marieToo
Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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Ellen: You are very gracious and I appreciate your quick email confirming my message to you. Half the CM community has heard me say this, but my "send mail" feature here doesnt work. So I dont want you to think I was not acknowledgeing that. Before responding to your post....I actually do give a shit sometimes, about things, people and those I dont know personally. I care about certain issue and have very very strong feelings on certain issues and not so strong feelings on others, (just like anyone else) My original post on this thread was a spirited illustration of just how strongly I feel about dysfunctional/abusive situations and or relationships, and like anyone else here, those feelings are borne of my life's experiences and my own personal mileage (as they say) of what I've seen been through, done, seen experienced and whathaveyou. Ive a right to those feelings and a right to express them. Though I dont feel the right to accuse, name call, attack or call someone else a liar. None of which I did in my original commment here. When Kenin did take my general statement (which I went out of my way to point out was general feelings about both men and women) and make it about himself, by addressing me in a less than friendly manner, he opened himself up for a response. Fair and square. The response he got was in direct response to his own actions. Asking me to quiet down in order to calm him down is never going to help him. He needs to learn (like anyone else, regardless of respective pains in life) that his own actions cause certain consequences. Cause....Affect. Simple. After he did address me, I responded in a (For lack of a better term) "tough love" kind of way, rather than with a sympathic shoulder. And for that decision on my part, I experienced the consequences of Kenin's anger. But at no point did I ever become responsible for his words. I can only be accountable for my own. Your post: quote:
There is a problem with that view though Marie. I dont think my view has anything to do with anyone's situation or causes a problem for anyone; its only my view.. I think my view is mostly insignificant to most people except for maybe those I chose to share it with, or those who may find value in it. And my view is all I left on this thread. It was not until I was personally attacked by several people, and bit everyone of them back , that suddenly I became a non-compassionate piece of shit. Here is my philosophy on this matter. I think there is a problem in blaming other people. I think there is a problem in believing there is no way out. I think there is a problem in trying over and over and still trying when you see a pattern. I think there is a problem when ANYONE (not Kenin here neccessarily, but anyone) stays in a situation that sucks because they hoped against hope that it would change. I think there's a problem in people who believe that there is leg-hold trap stuck on their ankle and that their lives are at the mercy of everyone around them. That is pure bullshit and it is what some people wallow in, because its easier than taking control.
quote:
The fact that the relationship is dysfunctional and one party is being abused, to me indicates that certainly the abuser does not have a healthy mind and that the one being abused, should they have come into the relationship healthy, will certainly not be of healthy mind once the abuse starts. I guess "healthy mind" is subjective. (oh and btw, Im sure you didnt mean your words to be to be taken by Morrigel to be used as a sword to swing in my direction. I just wanted that clear, so you dont think that I thought it was your intention in speaking to me to be hurtful. ) Anyway....To me, when I say "healthy mind"...I mean those who are not mentally disabled or handicapped. Even anger managment and depression issues can be treated with counseling and or medications. When I say the term "healthy mind" I mean a person who KNOWS they are in a bad situation but they chose to stay. Whether the abuser or the abusEE. If you KNOW you are doing wrong, or know you are being treated wrong, then in my pov, youre healthy-minded enough to do something about it. I understand trying to salvage a marriage, a relationship (of any kind for that matter) But I do not have compassion for those who chose to stay after they see time and time again, that the abuse is not going to stop. I think they run the risk of ending up in a really bad place...ie..court room, legal accusions, serious injury or even death for god's sake. I think when people sit here and tell the abusEE that it wasnt their fault, they are doing more harm than good. I think when we pat someone on the back and say "you poor thing, I feel so bad that youve gone through this, it was all his/her fault" etc etc, we enable them to continue in the mindset that they had NO CONTROL over what happended to them. We enable them to continue a cycle of self pity, nevermind repeating the same pattern time after time after time. Only my opinion...granted....but once again, my opinion was all I stated. I did not address anyone directly about their particular circumstandces, until they came up in my face with aggression because my view did not match their own. quote:
To those outside, it sure looks easy just to leave him/her, but to someone trapped in a cycle of abuse, with the consequent undermining of their self esteem that the abuse produces, its really not that easy I'm sure. Who is on the "outside", Ellen? Who can't say that at some point at some time in their lives, they haven't experienced an abuse of some type, a tragedy of some type, a hardship of some type, a breakdown of self esteem, a breach of trust? Hell, no one I know. You are correct, its not "Easy". And that is why some ppl stay,(not ALL people, but alot of people) because its easier than doing what has to be done, because its easier than facing the changes, the fears, the shame or embarressment that they perceive they are going to suffer. Doing what has to be done is hard. Lots of things are hard. And not that you have done this Ellen, but just because I am tired of everyone holding up their "you-have-no-idea-what-you're-talking-about-you-non compassionate-non-caring-bitch, so-just-shut-the-fuck-up-Marie" badge, Im going to spill a certain amount of personal details beyond what I would normally share. Do I need to prove something? No. Do I actually give a shit sometimes ? Yes, Im guilty as charged. In my very first Ds relationship in my mid thirties (when I was still married...yes married) I got involved way over my head with a man who was less than ethical. I mean, I wasnt physically abused. I was safe in that sense with him. But he was the type of guy who would easily take advantage of a newbie and not give a shit what happened