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RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 8:51:31 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper



Real science did evolve from those pseudosciences because when real scientists came around, they realized that real empirical evidence was superior in every way to merely guessing out of some psychologically appealing aesthetic.


Not always. HALF the time.."science" does more HARM to humanity and the planet.

quote:



In real science every real theory from gravity to heliocentricity is studied and through careful examination, the evidence gathered will either reassure the previous theory or make the old theories obsolete and make way for new ones.


Not always.Somtimes it is carefully MANUFACTURED to suit a particular agenda...other ideas are SUPRESSED AND DENIED.. I.E VELIKOVSKY is ONE example.

This is FAITH that they will tell the truth..nothing more.

quote:

Magical based theories like alchemy where one item could be transmuted into another is absolute aesthetic bullshit, unless you honestly want to believe that the human body is running on phelgm, blood and yellow and black bile - btw, are black bile transplants still covered by your health insurance?
You are talking absolute nonsense, showing absolutely no historical precedence.

quote:



yes, a lot of current elemental names come from those days when "science" and poetry were interchangeable, but these are serious times now and people who actually want to contribute to the modern world and real civilization know when to push the aesthetically pleasing magical world aside to make way for real science and real critical thinking .


"SCIENCE" can't explain everything....and..to ME...any organization who says 90% of our DNA is "junk"..can't be trusted or is working foir an AGENDA,...hence CAN'T be trusted. Ill take my chances with ASTROLOGY to learn about MY SELF...something "Science" or "Psychology" only has a TINY foot in the pool of TRUE knowlage about.

quote:

The earth is not a mystical life-binding force


Umm...yeah it is..otherwise you would be 100% DEAD. Non Existant.

quote:

The sun does not revolve around the earth.


No one ever said it did.

quote:

Your spirit does not exist beyond death because you think it does.


HOW the hell do YOU know?LOL...have you ever been dead? THAT is your BELIEF....as is your BELIEF in the "Scientific process".

quote:

Embracing crystals while sitting alone in your room at night will not make you find someone special. Placing your bed in a specific corner of the room will not help you find fame and fortune (Feng Shui). This kind of magical thinking is wholly obsolete. In every socially acceptable sense.


Sticks and stones....NOTHING to do with ASTROLOGY.

quote:

Deal with it, turn off your cosmic night light and grow up.



Better yet.....stick your head up Carl Sagans ivy league bought and paid for ass and sniff...you'll like it

< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/24/2006 8:53:44 PM >

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 8:52:36 PM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline 		If we want to get SUPER technical here, and apparently we do, then its folly to believe that the earth revolves around the sun, isn't it? I mean, have you seen evidence of this with your own eyes? I'm not talking photos here, photos can be faked. Have you actually gone into space far enough to see the earth revolving around the sun...?

Same with everything else. You can pick and choose what you believe in, I don't care if you believe in God or Goddess or a damn booger that runs the universe. Just don't go around saying YOUR assumptions are true when technically, you have no proof either.



_____________________________

A sucessful life is not measured by what we do
But by the realization
Of who we are.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:21:12 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

The reason for this thread is, how much do you feel you mirror your sun sign and ascendent sign (the two most important). Do you know what these signs are, have you had your chart done? If you have a partner do they resemble their sign or chart strongly, how about your unmentionables... do you have a chart for them, do they share the characteristics of their chart?


  LOL Julia....

As beginner.....the only thing I can tell you is that the ''Aries'' sign fits me straight down the line - The key traits being impulsive, aggressive, very physical, quick witted, selfish and courageous.

I've learned more about astrology from Blktallfullfig, and the postings here in the last year and half than ever before - Yes I believe in it


 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:25:46 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorelei115
Same with everything else. You can pick and choose what you believe in, I don't care if you believe in God or Goddess or a damn booger that runs the universe. Just don't go around saying YOUR assumptions are true when technically, you have no proof either.



No scientific mind has to disprove anything no one has shown evidence for - I've already shown that in my previous posts. No amount of the supernatural can be assumed as a valid default for a lack of scientific understanding. Currently the evidence points to the theory that earth does indeed revolve around the sun. No amount of raised hands or wishful thinking can change that.

