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RE: Male Abuse - 11/27/2006 8:57:39 PM

dcnovice

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<general comment>

This is a powerful thread on a subject I'd thought little about. I really appreciate everyone's honesty.

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 3:37:28 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi Marie

Thanks for explaining your position - you know, to some extent I agree with you, but I think its easier for those of us who have come through bad situations to forget how things were when we were in them.

Yes, of course we are all responsible for our actions and their consequences - I can see this in my case now, but thats been a long road, on which hindsight has developed which allows me to see what actually happened rather than what I thought had happened. For those still in or just coming out of a bad situation, the view is not so clear, and what I feel they need at that stage is compassion and understanding, rather than the cold light of day. They will gain that objectivity for themselves, when they are ready, for themselves.

Love and lust do blind us to what is actually in front of us in my experience, and can continue to blind us even when there is abuse. Its said that love is the triumph of optimism over reality (or something like that), and that I believe is all too often the case in abusive relationships. We hear from the battered wife that her husband is sorry and has promised he wont do it again, for the tenth time, and blinded by her love and optimism, she believes him and returns for more of the same. Love and optimism are I believe the original "flaws" in the one being abused, and whilst those outside the relationship implore her to leave, she will stay because she is blinded by them to the reality that the man she is with and his promises and love mean nothing. The abusee is guilty only of harbouring feelings which in other cases we would applaud.

I have an abusive relationship going on next door to me right now which demonstrates my points. My neighbour (Adrian) is an alcoholic - he may have stopped drinking for a week now, but however long that lasts he will always he an alcoholic. Last month he made "friends" with a bunch of heroin addicts in a pub here; two lads, two girls - because he fancied the girls. He invited them into his home, where they proceeded to "tidy" for him (he's typically untidy). When they left, he noticed that several of his possessions had gone missing, including an XBox.

What was his reaction? The lads had stolen his stuff. The pretty girls could not possibly have done it. I told him over and over, to report it to the police and to never let them near the place again. What does he do? Invites the prettiest girl over again. More stuff missing. He refuses point blank to acknowledge it - blinded by lust, he now claims he loves her for goodness sake! Its not the first time he's had girls do stuff like this to him either - but whatever the circumstance he will go back for more, because she's a girl. None of the girls he has had in the last two years have loved him at all - every one of them has had issues which meant that their attraction to him was purely material or sexual. He will hear nothing of it though, even if he will finally acknowledge that the addict girl doesnt love him, because her only love is heroin - because he wants sex with her. He isnt stupid by any measure, but he is blind to her nature by his love and optimism.

E

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 4:37:59 AM

Morrigel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I think there's a problem in people who believe that there is leg-hold trap stuck on their ankle and that their lives are at the mercy of everyone around them. That is pure bullshit and it is what some people wallow in, because its easier than taking control.

This is an interesting statement, coming from someone who by her own admission spent 22 years in misery and then had the bad relationship terminated by someone else. I guess the difficulty of taking control was one you never embraced? Perhaps in some ways, your position on "pity parties" is one you argue more to convince yourself than anyone else.

quote:

(oh and btw, Im sure you didnt mean your words to be to be taken by Morrigel to be used as a sword to swing in my direction. I just wanted that clear, so you dont think that I thought it was your intention in speaking to me to be hurtful. )

For someone who wants her own posts to be read as opinions on issues only, or at worst "tough love" or "telling it like it is", rather than merely statements about anyone else's life or character, you are remarkably incapable of doing the same for others.

I'm sorry you feel attacked when other people state their opinions about your ideas and arguments. However, if you are going to "sign on, like you always do, check out the threads and speak your truths", you'd best be prepared if others do the same. For the record, I don't know you well enough to "swing a sword in your direction" or "be hurtful" toward you. I do know something about bad situations, however, how difficult it can be for a person to get out of them, and that heaping blame on victims of abuse is absolutely antithetical to helping them in any way--in 99 cases out of 100.

--M

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 4:59:59 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi Marie

Thanks for explaining your position - you know, to some extent I agree with you, but I think its easier for those of us who have come through bad situations to forget how things were when we were in them.

Hindsight is always more clear, I agree. But the way I see it is if I can use what Ive learned to help someone else, why not try?

quote:

Yes, of course we are all responsible for our actions and their consequences - I can see this in my case now, but thats been a long road, on which hindsight has developed which allows me to see what actually happened rather than what I thought had happened. For those still in or just coming out of a bad situation, the view is not so clear, and what I feel they need at that stage is compassion and understanding, rather than the cold light of day. They will gain that objectivity for themselves, when they are ready, for themselves.

