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Truth - 12/1/2006 2:50:54 AM   
polyamorous


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Can anyone explain why a sub will hide their true feelings even to the cost of the relationship the sub was trying to save? This has happened to me too many times. I ask the right questions. I am told this has happened to many other Master/Misstresses.
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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 2:58:37 AM   
Quivver


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Possibly because they didnt want ~saved~?

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The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 2:59:47 AM   
Lovetolose


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Hi I am brand new to this forum so have no advice but am not quite sure I understand what you are asking...what happened?

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 3:21:42 AM   
Celeste43


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Fear of speaking out.

One of the things that can happen in a D/s relationship is that the s doesn't feel capable of bringing up unpleasant things. They just can't face seeing the D upset or unhappy. So much so, that they will hide things rather than cause this.

The solution is writing it down. If you feel communication is lacking, then you could require a journal or encourage email. Yes even though we live together I have been known to email him about things I don't feel comfortable talking about. These days I'm lazy and will write him letters while sitting in bed and leave them under his pillow for when he returns.

This allows me the ability to say the bad things without him being angry or upset with me. It allows him time to think about things before reacting.

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 3:41:15 AM   
julietsierra


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At first I typed this generically, but in rereading, I realized you asked specifically about the behavior of submissives, so I changed this up to more appropriately address your question. However, any of these things can be easily switched around so that the roles are reversed.

I don't think relationships generally end in one fell swoop. Most of the time, it's the accumulation of "the little things." It's the time the submissive calls and the Dominant is unavailable  - over and over again. By the time the two people see each other, the submissive is just so happy that they are finally seeing each other that he/she says nothing. The submissive honestly believes that he or she has let it go and it's no big deal. But it is. Our minds are nifty little catalogs - even when we don't want them to be, and even when we don't plan them to be. That moment just gets stored away up there and when things are a bit more difficult, that memory and many others get brought out, almost in list form.

It's the time the submissive did try to talk to the other person and chose the wrong time, the wrong day, the wrong way to attempt this. Instead of listening and trying to understand what the submissive was saying, the dominant got defensive, and said things that gave the impression that the submissive's position in that relationship was nebulous at best. From that moment on, that "threat" (even if not intended as a threat) makes itself known and the submissive who was trying to talk about what he or she felt starts to censor what he or she says. Very rarely, in my experience do we get past this threat once issued - and we carry it to other relationships, watching what we say so that we never get issued that threat.

It's the times when Dominants feel that simple signs of affection are somehow not a part of what a D/s relationship is. I guess it's a fear of being that vulnerable - I don't know. Don't tell someone you care, and eventually, the person not being told begins to think that the feelings aren't there. The submissive simply get tired of waiting to hear they're valued and begin the process of preparing to move on. On into the catalog those feelings go.

It happens in those first few conversations we have with each other when we're busy being defensive and are still trying to protect ourselves and we hear from the dominant, "if you don't like something, the best thing is to just walk away." That's great at the beginning, but later on, when our hearts are involved, our fears then become "if he doesn't like what I say, he'll leave." We say nothing. That fear was already in our catalog.

Yes, many of these, if not all of these have to deal with insecurity, and yes, there are some people out there who are so secure they'd never ever ever take part in these examples, but I'd venture to say, and with no data to back me up, that most of us face many of these situations often. And they're never really intended - or even hoped for.

The other side of that insecurity coin though is that if dominants are taking the lead, they have to realize that HOW they lead often creates environments where we say nothing, out of fear we're jeopardizing the very thing that  NOT saying anything jeopardizes.

It's mixed up. It's really mixed up.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 12/1/2006 3:52:13 AM >

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 5:01:41 AM   
JustWhims


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they are not ready to face the truth of their desires, they are not commited to making the relationship real, they are cyber players.... pick one.
[and hi julliet! ]

Whims

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 5:07:00 AM   
RedSavageSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustWhims

they are not ready to face the truth of their desires, they are not commited to making the relationship real, they are cyber players.... pick one.
[and hi julliet! ]

Whims


So the only reason someone might have problems with being honest is that they are "dishonest"?  Personally, I much prefer juliet's posting as it seems much more realistic in possibilities.

Not every failed relationship is due to "players" in the scene.


