RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (Full Version)

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Morrigel -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 8:19:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

You know, I am a woman and have been in a long term (sexually) monogamous loving relationship and yet I don’t want to get pregnant.  There are women who make decisions on their body and whether they want to have children that have nothing to do with the persons fidelity.


Indeed.  You have been using yourself as the example of how all women should feel and behave for the entirety of the exchange.  The fact that other women, including the ones being discussed, do not live or feel as you do seems to have zero impact on your desire to blame them for having personal vulnerabilities which you do not share.

It's a bit like hearing someone with very dark skin standing in the blazing sun saying that a person who gets a sunburn is stupid.

quote:


Somehow with this paragraph I can’t help but think that you just haven’t been paying attention. 


I'm paying attention.  I just don't agree with your view that women are solely responsible for all of human reproduction and all the potential consequences of sex.  In fact, I feel this is a sexist notion which descends from the mystery cults of the Middle East.  It has no basis in biology, psychology, or any valid system of personal ethics of which I am aware.

I also disagree with your view that a woman who may choose, consciously or semi-consciously, to be fertilized by a man with whom she feels she has formed a pair bond, would necessarily make the same decision if she knew that he had no emotional investment in her, her welfare, or the welfare of her potential offspring.  Ooo, crazy thought I know!  Maybe women aren't as likely to get knocked by guys they know aren't going to stick around!  But hey,  I guess I just don't have as much blaming-the-victim contempt for the human race as you do.  Silly me.

--M




gardenbluebird -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 8:37:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Contraception 101: there are ways to prevent pregnancy that are not invasive (that he didn’t even have to know about unless they wanted to tell him – again if they wanted to take responsibility for their body and their ability to have children.


While I don't know the specifics behind what happened to others I do know this -
Contraception 102: Every form of birth control has a failure rate

Here is what I do know for sure.  My former's bad behavior was confirmed by four different people.  Two of whom have known him r/t for a number of years, one who was a recent former sub, and one who helped a sub that he harmed two years ago.  I saw actual documentation and I caught him in an actual lie (a very bad one).  All of this became uncovered rather quickly.  When the problems first began to unfold I stepped back, put on my analyst hat, and gathered evidence and testimony until I was satisfied that I understood the truth.

The truth is he lies.  He says one thing and does another.  What his actual feelings are (if he has any) I have no idea, but his behavior was at the very least unethical.  Whatever label fits and how much responsibility each sub/victim/choose your label holds for her own fate is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder.

Please keep in mind that just a short time ago I thought that I was in a happy monogamous relationship.  I had just received a collar after what I thought was a sensible 10 months.  It was meaninful to me, even if it wasn't to him.  Perhaps I should have known better, but I didn't.  When I found out the truth I ended the relationship immediately. The pain I am experiencing is real.  Don't belittle it.  Throwing rocks or shrugging your shoulders at someone who is already hurting seems rather counter-productive, even if your intent is good.

I for one have learned my lesson.  I am taking a break (at least 6 months) from any type of intimate relationships.  I have also asked a person whom I have known for years, both personally and professionally, to serve as my protector.  We will not be involved, but he will watch out for my best interests and he will teach me how to better defend myself against those who might cause me harm.




Wildfleurs -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:00:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel


Indeed.  You have been using yourself as the example of how all women should feel and behave for the entirety of the exchange.  The fact that other women, including the ones being discussed, do not live or feel as you do seems to have zero impact on your desire to blame them for having personal vulnerabilities which you do not share.


See this is why I don't think you are actually reading what I'm saying.  What happens is you make blanket statements such as:

Women are not nearly as likely to get pregnant by men when they don't believe that he is invested in the relationship.  They are much, much more likely to use protection, to insist on condoms, to hold back emotionally, etc. when they know they are not in an exclusive relationship.

Then I use myself to counter this claim since I am a woman and thus logically falling into your blanket statement about women.  I have never stated that the way I act is the way that other women should act.

quote:


It's a bit like hearing someone with very dark skin standing in the blazing sun saying that a person who gets a sunburn is stupid.