I agree with that statement completely, I just happen to think that they may reach that point more quickely when friends try to focus them on solutions rather than on placing blame on themselves or others.

quote:

Love and lust do blind us to what is actually in front of us in my experience, and can continue to blind us even when there is abuse. Its said that love is the triumph of optimism over reality (or something like that), and that I believe is all too often the case in abusive relationships. We hear from the battered wife that her husband is sorry and has promised he wont do it again, for the tenth time, and blinded by her love and optimism, she believes him and returns for more of the same. Love and optimism are I believe the original "flaws" in the one being abused, and whilst those outside the relationship implore her to leave, she will stay because she is blinded by them to the reality that the man she is with and his promises and love mean nothing. The abusee is guilty only of harbouring feelings which in other cases we would applaud.

I wouldnt use the word 'guilty', Because I think thats a negative like blame and fault. But I hear what you're saying. It can and does happen. It happened to me in my own marriage ( I wasnt physically abused, but he was agrressive, scary, and threatening) He would always apologize and I would always forgive. And if someone had told me "Oh Marie, its ok, youre just guilty of loving him" I might have considered staying, because afterall, it only means that I love him, therefore its acceptable, because of that love, to live this way.

I do understand compassion, and some "licking of the wounds" for a friend. But then I happen to think that helping them zero in on a solution would be more productive for them. I guess thats where Im coming from---a more of a solution-oriented attitude. Im sure kenin and others like himself will reach that point too. Its hard when you're going through it, but it does pass.

quote:

I have an abusive relationship going on next door to me right now which demonstrates my points. My neighbour (Adrian) is an alcoholic - he may have stopped drinking for a week now, but however long that lasts he will always he an alcoholic. Last month he made "friends" with a bunch of heroin addicts in a pub here; two lads, two girls - because he fancied the girls. He invited them into his home, where they proceeded to "tidy" for him (he's typically untidy). When they left, he noticed that several of his possessions had gone missing, including an XBox.

What was his reaction? The lads had stolen his stuff. The pretty girls could not possibly have done it. I told him over and over, to report it to the police and to never let them near the place again. What does he do? Invites the prettiest girl over again. More stuff missing. He refuses point blank to acknowledge it - blinded by lust, he now claims he loves her for goodness sake! Its not the first time he's had girls do stuff like this to him either - but whatever the circumstance he will go back for more, because she's a girl. None of the girls he has had in the last two years have loved him at all - every one of them has had issues which meant that their attraction to him was purely material or sexual. He will hear nothing of it though, even if he will finally acknowledge that the addict girl doesnt love him, because her only love is heroin - because he wants sex with her. He isnt stupid by any measure, but he is blind to her nature by his love and optimism.

Hmmmmm.....this lad sounds like he may be blinded by his hardon. lmaoo. But dont tell him I said that.

You make alot of good points, Ellen. Thanks for the civilized exchange of ideas. :)

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:06:40 AM

SirKenin

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Well, I can not be bothered reading any more of Marietoo's diatribes, but a poster who shall remain anonymous sent Me this copy of one of Marietoo's posts by PM.

*edit*

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 11/28/2006 5:41:40 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:07:55 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

For someone who wants her own posts to be read as opinions on issues only, or at worst "tough love" or "telling it like it is", rather than merely statements about anyone else's life or character, you are remarkably incapable of doing the same for others.

There is a big difference between making general commentary on a subject matter or speaking one's own truth-- and directly quoting someone for no other reason than to take a jab at them when they have not shown the same aggresssion towards you.
Not only is that what you did to me, but you had the nerve to take someones else's words to use as your weapon.

Your only agenda is to stir shit. And thats exactly what you do in every thread you speak on. Have at it honey. If you had meaning to me, I'd actually take the time to tell you why your points are lame, but you dont, so I wont.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 11/28/2006 5:08:17 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:13:37 AM

marieToo

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quote:

Well, I can not be bothered reading any more of Marietoo's diatribes, but a poster who shall remain anonymous sent Me this copy of one of Marietoo's posts by PM.

First of all that was on an entirely different topic and second of all, the difference is that there is NO BLAME placed on anyone. I take full responsibility for my own needs or choices. This is the lesson you arent getting. Oh and if im 'wrapped up" its because I want to be. Not because I want to whine about it and get strangers to bleed for me on a message board. This clip was about my Ds kink, not staying in a dysfunctional marriage.