_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 5:30:44 AM   
Lovetolose


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Ok, that is helpful. I think for me the most useful comment was that about being valued for your role and what you give and what you bring...I can get that completely. If that was missing and I didn't feel cared for or vital then yep I would be out of there too. I don't know if what has been said helps polyamorous but it helps me. Just because you feel submissive doesn't mean that you don't have an ego about what you do, who are you are and I guess if it did ...what would be the fun in that?

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 5:36:24 AM   
JustWhims


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not necessarily "dishonest"....  altho it can be seen as such. i see people that have come top the truth about their desires later in life, and cant face up to what they have always been taught to be perverted, wrong, evil... and yet that desire still simmers below the surface.  they might panic at the idea it could come true, and subconsciously act in such a way as to end the budding relationship.

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 5:52:01 AM   
MmakeMme


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Many submissives are pleasers. They do not want to make others feel bad, believe they can cope, and they compartmentalize their negative feelings; but the problem is that these nicely packed boxes open back up again. It can make a mess.

A lot of this behavior has its roots in childhood and it carries through to adulthood. The family did not discuss feelings, or if they did, it was a negative experience. Pleasers have been taught that positive emotion is the only acceptable emotion, and negative emotion must be hidden. They feel that their negative emotions reflect on them and they must overcome. They feel anger, resentment, sorrow, jealousy (and any other numbers of "negative" feelings) are their fault and thus they must overcome them silently.

If only my therapist could see me now. ~hands clasped piously~

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 6:50:09 AM   
RiotGirl


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Sometimes a subs feelings may actually hinder a relationship - so instead of speaking out - she chooses to work through it herself.  

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:11:40 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

Sometimes a subs feelings may actually hinder a relationship - so instead of speaking out - she chooses to work through it herself.  


You know, I have been on the end of that in my last relationship.  It's really great if what she works through ends up making the relationship stronger.  I suppose its great (for her)if she works through what she is going through and decides she will be better off elsewhere.  When it is not so great is when it is something vital to the relationship and means its survival/destruction and no matter what happens = survival or destruction...it doesn't get talked about when all the inner work is done.  If the relationship survives, there is this idea on the submissive's part that "Hey, I've worked it out in my own head about how to deal with/change this-me so I don't need to share with him what I've discovered.  Better left unsaid...".  If the relationship is ended, there is the idea that "No use talking about it...he didn't listen wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when this all started...why should I give him any reasons now why I am walking out the door?"  In either case...success or failure...no communication has taken place.  Now, if the dominant has been so dense/self-absorbed that he has not even picked up on the fact that something is wrong and asked...maybe that treatment is deserved.  If the dominant has been aware and it has been withheld anyway, then where is the communication that so many so they "crave"?

Personally, I know that after that experience I have had a very hard time restraining myself from asking those in my life almost constantly "So what's going on?  Everything going O.K. for you?  Anything we should talk about?"  My unmentionables have especially caught the brunt of this.

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:12:40 AM   
toservez


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The big question to me about that is what type of feelings? I would think from the nature of the message you are talking about the negative type ones like being unhappy, upset and thigs like that.

While I do not dismiss that submissives are pleasers in general and do not like to burden the people they care about, I do not think that is all there is to this issue. To me there are two main reasons for hiding of feelings to cause significant damage in a relationship of this type. One, is the person has either naturally or learned from growing up or other relationships to hide their feelings. The other reason maybe the relationship itself by means of the atmosphere and comfort in communication between the two parties. Are negative feelings expressed early on knocked down as unsubmissive like by the dominant or met with just get over type attitude? Is communication of feelings been discussed and monitored with maybe routine things done to make sure they are dealt with.

If this supressing of feelings happens to you more than once, then I think it could not hurt for a dominant to look a little bit in the mirror and see if they are doing something and/or change some things for the next time.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:18:59 AM   
Aine


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And in working though it themselves, sometimes innocently omitting valuable information, many times the D can see that the s is internally dealing with something that the s plays off as unimportant, or "nothing's bothering them".  When in truth, it's eating them alive and hindering their daily attitude and abililty to serve/enthusiasm/focus.

Sometimes omission paired with seemingly harmless little white lies are just as damaging as intentional/malicious lies.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:26:50 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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If you save them, they might lose that level of attention.

They honestly don't know HOW to be fully honest.

Think if you're the type of personality who enables this behavior in others.  Lots of good nurturing dominants often end up in the trap of attracting drama llama subs who suck out all their energy and then leave them for the next person once they realize they can't keep up the game anymore without REALLY making an honest go of it.  You end up getting used.

