quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
What i am asking is do you, personally, feel that a dominant has the right to selfishly demand whatever, whenever, from you, and in your personal relationship, just because one is DOM, lol, without having at least some consideration for the subs feelings or thoughts? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

~fast reply~
i think a certain amout of selfishness is normal and to be expected.. i also know that for me at least if my feelings,needs and desires are ignored or if my attempts at getting those met are called manipulation. i won't be in the relatioship for long

Ah...you bring up an interesting thought.   i have seen this.  The dom just won't give in for what ever the reasons. The sub is left feeling like something is missing, or feels deprived, neglected, or unfulfilled in some way that is not healthy. The dom can't or won't see it, or just doesn't wish to make an effort or an attempt to understand. Or dom is just plain lazy, and hopes time will work itself out.  Or, dom  waits for sub to master themself, then dom takes credit.   Or the dom may just not have it inside, and can't even go there. So many situations where folks are mismatched in areas that may not be able to be worked out.

This often causes the sub to react or behave in ways that are not to the doms liking. Because by this time, the sub is getting strained, stressed, anxious, frustrated or even desperate, to get the dom to see the need. The dom then calls it manipulation, and this seems to make the dom free of having to accept responsiblility and take action, by putting it back on the sub.

Edited because hit send by mistake. *grin

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When it comes to time I'm very selfish and prefer to use it working ( I have very interesting work, to me anyway.) than on a sub which is why I live alone. If you choose to be in a relationship then that person deserves some consideration but all too often they expect too much consideration which comes back to me choosing to live alone.

Interesting though as it makes me wonder how much consideration that you feel is too much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I DO know the difference between TOO much consideration and a reciprocal effort, too.

Even a rather spoiled girl can know when to be thankful.

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

~fast reply~
i think a certain amout of selfishness is normal and to be expected.. i also know that for me at least if my feelings,needs and desires are ignored or if my attempts at getting those met are called manipulation. i won't be in the relatioship for long

Ah...you bring up an interesting thought.   i have seen this.  The dom just won't give in for what ever the reasons. The sub is left feeling like something is missing, or feels deprived, neglected, or unfulfilled in some way that is not healthy. The dom can't or won't see it, or just doesn't wish to make an effort or an attempt to understand. Or dom is just plain lazy, and hopes time will work itself out.  Or, dom  waits for sub to master themself, then dom takes credit.   Or the dom may just not have it inside, and can't even go there. So many situations where folks are mismatched in areas that may not be able to be worked out.

This often causes the sub to react or behave in ways that are not to the doms liking. Because by this time, the sub is getting strained, stressed, anxious, frustrated or even desperate, to get the dom to see the need. The dom then calls it manipulation, and this seems to make the dom free of having to accept responsiblility and take action, by putting it back on the sub.

Edited because hit send by mistake. *grin

..........by that time .......I would know I wasn't WITH a *dom*..... Being dominant MEANS something..... If I'm self-dominating then I do not require a*dom* or at least THAT *dom*. Most of those situations are about manipulation .....not about responsibility and ownership.

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When it comes to time I'm very selfish and prefer to use it working ( I have very interesting work, to me anyway.) than on a sub which is why I live alone. If you choose to be in a relationship then that person deserves some consideration but all too often they expect too much consideration which comes back to me choosing to live alone.

Interesting though as it makes me wonder how much consideration that you feel is too much?

That's a difficult question because it depends on personalities. Two extremes I have encountered, given that my work is the most important to me. One relationship I had my sub was very interested in my work and was keen I should do it and didn't mind being sidelined for my work (but not for another woman of course), another relationship I had my sub expected to be the centre of my universe whenever we were together. The former was actually in my company more often while the latter, after short while I was trying to get rid of her, even though in many ways I was crazy about her, though her demands really did drive me crazy.

quote:

agirl, i understand your thoughts.  However, for those who are new to this, it is often not that clear and may not be for quite some time.  For them it can get rather confusing, as to what they perceive to be dominance, how a dominant is "supposed" to act, and what attitudes they feel to be included in dominant behavior, and how to differentiate between what is, and isn't healthy as they learn. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

agirl, i understand your thoughts.  However, for those who are new to this, it is often not that clear and may not be for quite some time.  For them it can get rather confusing, as to what they perceive to be dominance, how a dominant is "supposed" to act, and what attitudes they feel to be included in dominant behavior, and how to differentiate between what is, and isn't healthy as they learn. 