If you have real evidence of such supernatural occurances that can be reproduced in controlled evironments, then I, and every other respectable scientist willbe happy to listen.

and to sissify: Science hurts no one. Application of science can be quite deadly, but that strictly depends on the ethics of the individual using it. Preferably, I'd rather it not be someone whose thoughts are clouded with fairies and astrological nonsense.

You obviously have no historical knowledge of alchemy or astrology. It appears your faith probably comes from chinese restaurant placemats.

What possible unified political agenda is there in advocating real science and atheism, in which there is no code for ethical or unethical behavior outside what each individual brings in from outisde sources? Go join the conspiracy nuts who believe in the origins, let alone the objectification, of "evil" if you honestly think scientists are out to get you.

What the earth offers is scientifically, geologically and genetically based. It has never been mystical.




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(in reply to Lorelei115)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:33:11 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper


and to sissify: Science hurts no one.


Are you on CRACK?

HELLOOOOOOOOOOO?

Look at the Goddamed planet!!

Nuclear bombs, genetically modified food, depleted uranium weapons, bar codes, people as commodities,
planetary deforestation,pollution, pavement everywhere....shit man LOOK the hell around you..ALL caused by "science" in the WRONG hands.

HOW many people has it killed and will CONTINUE to kill?

Can you say the same for astrology or the Tarot?

Nope.

Not EVERYTHING can be "Proved in a controlled environment"...will NEVER happen.


Leave us "Nuts" OUT of your planet/humanity killing agenda.....thanks.



< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/24/2006 9:52:20 PM >

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:43:21 PM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper


No scientific mind has to disprove anything no one has shown evidence for - I've already shown that in my previous posts. No amount of the supernatural can be assumed as a valid default for a lack of scientific understanding. Currently the evidence points to the theory that earth does indeed revolve around the sun. No amount of raised hands or wishful thinking can change that.





The key word in your post there is "theory". The point is, no one has PROVED this to me, so by your definition, I can assume it to not be true. Yes, currently the evidence points that way, but a hundred years ago, the evidence pointed differently. I personallly am not so much of a solipsist as to believe that nothing in the world is true aside from that which is personally proved to me, and apparently neither are you, since you take what "scientists" tell you as fact.

The point I'm trying to make is this.

You say that you don't believe in God/Goddess/whatever/the supernatural because you have been offered no proof. Correct?

To continue down this line, "proof" would have to constitute anything that YOU have PERSONALLY seen with your own two eyes. Anything else is technically hearsay.

Therefore, because science has theories that have not been proven to you personally (ie the earth rotating around the sun) science is something that, like astrology, has to be taken on faith.

I'm not saying your wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right. Just think about it.


Edit: Oh yes, I also wanted to add: I'm not arguing that astrology is an absolute science or anything. Like I said before, its a tool to help you examine your own subconcious... people were asking about the underlying belief system to it, so I shared what I have been told.
I don't believe in a lot of supernatural stuff, but I don't automatically discredit it either. I strive to keep an open mind about ALL things.

< Message edited by Lorelei115 -- 10/24/2006 10:26:07 PM >

_____________________________

A sucessful life is not measured by what we do
But by the realization
Of who we are.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:43:40 PM   
sailorthor


Posts: 53
Status: offline 		This is a fascinating discussion, no matter how "deep it is getting" in here. ;)

I have no use for a belief in deity.  Of any form.  I don't need to be threatened with afterlife consequences to convince me that living a good life here is a wise move.  I likewise don't need the carrot dangled in front of my nose to the same purpose.  While I find fantasy novels and theology texts and ancient myths all equally pleasing, I don't need, on a psychological level, antiquated explanations of the unexplained.  I find the likelihood that the Druids were "right" to be equal to the Hindus being "right" and the Buddhists, and Muslims, and every other religion.  They all say roughly the same thing.  They all say this:  "Observe the social interactions around you.  Learn from these observations, or suffer the consequences of not being able to live in accordance with social norms."

For me, spirituality is supremely more immediate.  If I conduct my life poorly, I will find quite quickly that I am already in something resembling hell - that is, a life lived poorly.  If I conduct myself how I perceive I should conduct myself, I find that life is good, pleasant (even with all its challenges), and fulfilling.  It is about consistency with self expectations.

I also posess sufficient reason to accept that while there are things not yet understood, it does not mean those things are not understandable.