Bad analogy.  Someone being shocked at getting pregnant when they have unprotected sex is like someone who smokes getting upset when they get lung cancer.  Or someone who runs in front of traffic getting upset when they get hit by a car.  Or someone who hugs bears and tigers getting upset when they get mauled ("The tiger didn't go crazy, the tiger went tiger" as a comedian once said).

quote:



I'm paying attention.  I just don't agree with your view that women are solely responsible for all of human reproduction and all the potential consequences of sex.


Again, just not paying attention.  In my last post which you are responding to I say, " Unless there is swift and complete condemnation of the Ops ex (without any suggestion of responsibility on the part of ALL OF THE ADULTS), apparently one becomes a sexist for suggesting that women are responsible for making sure they don’t get pregnant. " I added the caps, italics, and bold to clearly show you that I am putting responsibility for procreation on everyone that procreates - this means the man and the woman.

quote:


I also disagree with your view that a woman who may choose, consciously or semi-consciously, to be fertilized by a man with whom she feels she has formed a pair bond, would necessarily make the same decision if she knew that he had no emotional investment in her, her welfare, or the welfare of her potential offspring.  Ooo, crazy thought I know!  Maybe women aren't as likely to get knocked by guys they know aren't going to stick around!  But hey,  I guess I just don't have as much blaming-the-victim contempt for the human race as you do.  Silly me.


Again, thats not what I said (going back to the reading thing).  See if you read my post, which you responded to you would have noticed I said:

Basically what I’m saying is what I said earlier, either the women wanted to have a child with him and decided not to take birth control (or use norplant or an IUD), or the women did not want to have a child, took preventative measures and they had an accident.  Fidelity is something that they obviously found out about after the fact and would probably cause regret.  But he didn’t force them to have children, this was a function of their choice about something happening within their body.

And as an FYI, when you decide to have a baby with someone who doesn't care about the baby you aren't the victim, the baby is the victim in this whole circumstance because they did not ask to be brought into a situation like that.  Two consenting adults made that choice (which probably one of them now regrets).

C~




Wildfleurs -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:03:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gardenbluebird

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Contraception 101: there are ways to prevent pregnancy that are not invasive (that he didn’t even have to know about unless they wanted to tell him – again if they wanted to take responsibility for their body and their ability to have children.


While I don't know the specifics behind what happened to others I do know this -
Contraception 102: Every form of birth control has a failure rate
\\\
Here is what I do know for sure.  My former's bad behavior was confirmed by four different people. 


So you are saying they were using birth control?  And he impregnated four different women who were all on birth control (which when taken properly has a 99% success rate of working)? That seems to blow a hole in Morrigels theory. 

Regardless of those details (of which you may or may not know) I think taking a sebatacle is a good idea.  I hope you figure out how to resharpen your judgement rather than rely on someone elses judgement but thats really a personal decision.  Either way, best of luck in the future.

C~




gardenbluebird -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:07:01 AM)

Please slow down and re-read my post Wildfleurs.  You missed it entirely.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:21:22 AM)

Ok, kinda late to this party, and a lot of what I would have said already has been said, but certain things just pop out at me:

1.  Wildfluers, I think you are very intelligent, and your posts have merit, and should be read very closely, but if Morrigel and gardenbluebird are mis-understanding them, then they are not alone.

It feels as if you and Morrigel have basically decided to disagree with each other, regardless of the facts, and truthfully, I'm not sure why.

2. This entire discussion about what a "predator" is, to me is just silly.  Abuser?  Cad?  Predator?  Lordy, lordy, let's get lost in the definitions and ignore the pain that this type of individual causes.  Yeah, that's the ticket ...  who really gives a flying f*k in this particular situation?

3.  When someone reaches out for solace, they do it in different ways.  As an "intellectual" person myself, I find that I must often use my writing abilities and intellect to express my emotional pain at times (or anger), which sometimes seems to cause others to react to me in an intellectual rather than emotional way.  Not always a good thing, as in this thread, I think.