Why dont you concentrate on your own healing rather than spending your time trying to research other posts of mine in order to make yourself feel right. If im such a screwball, dont read my words, buddy. This is just my point...you WANT to spend your life criticizing, and blaming every single person who doesnt agree that we should all sit here and cry for you.

Why dont you wake up and try to realize that not everyone here is trying to hurt you. Why dont you try to find some pearls of wisdom from what others are saying. You are pissed off at the entire world, and jumping down the throat of everyone who doesnt agree with you on this thread. You are nasty and abusive in your language, as you were with Seeks and everyone else who sees you for what you are. ABUSIVE

Edited to add: Im taking out the clip too, if its against TOS. I dont know.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 11/28/2006 5:47:07 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:21:17 AM

LadyEllen

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SirK - to post a personal mail in a public forum for the purpose of scoring points in this way, is not on IMO.

I did my best to convince others not to do that in respect of you, and caught an earful for it, and now here you are doing the same back, in just about the most unacceptable way.

Can we not have an exchange of views without having it turn into personality struggles, or what? This is too important a thread for it be pulled because of slanging matches.

E

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:24:01 AM

marieToo

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quote:

Well, I can not be bothered reading any more of Marietoo's diatribes, but a poster who shall remain anonymous sent Me this copy of one of Marietoo's posts by PM.

As you can see, she is not prone to getting out of unhealthy relationships either. She gets wrapped up so tight in them she can not escape. Rather, she is prone to trying to turn around and mindfuck the person if she can,

What I said kenin was that I LIKE the mindfuck that I am enduring. not that I mind fuck the other person. It was a comment about my kink. You are so pissed you cant even read straight. It was about arguments in DS relationships and how I as a submissive deal with them and enjoy them if you comprehended it. A completely different concept and subject than what was being disucssed here. You took it out of context to make yourself feel right.

It was not about staying in a dsyfunctional relationship that I felt trapped in. THAT was my marriage. Which I freely and openly spoke about here, and freely admitted how my thinking and my choices kept me in a place I didnt want to be in. Man you are one stubborn, thick headed person.

Edited to remove the PM that Kenin Posted.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 11/28/2006 5:49:11 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:28:20 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

SirK - to post a personal mail in a public forum for the purpose of scoring points in this way, is not on IMO.

I did my best to convince others not to do that in respect of you, and caught an earful for it, and now here you are doing the same back, in just about the most unacceptable way.

Can we not have an exchange of views without having it turn into personality struggles, or what? This is too important a thread for it be pulled because of slanging matches.

E

Ellen:

You are quite a peaceful person and I just dont want to continue on here. Thank you again for the exchange, but I feel at this point, that I am only adding to a bad situation, not by choice but by circumstance and its beginning to cause frustration for me that I really do not think I asked for or deserve.

I look forward to catching you in the future on other threads, though.

:)

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:39:53 AM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

SirK - to post a personal mail in a public forum for the purpose of scoring points in this way, is not on IMO.

I did my best to convince others not to do that in respect of you, and caught an earful for it, and now here you are doing the same back, in just about the most unacceptable way.

Can we not have an exchange of views without having it turn into personality struggles, or what? This is too important a thread for it be pulled because of slanging matches.

E

Hmmm. I did not quote the rest of what they said... I was told to use it as I deemed fit. The point was that she does not get out of these relationships either because she gets so tightly wrapped up in them. Anyways, I will edit My post.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 11/28/2006 5:57:21 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 5:47:19 AM

SirKenin

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Yes, Marietoo, I am pissed. You are right. I am pissed that someone that has not got a clue what the hell they are talking about, that has not been through it, that does not know what decisions and realizations I have come to, stands there in pious judgement of others. I have been through hell in the last couple of weeks. I do not ask for your pity, or anything else, save that you spare Me your judgements and "cold realities".

I do not need your "cold reality". I do not need you to tell Me the way it is. I think a drained bank account, lost house and car, scars, smashed or otherwise damaged property, lost property, losses in the thousands and thousands of dollars, police involvement and visiting her in the psych ward is enough fucking cold reality for Me thanks. If I need anything else from you to "wake Me up", I will be sure to ask, but in the meantime maybe you could spare Me. There probably is not a damn thing that could come out of your mouth right now that I have not already figured out for Myself.