I also find great satisfaction in Godels incompleteness theorem.  To me, that is one of the most fundamentally awesome (in the proper sense of the word) conjectures ever devised.  Between that and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, I think it is wonderful that someday, someone (or thing), might, somehow, have known all there is to know.  At that point, why not have a big bang?  Start the learning all over again.  Learning is fun.

Edited because 15 posts showed up in the time I was typing this:

Do not dismiss so easily whether the sun revolves around the earth, or the earth around the sun.  Even in high school physics it is made quite clear that they revolve around each other.  Relativity plays a role.

And, edit 2, I forgot something:

How different is string theory from the "ether" of yesteryear?  And, if string theory and quantum mechanics are correct, and gravitrons are real, then a planet's position in space can most assuredly change the conditions under which one is born.  So is astrology complete crap, or an ancient's way of explaining something for which it took a very long time to find a scientific explanation?

Enjoy Life,
SailorThor

< Message edited by sailorthor -- 10/24/2006 9:58:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:51:03 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		At the risk of pissing off just about everyone, I'll point out that there are really only two possibilities, not three.  It's the Law of the Excluded Middle, you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

There are three possibilities:

1. God exists
2. God may exist
3. God does not exist

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:52:12 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper


and to sissify: Science hurts no one.


Are you on CRACK?

HELLOOOOOOOOOOO?

Look at the Goddamed planet!!

Nuclear bombs, genetically modified food, depleted uranium weapons, bar codes, people as commodities,
pollution, pavement everywhere....shit man LOOK the hell around you..ALL caused by "science" in the WRONG hands.

HOW many people has it killed and will CONTINUE to kill?

Can you say the same for astrology or the Tarot?

Nope.

Not EVERYTHING can be "Proved in a controlled environment"...will NEVER happen.


Leave us "Nuts" OUT of your planet/humanity killing agenda.....thanks.


Are you afraid of the facts?

Raw knowledge hurts no one. It is still ONLY THE APPLICATION OF KNOWLEDGE that hurts anyone.

Real science goes beyond mere agenda because real science uses mathmatical proofs and real methodologies so that ANYONE the original experiment can use similar controlled procedures to obtain real empirical evidence to validate the same theories - regardless of their personal beliefs.

Maybe mankind wont exist long enough to classify or catalogue everything in its proper scientific order. NONE OF THAT means any amount of mystical hogwash is valid by either social or scientific default. NONE.

Mystical forces (astrology, tarot, God, Zeus, Odin, etc) have no evidence to show their existence or their boundaries beyond what any individual's imagination can achieve. Their interpretations are purely aesthetic. All based on piss poor conjecture at the very most. As such, any application of such farcical beliefs, regardless of how beneficial they might seem, only paves the road for anyone to use the same mystical reasoning to justify the most abusive actions.

Your beliefs are not only nonsensical, they are irresponsible and hazardous to everyone you interact with.

[Mod Note:  flames deleted.  Knock it off.]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 10/24/2006 11:37:25 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 9:54:10 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		I sure as hell ain't killing the planet and humanity.

Your beloved scientists are.

You people are WORSE than fundamentalist Christian ZEALOTS.

Merely a MODERN twist on an ancient system. Nothing more.

End of story.

< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/24/2006 10:11:45 PM >

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:00:53 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

I don't know shit about this crap...I'm DEFINITELY a Leo, and it is total horsehit.

(But I'm definitely a Leo).

(Did I just entirely step in my own shit here?)



Leo would be the astrological sign of which resembles the lion.

If you are a Leo.

And you stepped in horse shit.

The shit you stepped in could not, by definition, be your own.

Q.E.D.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:02:40 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper


Maybe mankind wont exist long enough to classify or catalogue everything in its proper scientific order. NONE OF THAT means any amount of mystical hogwash is valid by either social or scientific default.



Yeah..it probably won't..and it ain't due to people practicing Astrology.

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:05:04 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

End of story.



[sarcasm]

I am not sure that Monkeyboy could have come up with such an erudite and cohesive analysis of hundreds of years of peer reviewed analysis of information studied in a methodological and concise fashion, sissifytoserve.

[/sarcasm]

The fact that you answer an intelligent and articulate dissertation with what is essentially an emotional argument would tend to lump you (in my mind) in the same mindset as those you call Zealots.  People so consumed by their emotional attachments to something that they are incapable of dealing with empirical evidence which might suggest they dont know what they are talking about.