Bluebird is hurting right now.  She is venting.  We all vent.  Commiserate, lightly give her some advice, and let her do her healing.  It seems as many posters are using her bad situation to ... well .... show how damn smart they are.  Inappropriate as hell, I think.

If you want to debate the definitions and the evolutionary merits of men lying and reproduction, why not start another thread or two? 

Hell, I'll even throw in my $20, 'cause I've got lots of opinions on those subjects.

FirmKY






sharainks -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:34:26 AM)

He just sounds like another guy who uses the internet to hook up with multiple women.  Nothing unusual about that anymore.  Yes if you get involved with someone like this you tend to get hurt.  Call them sex addicts, philanderers whatever.  Its just a guy who isn't interested in forming a relationship with one person.  At the same time to try to keep all the women ready to spread he tells them what they want to hear.

It seems to me like the wording of predator is a bit strong. He is a user for sure.  The thing is that users and connivers come in all flavors, men, women, vanilla, bdsm etc.  I have to wonder about 4 women getting pregnant from this guy.  Even in this supposedly modern age there are still women who get careless about birth control and then think the resulting child gives them some hold on a man who didn't want to reproduce with them.  Yes all methods of birth control can fail.  However with most of them you should still be using condoms to prevent disease.  It gets a lot more unbelievable when you are taking the pill and using a condom and still end up pregant.  If you plan to use barrier methods you should use 2, IE foam and condoms. 

Lastly, while I do feel for the OP's hurt feelings this is life.  No one guarantees you that you won't move through life without getting your feelings hurt.  Most of us have been there, done that, and some have written the book on it. 





LordODiscipline -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:38:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

This is based on the science of anthropology.  Human infants, even in comparison to other primates, are physically helpless and need constant input from adults for a very long time.  A human female, pregnant, isolated and without support, is extremely unlikely to survive pregnancy and childbirth in the wild.  She needs community, preferably a community that includes strong males who can protect her from predators, and who will help to forage the protein sources she and her developing child will need during pregnancy and especially the first year of life. 


Yes, I have vaguely heard of and understand the concept of that "anthropology thing".
 
And, I see what you are saying -
 
However, as mentioned-  it appear s that the first human communities were matriacrchal and therefore they (for the most part took care of themselves - I agree that a community and assistance is required, but - and, again - I know many people raised from one parent who were no worse off and were strong and productive members of society... their single parent neither 'died in the wild' or (and, more practically) succumbed to their environment and happenings...
 
Is someone better off with two parents? Certainly 
Is that something required? Certainly not.

quote:

quote:

I do know that the most recent studys of ancient man (hunter gatherer phase) demonstrated a quasi-matriarchal culture with a mostly absentee father out hunting for weeks/months at a time in packs of 3-4.

Interaction between the male packs and the society was limited to the winter months and brief periods when they would return with their 'catch'. 


I know of no study or research which confirms this statement.  Sexual segregation lasting for months at a time of ALL males from ALL females in any society is rarely (I would say "never", but in science you never say "never") seen in hunter-gatherers in the modern age and there is little evidence for it in the prehistoric archaeology of which I am aware.  Our nearest cousins in primatology do not live this way; chimpanzee troops practice a fission-fusion social order in which the group tends to break up into smaller units to forage and then re-forms into larger groups for social interaction, to deal with predators and interlopers, etc..


Look into it... It was widely reported last year. First in Nature, then in all the generic journals and tabloids (*Time, Newsweek, the local newpaper under "Almost Human Interest", etc).

quote:

I assume you've seen what kwashiokor, ricketts and scurvy look like.


Well - I am not a doctor in real life, but I do play one on TV... so, I have seen the pictures of people having these.... mind you - not too often in modern society.... unless it was of the babys in the trash cans... I do not like to look at those. ;)

quote:

I also think your premise is extremely unlikely simply in terms of the predators that were abounding in most of the environments in which our ancestors lived.