Are you enabling them?  Are you somehow attracting these people and might change your methods to not let it get that far before figuring out their methods?  Most of the time this is a very unconscious process and the women themselves would highly deny it if you directly asked them. 

But a lot of women grow up learning that drama is the only way they can cope with life and get attention from others- some of them EVEN denying the whole time they LIKE attention and drama.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:28:33 AM   
BRNaughtyAngel


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I'm sure many of us have been guilty of putting our needs and desires on the back burner.  I did it in every vanilla relationship I was in, then when it became overwhelming and I spoke up (never rude or demanding), my feelings were basically rejected, so I learned to just keep things to myself.

This is an issue I'm learning to overcome and one way He is helping me to do that is to write down my needs and send them to him (I do it in an email).  Even if it's something basic, if I feel it's a need and not a want, I include it. 

And if I feel that I am unable to express my feelings about something to him on the phone or face to face, I find it much easier to send them in an email.  That gives me time to think out what I want to say, and it gives him time to deal with what I'm sharing without having to give an immediate response. 



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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:33:57 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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It doesn't have anything to do with them being submissive. It has everything to do with them being people who do not understand about proper communication, relationship dynamics, setting boundary issues, the realities of love and being a healthy adult. We've all been there, on both sides.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:37:39 AM   
toservez


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From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

If you save them, they might lose that level of attention.

They honestly don't know HOW to be fully honest.

Think if you're the type of personality who enables this behavior in others.  Lots of good nurturing dominants often end up in the trap of attracting drama llama subs who suck out all their energy and then leave them for the next person once they realize they can't keep up the game anymore without REALLY making an honest go of it.  You end up getting used.

Are you enabling them?  Are you somehow attracting these people and might change your methods to not let it get that far before figuring out their methods?  Most of the time this is a very unconscious process and the women themselves would highly deny it if you directly asked them. 

But a lot of women grow up learning that drama is the only way they can cope with life and get attention from others- some of them EVEN denying the whole time they LIKE attention and drama.


I am sorry but to me this makes no sense when talking about hiding of feelings. If anything the hiding of feelings is to eliminate drama and attention for yourself and when it finally bubbles out the problem grew too large for the person to handle.

Drama queens and attention addicts create drama and over dose on the indulging in their feelings to create drama and attention to anything. I would almost say that is the complete opposite of hiding of feelings.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 7:43:11 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
Drama queens and attention addicts create drama and over dose on the indulging in their feelings to create drama and attention to anything. I would almost say that is the complete opposite of hiding of feelings.

You don't think hiding feelings can create drama?

It's quite easy to become addicted to someone saying "Cmon, tell me what's wrong, let me help you, I'm here for you, it's ok."

If you're actually honest and open...they might not say that anymore because there won't be any more problems.

I'm not saying it's rational, I'm saying it's reality.

And again, that's not the ONLY reason- for many it's because they DONT KNOW HOW to really communicate openly and honestly and just fall back on their old bad habits.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Truth - 12/1/2006 8:02:04 AM   
toservez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
Drama queens and attention addicts create drama and over dose on the indulging in their feelings to create drama and attention to anything. I would almost say that is the complete opposite of hiding of feelings.

You don't think hiding feelings can create drama?

It's quite easy to become addicted to someone saying "Cmon, tell me what's wrong, let me help you, I'm here for you, it's ok."

If you're actually honest and open...they might not say that anymore because there won't be any more problems.

I'm not saying it's rational, I'm saying it's reality.

And again, that's not the ONLY reason- for many it's because they DONT KNOW HOW to really communicate openly and honestly and just fall back on their old bad habits.


No, hiding feelings does create problems which is the core fo a drama, but hiding of feelings that causes a relationship to break is not about people who attentionally or unintentionally create drama and attention for themselves.

Drama and attention addicts take minor or short term feelings and do the passive aggresive thing to feed the feelings until they reach a stage to boil over and create the drama and attention that you refer to. People who hide their feelings that are so serious in nature that it goes to core issues in a relationship and eventual harm that relationship are very much doing the opposite. Hiding feelings to try to avoid the drama and attention to them or the acutal problems.

Communication is of course the key. Ones truly hiding have difficult in expression and drama queens it has less to do with communication and more to do with in some way enjoying the whole play they create. To me two very different issues.


< Message edited by toservez -- 12/1/2006 8:03:19 AM >


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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