It could have been when I laid there all night staring at the ceiling. Or staring off into space through the monitor when the reality finally kicked in that *I* had completely fucked Myself. Or maybe the week I spent in bed, staring at the ceiling fan spinning around and realizing what a fool I had been and that I had reached the end of the road. Do you want details on how that feels? The numb feeling? The overwhelming sensation that there must have been something else you could have done. The pleading to God to just take your life and get the torture over with. When every lead you pursue ends up at a dead end and you feel there is no hope and how good that gun is starting to look? When the police try and make *you* out to be the bad guy? The immense and overwhelming feeling of failure and loss. Make no mistake. I did not just lose a woman here. I can deal with that, and have many times. After all, I have been divorced. But no. I did not just lose a woman. Due to a bad decision that *I* made I lost everything. Friends, family, possessions, money, home, everything. I was extremely lucky that at the very last minute the landlord kicked in and offered Me an alternative solution and My ex offered Me her car to move whatever I could. I am not going to go into any more detail, but believe Me, you simply do not know even the half of it.

How about when your friends ditch you and nobody will fucking help you? Do you want to know how many so-called "friends" I have lost in the last two weeks? The chastisements I have endured? How about when every single charity and church says there is nothing they can do for you but refer you to a crisis line? Or even better, when they do not call you back at all. How about when your own damn parents bail on you and tell you that God is punishing you? You have two weeks to get the hell out of your house and you have nowhere to go. I moved whatever I could take out of that house practically by Myself. When I did get help moving the fridge, I was torn a new asshole. I did not care if I lived or died, and here is someone ripping My damn head off.

Huh? So when I need your reality check, I will ask you for it.

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 6:50:33 AM

trannysub007

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
There is a problem with that view though Marie.

The fact that the relationship is dysfunctional and one party is being abused, to me indicates that certainly the abuser does not have a healthy mind and that the one being abused, should they have come into the relationship healthy, will certainly not be of healthy mind once the abuse starts.

Agreed. It would appear that "healthy" is a term of convenience here--the convenience of dismissing some people as unworthy of compassion.

--M

It would appear that everything nasty that has been said about you on these boards is true.

edited for a typo.

WHAT?!?!?!

<edited to add ... >

   i was in an abusive relationship for about 4 years before i realized it was abusive. It started slowly, with nasty comments that, in retrospect, were quite mild compared to what they became. It took me about another 10 years before i moved out. Getting out of a situation like that, even though i KNEW it was unhealthy, was difficult. i was mentally and emotionally more than physically abused. <He threatened to take our 1 yr old away to Mexico where i would never find her if i did not have sex with him the night of my grandmother's funeral.>
  The same way a frog will try to get out of a hot pan but sit in a pan that is slowly heated, i stayed in this relationship because, at the beginning, it wasn't that bad. It slowly got worse, but since it was so gradual, it still didnt seem that bad. He did get physically abusive once, and i called the police, but they could not assure me that he would stay in jail long enough that i could get custody of the kids, that i didnt feel it was worth it to upset him. i filed for divorce about 7 years into it, and he was so upset, he didnt realize how i was feeling <despite me TELLING him how i felt> he promise to be nice, etc. Well, that lasted maybe 2 days.
   The short version, even if a person knows he/she is in an abusive relationship, it's not easy to get out of it. Mental and emotional instability are present in both parties, and that situation in itself tends to perpetuate the cycle of abuse. Not that the abused necessarily wants to be abused, though it may seem that way to an outsider. i thought i could fix him - my biggest mistake. i felt the need to fix the situation, since he said everything was my fault. <He was in an alcohol related car accident; his was the only car involved; no other cars around for MILES; nobody was injured - thankfully - he blamed it on me. In my defense, i did not accept the blame for that - but neither did he. road was wet, no street lamps, etc.>
   Kenin, i understand to some degree what You went through, on some level at least. It really wasn't til i understood my trans issues that i was able to get out of that situation.


< Message edited by trannysub007 -- 11/28/2006 8:13:06 AM >

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 10:03:42 AM

Morrigel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
There is a big difference between making general commentary on a subject matter or speaking one's own truth-- and directly quoting someone for no other reason than to take a jab at them when they have not shown the same aggresssion towards you.

In the first place, I did not initially quote you--I responded to someone else's comment, with a message of affirmation and my own thoughts on the message I was getting from previous posts in the thread.

I was not "taking a jab" at you, nor have I felt any "aggression" toward you. I do not know you and I have no personal feelings toward you whatsoever. I am responding to your words and ideas, and to the topic generally.