Well  - if it were "MY" premise - I would not trust it at all - after all, I only play a doctor on TV
 
However - and, again... it was reported well and debated extensively over this last year (*not sure where that fact is falling through the cracks in this conversation... in fact, as a dominant male, one would assume I would shy away from such a prejudicial thing which falls into the hands and argumements of various insidly illogical feminine supremicists - Nes Pas?"

quote:

The evidence is that most of our human forebears lived in groups of roughly 30 people; I don't see all fifteen of the men in that group taking off for months at a time and leaving a group of fifteen women, children, and elderly humans (ample evidence that humans have always cared for the infirm and kept them alive long after the time that they were unable to walk unassisted) to face predators like the dire wolf, the short-faced bear, three different kinds of hunting cat including smilodon, etc., completely undefended.


Unless we are talking about the Pygmies of Paupau New Guinea, Innuits of Alaska's Northern Climes and.or various and other indigenous peoples who place their infirmed and/or very young in a postition for their demise in the event that it becomes a burden and/or resources are not available - it was not all that uncommon... and, there have also been studies which demonstrate that mothers killing of children is more common in times when the stress of civilization rises... (another interesting study - although, that delves more into the psychological nature of civilization than the anthropological)
 
~J




gardenbluebird -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 9:42:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, kinda late to this party, and a lot of what I would have said already has been said, but certain things just pop out at me:

1.  Wildfluers, I think you are very intelligent, and your posts have merit, and should be read very closely, but if Morrigel and gardenbluebird are mis-understanding them, then they are not alone.

It feels as if you and Morrigel have basically decided to disagree with each other, regardless of the facts, and truthfully, I'm not sure why.

2. This entire discussion about what a "predator" is, to me is just silly.  Abuser?  Cad?  Predator?  Lordy, lordy, let's get lost in the definitions and ignore the pain that this type of individual causes.  Yeah, that's the ticket ...  who really gives a flying f*k in this particular situation?

3.  When someone reaches out for solace, they do it in different ways.  As an "intellectual" person myself, I find that I must often use my writing abilities and intellect to express my emotional pain at times (or anger), which sometimes seems to cause others to react to me in an intellectual rather than emotional way.  Not always a good thing, as in this thread, I think.

Bluebird is hurting right now.  She is venting.  We all vent.  Commiserate, lightly give her some advice, and let her do her healing.  It seems as many posters are using her bad situation to ... well .... show how damn smart they are.  Inappropriate as hell, I think.

If you want to debate the definitions and the evolutionary merits of men lying and reproduction, why not start another thread or two? 

Hell, I'll even throw in my $20, 'cause I've got lots of opinions on those subjects.

FirmKY



Thank you.  Sigh - I give up.  I'm going to wander off and plant more flowers.

To those who are of a mind to continue the debate - have fun.  This thread officially belongs to you now.




crouchingtigress -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 10:18:31 AM)

Sharanks and Wildfleurs: i think what you both seem to be missing is that we can only base our assumptions of the events of the other womans pregnancy on the only example of the this males behavior that we do have in front of us.
 
We have a male that not just lies about "fucking around" . No. this male builds entire other lives with these women, and gives them no reason to believe that there is another whole life with another whole family across town.
 
This type of situation has been well documented with some of these males having 2-3 whole families that know nothing of each other for years at a time (the longest one i am aware of is 20 years.)
 
It is so easy for me to say (when watching Oprah from my safe happy life) how could they not have seen it coming?
 
But that is not taking into consideration the psychological needs that drive this sort of male (i am not saying women dont do this but i have no knowledge of that)...and to me that need comes from a sociopathic personality who puts himself first, needs constant validation and who likes to know he is pulling something grandiose off covertly.
 
The grandiose notion of just having several covert lives begins to get boring , they he wants to create children, and so he will do what ever it takes to assure the woman she is safe and will be supported.
 
This is the situation that we are discussing ....and i do not see the insidious psychological dynamics of this situation, excusable as a man that just fucks around, nor as a woman who ought to know better.
 
I think that if you are in a relationship , married to that person (my collar was a wedding band to me so being collared counts) and you decide to have children there is simply no blaming the woman.
 
