for Slaves online slave training? Credit Card required? Out of curiosity, what's the fee these days for online slave training?

And perchance, what is the pedigree of this illustrious and august Academy? Who conducts the training, and what qualifies them to do so?

I am sincerely interested in learning quite a bit more. Please do respond.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to AcademyForSlaves)

Post #: 109

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/13/2006 10:46:53 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

Hi.

I've noticed most subs use the term sub or submissive if they only play and sometimes if they play both sides too (switch), but many slaves that use the term slave are usually more into living the lifestyle for real and not only play acting.

I am a submissive and I love to play, I also love to serve, and love to obey, and I am really into pleasing Daddy. I am not interested in submission for sexual gratification only. I have never switched BTW nor do I have the desire to... in fact I am not interested in even topping someone.

I do not know how many submissives you know, how many of them have had long term relationships for example, but it does not sound like many. I think you should know a lot of submissives before you purport to be involved with an academy to train us... but that is just my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to AcademyForSlaves)

Post #: 110

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 12:15:49 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Isn't this whole thing like asking "What's the difference between a rose and a flower?"

That would be implying that a slave/submissive is a subset of the group submissive/slave.

A rose is a type of flower.

A slave is not, in my mind, a type of submissive. Or vice versa.

I will probably get heat for it, but I imagine it is like Germany and France prior to World War 1. A Maginot Line has been built between the two warring camps and they, in a very Taoist sense, have developed an oppositional relationship with each other. What is lost in the entire argument is the reality that what ends up happening is the two oppositional elements are, in fact, complementary, contain the seeds which make up the essence of their complement, and define themselves as being Not that other thing over there.

To a Taoist, the truth is not found engaging in the conflict. It is found in finding the binding principle that unites the two complementary forces.

I am not sure what the binding principle is, but my initial crack at it would involve levels of commitment to the relationship as well as depth one can sink into how they view their situation. Having said that, I refuse to get involved in the squabble about the difference between submissives and slaves.

Think you are a submissive, go for it. Think you are a slave, kudos. Think you are a Keebler Elf, good one on you (for all you New Zealanders out there)

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 111

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 12:40:51 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, Sinergy, maybe there are some Taoist slaves, but most slaves aren't Taoists. I enjoy the Tao-te ching as much as the next guy, but I don't think Taoism (or the Maginot Line, for that matter) has anything to do with this.

And yes, I believe slaves are a subset of submissives. That's exactly what I meant by the rose-and-flower analogy. I've never met a slave who wasn't submissive--unless we're talking about slaves who were coerced, and that's a whole different ball o' wax. I assume that's not what anyone had in mind.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/14/2006 12:43:45 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 112

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 12:56:43 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

And yes, I believe slaves are a subset of submissives. That's exactly what I meant by the rose-and-flower analogy. I've never met a slave who wasn't submissive--unless we're talking about slaves who were coerced, and that's a whole different ball o' wax. I assume that's not what anyone had in mind.

Thank you for clarifying what you personally believe.

And we all know what happens when a person assumes. They make an ASS out of U or ME.

And while the condescending comments about Taoism and finding a Taoist submissive were cute, I guess, in a juvenile sort of way, I personally dont feel it particularly mature to denigrate other people's belief systems or ways they define their consciousness. I am glad it works for you. I suspect it is like people who enjoy having gay friends because they will not be competing for the same pool of candidates.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 113

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 12:59:26 AM

calipet

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

the difference between a sub and a slave is very simple....one can be submisssive without a partner, that is simply what one is....but a slave by definition must have a master and be owned

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 114

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 1:22:52 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: calipet

the difference between a sub and a slave is very simple....one can be submisssive without a partner, that is simply what one is....but a slave by definition must have a master and be owned

So all those people who identify as slaves and are Masterless are "shit out of luck" in your dictionary?

Would seem a bit callous of me to be so dismissive of other people's reality, but that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to calipet)

Post #: 115

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 1:31:13 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

Everyone seems to define these terms, and a lot of others, slightly differently. The arguments about terminology rumble on forever.

I think what matters more is that those who are involved in the relationship agree on expectations and limits, and are happy with their role, however it's defined.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 116

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 1:33:32 AM

Tnmaster1

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

Submissive is an adjective. Slave is a noun. To be a sub person is describing characteristics. A slave is owned.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 117

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 3:36:12 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

either You or Scooter demanded that twice rob a liquor store, would she really do so? And if she did, how could the two of You possibly be held accountable?

If we did "demand" it, and if, out of her devotion to us, she did do it... well, legally, we couldn't be held responsible, but in my opinion we would be morally responsible because we took advantage of her absolute devotion to us, of her desire to do as she is told by us. Is that gonna happen? Hell no. But are you really going to tell me that there has never been such a irresponsible, uncaring or immoral owner that none has ever dropped a pack of cigarettes in the slaves purse or pocket because they couldn't afford to pay for them? Or that there has never been an individual that identifies as a slave and is so naive' that they take the word of their owner as carved in stone? And if you combine the two and the owner does indeed take advantage of the love, devotion and sincere desire to do as they are told of the slave that if that slave got arrested for shoplifting... are you really going to tell me that the owner had absolutely no accountability for it?

As an owner of a submissive or slave... isn't it part of our responsibility to guide? To teach? I'm not saying that the slave shouldn't be a thinking, reasoning individual, what I am saying is that under some circumstances it is highly possible for an owner to coerce a slave into doing things they normally wouldn't do under different circumstances. In that instance are you saying that the owner, under no uncertain terms, is not to be held accountable? Whether it be legally or morally?

At this point I'm probably beating that dead horse again but will share a very personal example. I have always been very strong willed but years ago, in my first marriage, my husband spent months on end telling me what a fat, discusting pig I was... I weighed in a 130 pounds. Over time I started believing him... it's called brainwashing. Less then a year later I weighed 82 pounds. I battled anorexia for 3 years, it damn near killed me. Was I responsible in totality? Or was he?

That's why me and mine will never stop telling others to choose well and consider everything about a possible owner before taking that plunge. Know them as people first.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 118

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 4:22:00 AM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: calipet

the difference between a sub and a slave is very simple....one can be submisssive without a partner, that is simply what one is....but a slave by definition must have a master and be owned

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tnmaster1

Submissive is an adjective. Slave is a noun. To be a sub person is describing characteristics. A slave is owned.

i truly hope that those who have decided to post their very first forum post at the end of this almost dead issue will first take the time to read the entire thread first. Could save a lot of repetition.....and could be quite informative as well.

DG

(in reply to Tnmaster1)

Post #: 119

RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/14/2006 4:24:34 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

A slave is owned.

A submissive can also be owned.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Tnmaster1)

Post #: 120

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