The fact that you felt pierced by my remark does not mean that it was intended to harm you. And honestly, if you are comfortable with your own position about who deserves sympathy and who does not, as you claim--why are you so angrily defensive?

I disagree with you that the only creatures worthy of sympathy on this planet are infants, the very old, or the severely mentally ill. I think many adults can find themselves in very bad situations which they feel powerless to change. And I believe such people need help and sympathy more than they need to be judged and condemned as "irresponsible", "weak", "stupid", "lazy", or any of a dozen other terms I have seen used, in many contexts, to describe the victims of a bad situation.

That is really all I have to say on the subject. I am sorry if you find my views upsetting.

--M

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 10:37:31 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

That is really all I have to say on the subject.

Oh I doubt that.

You'll be back to put more words in my mouth, deny responsibility for the things you said, make more mis-statements about my posts that you clearly haven't comprehended, and try even harder to get a foothold on the point that clearly eludes you.

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 10:44:42 AM

Morrigel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
Oh I doubt that.

You'll be back to put more words in my mouth, deny responsibility for the things you said, make more mis-statements about my posts that you clearly haven't comprehended, and try even harder to get a foothold on the point that clearly eludes you.

If you think my purpose in posting to this thread is to make an ass of you, rest assured that my help isn't necessary. You are doing a brilliant job of that all by yourself.

--M

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 10:48:20 AM

LadyEllen

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I give up

Who'd have thought a thread about abuse could end up with abuse?

Ironic

E

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 10:54:10 AM

caitlyn

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You should think better of posting thing like this, in my opinion:

"I think there's a problem in people who believe that there is leg-hold trap stuck on their ankle and that their lives are at the mercy of everyone around them. That is pure bullshit and it is what some people wallow in, because its easier than taking control."

You are one person that had one experience and has one opinion based on that experience. You are entitled to it, but don't be default have to throw it in the faces of others.

Peace ... cc

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RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 11:21:44 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You should think better of posting thing like this, in my opinion:

"I think there's a problem in people who believe that there is leg-hold trap stuck on their ankle and that their lives are at the mercy of everyone around them. That is pure bullshit and it is what some people wallow in, because its easier than taking control."

You are one person that had one experience and has one opinion based on that experience. You are entitled to it, but don't be default have to throw it in the faces of others.

Peace ... cc

That is the point. I was in that very place. I understand it and realize that it happens. I am not critisizing anyone else FEELING that same thing.

<<<BTW---you dont know fuck-all about my experiences or the number of them. Is there some state regulated qualificiation Im supposed to have before posting?>>

I am saying that the only way to recover from that cycle is to empower oneself by owning responsibility for being there and understanding that there IS a way out.

Why else do people talk about their experiences and what they've learned from them? I have never at any point in this thread put anyone down for being 'stuck'. I have held firm however on the fact that the reason they are stuck is because of their choices.....JUST LIKE I WAS. I even go to to say that it was MY OWN choices that kept me there. My own mistakes. Holy shit!

Honestly, I cannot believe how many people dont get that Im not judgeing people who need to get out of bad situations. Im not saying its easy. Its harder than fuck. I said that too. but no one wants to hear it. You all want to help Kenin by arguing with one person on one thread who wont pity him.

..one more time.....

The only way we will ever recover and avoid the same cycle is by taking responsibility for our own choices; In doing that we empower ourselves to make BETTER CHOICES.

The only other point was that I wont pity. I cannot help a single person alive, by sitting there and saying "poor you", but maybe....just fucking maybe...someone will read about how I did stupid shit..more than once... and learned something from it and maybe THEY will get something out of it that might help them more than me sitting here like a dimwit saying "oh poor you, I feel so sorry for you" would.
It's non productive. All of you people who claim you want to help him so bad. your words dont mean jackshit....you want to help him then type to HIM. Write to HIM. Call him....Help him find a counselor or a support group. Instead, you all sit here trying to convince me that I have no right to my beliefs. What have a single one of you (with the exception of Ellen) done to help the person that you keep telling me that I should be feeling sorry for? Better yet....what has HE done to help himself? Oh yeah...and lets not forget the person who went on a research quest for him to find prior MarieToo posts, instead of talking to him about what his plan is to get back on his feet. Lets slander marietoo instead of focusing on helping the person we claim to give a shit about. Your'e all full of complete shit. I am so done with this insanity.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 11/28/2006 11:23:33 AM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to caitlyn)

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Post #: 99

RE: Male Abuse - 11/28/2006 11:25:18 AM

ModeratorEleven