I am huge person for self responsibility, self protection ect...but i see no fault in the woman and to hear you driving the idea to garden bluebird that it was some how the baby mommas fault seems very sexist and cruel to me.
 
I like what you write most times but on this one i feel as though you  are the black person mocking the sun burnt white person not just mocking them, slapping them too.

I dont understand how folks do not see this man behavior as predatory.
 
But that question aside, like Firmhand says, maybe it would be best to discuss the merits and psychological dynamics of a man that lives several lives in another thread, because to do so in the thread of the person who has just been blindsided and is in the healing process might be a tad unsympathetic and unkind.








crouchingtigress -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 10:27:33 AM)

i am, admittedly, not the sharpest tool in the shed.
 
would you mind summing up in a sentence or three what exactly is your point?[:)]




sharaks -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 11:09:44 AM)

My point is that all kinds of assumptions are being made about this man based on one sided information.  Its very easy to get people jumping into the fray to comfort someone.

What kind of twicks me is that based on this one sided account the man is now a predator, a sociopath, a sex addict, etc.  Wow thats a lot for someone who isn't getting to present their side.  Does he sound like a jerk a player, yes. 

Predators are a whole new ballgame.  Lets talk about the case where a man raped a woman in the middle of her having an epileptic seizure, or how about the guy who pulled a woman out of a wreck only to take her out and rape her.  Thats predatory behavior.  Both are cases that happened in this state.  Someone playing someone is everyday life. 




FirmhandKY -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 11:26:21 AM)

From a judical and scientific point of view, what you and the others say may have some validity.

But ... bluebird has been around a while ... and her posts protray a (to me) likeable, intelligent and thoughtful individual.

Her experiences to her are as real as anyone else's reality.

She didn't come here to post names.

She didn't come here to castigate all men.

She didn't come here to play the "poor luttle subbie" routine.

She came to a place that she felt some comfort, and some belief that she could cry a little, among friends.

Damn, people, lighten the hell up.

FirmKY




BuxomGoddess321 -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 12:02:19 PM)

*sigh*
There is a developmental stage, around age 5-7 called "The Age of Reason".  If a child has experienced abuse, abandoment, serious illness, childhood trauma, sometimes they detach and do not develop the ability to experience empathy for others.  When they see this later in life, and they will, if they do not seek professional help for it, they develop a personality disorder which by the very nature makes them predatory.  Normal guy:  meets a woman who is over worked, caring for a dying relative, very vulnerable and he says in his mind "I am not ready for a monogamous relationship, she is a good lady, I don't want to add to her burden or hurt her... I'll go away" that is empathy.  Predator:  "I'm going in for the kill".  This used to be called sociopathic behavior, but now is broken down into more specific personality disorders depending on what caused the problem, etc.  Any victim of child abuse will tell you, the bruises healed; it is the EMOTIONAL abuse that never heals.  I remember the rape trials of the 1960s where they used to ask the women "where you wearing a mini skirt????"  STOP BLAMING THE VICTIM.  If "playing" vulnerable women is part of YOUR daily life, I feel sorry for you and you need professional help.  Being open is normal.  Wanting to be loved is healthy and normal.  It is only when you fail to protect yourself it is not healthy, and when someone is too vulnerable that happens.  The OP admitted her vulnerabilities to everyone (overworked, caretaker for dying person, etc).  Predatory sociopathic people using the label of Dom/me should not be excused, it is abusive, they are very broken people but are still culpable.  Almost all pedophiles are victims of childhood sexual abuse, but I wouldn't hire them as babysitters or defend them. MOST victims rise above their circumstances and do develop empathy.  Why do you all want to defend this type of behaviour? Could it be YOU have to some extent shut off your ability to care also?  Seek some balance in your lives.