How is that working for you?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:05:59 PM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sailorthor


How different is string theory from the "ether" of yesteryear? And, if string theory and quantum mechanics are correct, and gravitrons are real, then a planet's position in space can most assuredly change the conditions under which one is born. So is astrology complete crap, or an ancient's way of explaining something for which it took a very long time to find a scientific explanation?

Enjoy Life,
SailorThor


Hey thats a good point! A lot of the so-called "magics" of yesteryear (like magnetic force) have been proved true in later times by the scientific method.

_____________________________

A sucessful life is not measured by what we do
But by the realization
Of who we are.

(in reply to sailorthor)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:13:42 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

As beginner.....the only thing I can tell you is that the ''Aries'' sign fits me straight down the line - The key traits being impulsive, aggressive, very physical, quick witted, selfish and courageous.



From what I have seen of your postings, and as a fellow Aries, add fighting for the underdog (people who cannot fight for themselves), and passion for a good cause to that list of traits we both seemingly share...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:17:09 PM   
SlaveAkasha


Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I don't bet my life on it, but I will say that I have done my chart, and it is very interesting. 
 
 
My sun sign is Libra.  My ascendant is also Libra.  I think I fit it very well, even parts of it I would rather not admit to myself, so it's not wishful thinking.
 
I think like anything else, it's worth as much as you are willing to give it.  Do I think it's sort of fun to check out and study?  Yes.  Do I check it before I walk out the door to make sure I won't be hit by a bus?  No.
 
Akasha
 

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
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RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:22:15 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Aries, one of my sister fire signs.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:22:38 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

At the risk of pissing off just about everyone, I'll point out that there are really only two possibilities, not three.  It's the Law of the Excluded Middle, you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

There are three possibilities:

1. God exists
2. God may exist
3. God does not exist



Law of the excluded middle only applies to constants and the booleans assigned, and not the number of variables to which the boolean can be assigned.

A ball radiates energy at a constant level along the electromagnetic field. The ball radiates at which frequency:

Gamma Rays: True or False
Xrays: True or False
Television: True or False
UV: True or False
Violet: True or False
Indigo: True or False
Blue: True or False
Green: True or False
Yellow: True or False
Orange: True or False
Red: True or False
Infra-red: True or False

Given the ball radiates at a constant frequency, only one can be true, while the rest are false. If the ball was not radiating at a constant frequency, then there could be very well be intervals where the ball may be blue, or it may be red. However further scientific experimentation would be required to determine the extent of the fluctuations to determine if it is indeed true that the ball, at any given interval, may be blue. But as long as the color blue remains along the electromagnetic spectrum and the ball's radiation is fluctuating, then there is at least the notion that the ball could be blue.

In my previous arugment, the notion of "God" is by no means a philosophical constant. As such, there must be at least the assumption that "God" - or whatever superstition you wish to use in its place - could at one time have existed and no longer exists or may not yet exist and may one day come into existance or it could come in and out of existence at regular or irregular intervals (what does one take for cosmic levels of irregularity?). In any case, the notion that "god" may exist suggests that under the right circumstances the "god" could become existant. However, the notion that "god may exist under the right circumstance requires evidence of what those circumstance must be and that "god" does indeed exist at that specific interval. There is no evidence for either of these requirements and as such, the statement is currently false.

There simply is no blue here.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:25:34 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		These are all just DEFINITIONS (OPINIONS) of a greater system science cannot pin down or define. It would be impossible to do so.

Its greater than all of us.

No matter how much their egghead brains think they can.

< Message edited by sissifytoserve -- 10/24/2006 10:26:04 PM >

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Astrology - 10/24/2006 10:29:46 PM   
ZenrageTheKeeper


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

I sure as hell ain't killing the planet and humanity.

Your beloved scientists are.

You people are WORSE than fundamentalist Christian ZEALOTS.

Merely a MODERN twist on an ancient system. Nothing more.

End of story.


Then by all means. Abandon the evils of the internet "tubes" and go live with the Amish.


_____________________________

If Men never thought with their penises, all you girls would still have cooties.

(in reply to sissifytoserve)
Profile   Post #: 60
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