I do have to agree with this. I was raised in a home where the women were expected to do the 'girl' things, and the men did 'manly' things  Fetching drinks, taking off shoes, doing laundry, cooking, picking things up, etc etc is second nature to me and it's something that I took with me into my first relationship.

If I had not been raised that way and accepted it, I might have a harder time controlling a temper tantrum when he called me from outside to get him a drink...all while he's standing right there in the kitchen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

~fast reply~
i think a certain amout of selfishness is normal and to be expected.. i also know that for me at least if my feelings,needs and desires are ignored or if my attempts at getting those met are called manipulation. i won't be in the relatioship for long

Ah...you bring up an interesting thought.   i have seen this.  The dom just won't give in for what ever the reasons. The sub is left feeling like something is missing, or feels deprived, neglected, or unfulfilled in some way that is not healthy. The dom can't or won't see it, or just doesn't wish to make an effort or an attempt to understand. Or dom is just plain lazy, and hopes time will work itself out.  Or, dom  waits for sub to master themself, then dom takes credit.   Or the dom may just not have it inside, and can't even go there. So many situations where folks are mismatched in areas that may not be able to be worked out.

This often causes the sub to react or behave in ways that are not to the doms liking. Because by this time, the sub is getting strained, stressed, anxious, frustrated or even desperate, to get the dom to see the need. The dom then calls it manipulation, and this seems to make the dom free of having to accept responsiblility and take action, by putting it back on the sub.

Edited because hit send by mistake. *grin

..........by that time .......I would know I wasn't WITH a *dom*..... Being dominant MEANS something..... If I'm self-dominating then I do not require a*dom* or at least THAT *dom*. Most of those situations are about manipulation .....not about responsibility and ownership.

agirl

agirl, i understand your thoughts.  However, for those who are new to this, it is often not that clear and may not be for quite some time.  For them it can get rather confusing, as to what they perceive to be dominance, how a dominant is "supposed" to act, and what attitudes they feel to be included in dominant behavior, and how to differentiate between what is, and isn't healthy as they learn. 
 
interesting thought you shared... i am self dominanting, and have a high measure of self control, yet, i still desire a dominant.  *grin
 
i agree, most of those situations are about manipulation, as that was the thought liljoy presented, and that i responded to.  Some folks that are new, fall prey to manipulatative behaviors, and often in the beginning they are not that easy to recognize. i believe that there are behaviors that may appear to be manipulative, but in actuality some of those behaviors, are the reactions of frustration and/or anxiety build up, when needs are not being met.  So for some, the dom who is not meeting said needs, may appear selfish with his time or affections, etc., and maybe this is the case.  Some may resort to topping from the bottom (a form of manipulation) and may not even be aware of this behavior for they are reacting to not having the needs met or understood.  Some folks are just manipulative by nature...i believe that they are for myself, easier to spot. *grin

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Agreed. It may take quite a while to understand exactly what *dominance* actually means. I find it quite refreshing to think about dominant manipulation rather than *slave or sub* manipulation. I would really hate to be where I was years ago, trying to work out what was beneficial and what was not. Even now, MY idea of being *owned* may stray far from what is the perceived idea of *ownership.

I think people develop their manipulative skills as a way of dealing with life, as it presents. It's not all bad. I manipulate my children. I use parent *one-up-manship* to achieve a desired result, if necessary. I am manipulated by my Master, absolutely......he handles and controls me skillfully.

There is good manipulation, beneficial manipulation.

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
Do you believe that dominance gives one the right to be selfish?