Be blessed,
Goddess

this was a general response, btw :)




crouchingtigress -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:15:48 PM)

excelent post...i was thinking the very thing...
quote:

Could it be YOU have to some extent shut off your ability to care also? 
.i dont understand the desire to defend this behavior but hopefully i never will.




crouchingtigress -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:29:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharaks Lets talk about the case where a man raped a woman in the middle of her having an epileptic seizure, or how about the guy who pulled a woman out of a wreck only to take her out and rape her.  Thats predatory behavior.  Both are cases that happened in this state.  Someone playing someone is everyday life. 
Lets not...[;)]...but those do sound like crimes of opportunity which is exactly what this fellow GB is talking about, seems to be guilty of, ie: you dont need to premeditate your crime to make you a predator.
 
quote:

My point is that all kinds of assumptions are being made about this man based on one sided information

We are having a discussion about people who live separate lives, and the havoc they leave in their wake, unloved children, abandoned mommas, wounded women.
 
Yes this guy is not here to defend himself, but its not really about him, its about the folks on this forum who have been played by this sort of person, and the pain that cuts so deeply.
 
It has also become a discussion on  how callous society has become to this type of destructive behavior, so much so that it is quick to dismiss and excuse the fellow, and blame the woman, by saying things like "she should have known better", "he is just fucking around".
 
Every one is entitled to their opinion, i may think he is a predator, you may not, and so it goes, but i do worry about folks that are seemingly jumping up and down to defend this fellow.
 
 
 




texancutie -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:33:30 PM)

I agree with FirmhandKY....and what the hell happened with the original thread?  Are people just lost in their own little worlds or what?  lol

I think some people just love debate for debate's sake alone.  And I also believe that there are people that just love to throw in a little extra poke at someone when that person is a little down.  Sad isn't it?  But it is pretty obvious who they are.

If it is something not very helpful to the OP, why not just start another thread somewhere?





Wildfleurs -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:35:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, kinda late to this party, and a lot of what I would have said already has been said, but certain things just pop out at me:

1.  Wildfluers, I think you are very intelligent, and your posts have merit, and should be read very closely, but if Morrigel and gardenbluebird are mis-understanding them, then they are not alone.

It feels as if you and Morrigel have basically decided to disagree with each other, regardless of the facts, and truthfully, I'm not sure why.

2. This entire discussion about what a "predator" is, to me is just silly.  Abuser?  Cad?  Predator?  Lordy, lordy, let's get lost in the definitions and ignore the pain that this type of individual causes.  Yeah, that's the ticket ...  who really gives a flying f*k in this particular situation?

3.  When someone reaches out for solace, they do it in different ways.  As an "intellectual" person myself, I find that I must often use my writing abilities and intellect to express my emotional pain at times (or anger), which sometimes seems to cause others to react to me in an intellectual rather than emotional way.  Not always a good thing, as in this thread, I think.

Bluebird is hurting right now.  She is venting.  We all vent.  Commiserate, lightly give her some advice, and let her do her healing.  It seems as many posters are using her bad situation to ... well .... show how damn smart they are.  Inappropriate as hell, I think.

If you want to debate the definitions and the evolutionary merits of men lying and reproduction, why not start another thread or two? 

Hell, I'll even throw in my $20, 'cause I've got lots of opinions on those subjects.

FirmKY



Thanks for the compliment, and I'm pretty much done with the thread as it is but I did want to add the only thought that came to my mind when reading your post.  If you really want the thread to end, just stop posting.  If no one posts the thread will die.  Its very simple.

C~




Wildfleurs -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:37:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

Every one is entitled to their opinion, i may think he is a predator, you may not, and so it goes, but i do worry about folks that are seemingly jumping up and down to defend this fellow.
 


This is for purposes of clarification.  I haven't said anything to defend this guy and I'm definitely not condoning his behavior (I believe I said earlier I don't condone lying and cheating).  I don't quite get how "I don't believe his behavior is predatory" has repeatedly gotten twisted into somehow approval of his behavior.  I don't know how many ways to say that lying is not a good thing.

C~




crouchingtigress -> RE: Why I was selected as a target for a predator (11/5/2006 2:48:24 PM)

that one was not directed at you Wildfleurs[;)] and for the record i dont see us as going head to head on this we are only having a dialog...discussing two very differentt POVs.




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