to her when he was done using her. There were people who knew him and told me that he wasn't the best choice for me. I of course, knew better. lol. Along the way and through-out the months with him (this was realtime) I saw red flags, certain things that didnt feel right. And instead of listening to my inner voice, I shrugged it off as a mere whisper, because dammit, I wanted this relationship to be what I wanted it to be. I had needs that seemed more important to me than being in a healthy relationship. My needs took priority over my common sense. Even when this bastard lied to me, I forgave him etc etc. I willingly put up with this shit, thinking that somehow I would win him over and it would change when he saw how devoted I was becoming to him. Well....he didnt change. He took me to a level of submission that reached into my emotions and he enjoyed me for as long as he wanted to and then he was done with me. He dumped me to the curb like yesterday's trash without the opportunity of even ending it with me in person and having myself a cry in his arms. I know it doesnt sound like a big deal, but this experience layed me lower than anything I had ever felt in my life. I thought I was going to split in half. I am not being dramatic or exagerating when I say it took me a good 2 yrs to scrape my body parts up off the floor and put myself back together again. I was depressed, I had no motivation and my self worth felt like it had been ground into a meaningless pile of dust. What did I do about it? I whined and I blamed him for what he had done to me. And I seeked validation that he really was the son-of-a bitch I said he was, from those who knew us both. I needed to hear that I did nothing wrong and it was all his fault. And I solicited every shred of pity I could, from any person who would give it to me. I got support which I needed, but I also had people telling me that I had to learn to make better choices next time and I needed to be responsible for those choices next time and Boy did that piss me off. Well, it took me a few years to learn this lesson, but I finally accepted FULLY that it wasn't this bastards fault that I had been hurt. He wasn't to blame for lying to me, deceiving me, using me, dumping me. There was only one person to hold responsible for my CHOICE in a partner and the consequences of that choice......ME. And that is what i was trying to get across to Kenin or anyone else caught up this cycle of bullshit. Its not about beating up someone who's already been victimized. Its about making them see that they have the freedom, the right, the responsibility to make better choices for themselves, instead of wasting useless energy on anger and blame and the dreaded word "Fault". It such a heavy load to carry. You can curse the other person, and curse their parents, curse their friends, curse people in a chatroom,, curse your neighbors, curse a big mouth broad from Jersey, but unless and until we stop BLAMING others, and instead wrap our minds around the fact that it is OUR own choices that cause the results and consequences we experience, we are going to end up in the exact same place. You see once you get the lesson that our choices and the consequences of those choices are nobody's but our own, we can then see that it works the other way as well. "hey If I make better choices, I can cause better results for myself, thereby living a more peaceful and happy life. Who is in control? One person. But if we waft around through life believing that someone else is at fault for the place we're in, then we are fucked. Pure and simple. That is my belief. And that is what I tried to express.
Then we have the issue about how hard it is for a poor poor person in a dysfunctinal relationship who doesnt have the strength to make a change.
I was in a 22 year relationship with my ex husband. I had been with him since I was 18-- my entire adult life from 18-39. (Im 42 now). I was miserable for years but I stayed because it was easier than doing what I know I should have done years earlier. Certain circumstances led him to file for divorce; when that happened, the definition of the word "Fear" was taken to new heights in my world. How will I make it alone, How will I pay the mortgage, how will I care for my child, how will I fix a leak or a flat tire, how will I ever sleep again knowing that Im all there is....little old me across the hallway from my daughter to protect her against an intruder or rescue her in a fire, how will I ever be able to do it all alone? How will I tell my family, my friends, how will I handle the embarressent and the admission of failed marriage? How will I handle the adjustment of something that I had known for 22 years? As the proceedings began, my ex tried to back out in the early stages and wanted to patch it up. As scared as I was of the thought of going through with a divorce. I did what I needed to do, and I filed my counterclaim "Patching it up" wouldve been easier. but that wasnt the path I chose. Scared or not, I did what I needed to do. And if I had stayed, Id be the only one responsible for my misery. Here I am 2 1/2 yrs later, divorced!! Im not broken into pieces, my daughter is finer than frogs hair split two ways, Im not broke, Im not depressed, my home is cared for, Im not ashmaed, or embarressed and Im not scared of the dark anymore. And guess what? I aint nothing special. My self-esteem doesnt shine like Orion itself in the midnight sky. Im just another person who was scared and stuck in a cycle. And if I can change it, anyone with the will to do what they know is right can do it. No, I will not join a pity party. Why? because I believe it does them more harm than good, therefore I chose not to partake in it. If a friend came to me and needed help (or even a stranger) I would give it. I would give support. I would give whatever tool I had to help them make the necessary changes, but I will not sit there and tell a friend that she bore no responsibility in what she had gone through and spend the night eating ice cream and blaming the scumbag who threw an eggplant at her head and anyone else who passes by who doesnt feel sorry for her. I'm sad for homeless hungry animals, Im sad for kids who didnt get dinner tonight, Im sad for elderly abuse, people who are terminally ill and my body aches for children of abuse. But I am not going to sit here and jump on the band wagon of "oh you poor thing, poor poor you". Im going to sign on, like I always do, check out the threads and speak my truths. Which is exactly what I did. If that causes someone stress, or pain, Id say that they have bigger problems, that most likely existed long before they ever read a post of mine.
< Message edited by marieToo -- 11/27/2006 8:05:29 PM >
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marie.
I give good agita.
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