When do those selfish desires begin to be played out at the subs expense? For those that have, or have had these issues and /or experiences within this area, how much is/was too much?

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
Ah...you bring up an interesting thought.   i have seen this.  The dom just won't give in for what ever the reasons. The sub is left feeling like something is missing, or feels deprived, neglected, or unfulfilled in some way that is not healthy. The dom can't or won't see it, or just doesn't wish to make an effort or an attempt to understand. Or dom is just plain lazy, and hopes time will work itself out.  Or, dom  waits for sub to master themself, then dom takes credit.   Or the dom may just not have it inside, and can't even go there. So many situations where folks are mismatched in areas that may not be able to be worked out.

This often causes the sub to react or behave in ways that are not to the doms liking. Because by this time, the sub is getting strained, stressed, anxious, frustrated or even desperate, to get the dom to see the need. The dom then calls it manipulation, and this seems to make the dom free of having to accept responsiblility and take action, by putting it back on the sub.

Edited because hit send by mistake. *grin

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

..........by that time .......I would know I wasn't WITH a *dom*..... Being dominant MEANS something..... If I'm self-dominating then I do not require a*dom* or at least THAT *dom*. Most of those situations are about manipulation .....not about responsibility and ownership.

agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

yes and it took me a very long time to accept that it was him and not me. i kept thinking that if i gave more, was a better submissive he would be the Dom that he claimed to be. would talk about what i was feeling and he would calmly convice me why everything i felt was wrong. i tried haarder to be the "good submissive" that didn't feel neglected because what was on tv was always more important than me.
i'm ashamed to say it took him putting my life at risk by leaving me in an empty parking lot in the middle of the night to realize this was a toxic thing for me. i was done

quote:

ORIGINAL: raiken
Ah...you bring up an interesting thought.   i have seen this.  The dom just won't give in for what ever the reasons. The sub is left feeling like something is missing, or feels deprived, neglected, or unfulfilled in some way that is not healthy. The dom can't or won't see it, or just doesn't wish to make an effort or an attempt to understand. Or dom is just plain lazy, and hopes time will work itself out.  Or, dom  waits for sub to master themself, then dom takes credit.   Or the dom may just not have it inside, and can't even go there. So many situations where folks are mismatched in areas that may not be able to be worked out.

This often causes the sub to react or behave in ways that are not to the doms liking. Because by this time, the sub is getting strained, stressed, anxious, frustrated or even desperate, to get the dom to see the need. The dom then calls it manipulation, and this seems to make the dom free of having to accept responsiblility and take action, by putting it back on the sub.

Edited because hit send by mistake. *grin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissBabydoll

But what I give back is intensely focused attention on My sub and on his path to deeper surrender, in which My intelligence, My intuition, My imagination, My feelings, and some of the time My physical strength are engaged 100%. The relationship is not one of equals in power, but of equality in commitment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Two finer points hinge upon the stations of "submissive" or "slave" when answering the base nature of your question. Even so, I've often said that while a Master's natural place above his slave does not require him to observe her with consideration to traditional manners or thought,

This stuck out to me, "traditional"...as i see that many need time to understand what is or should be the best way to rid themselves of stereo typical conditioning as to what constitutes appropriate and/or healthy behavior within their M/s dynamic.  Learning to abandon and discard the often injected and ingrained "traditional" mindset is sometimes difficult even for those who are more experienced in this way of life.  Childhood indoctrination is often hard to recognize in the minutia of auto response and reactions.  It calls for deep introspection on the part of all involved to refine themselves to meet the demands of a new way of living outside of the sub-consciously ingrained, expected norm.

this is not to say he should be at his core devoid of refinement, humanity and logical consideration of cause and effect over what is in the end a delicate instrument of flesh and blood.

Exactly.

As with any possession—animate or inanimate—you must give it good care, or it will surely fail you. Even a selflessly devoted acolyte needs broth, a warm place to rest and a gentle graze across his cheek from time to time. If I were to embrace indolence and act only for my immediate and blind gratification, the palace I've built around me would be strangled by vines and fall into ruin.