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RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 2:32:34 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

Personally, I could care less what, and how others define themselves. I could care less if others get offended by the way someone defines themselves. As long as I know who and what I am; and as long as Master is pleased with that; then I am perfectly content.

I will admit though that more often than not, when I see someone get on their 'holier than thou pedastal" ( I believe that is how you referred to it? ) it is because another person told them that they were mindless, mentally impaired, robotic, or a danger to themselves in regards to their slavery.

Believe me, if someone was to tell me that I was mentally impaired because I allowed Master to do with me what he wants; I would climb up on my pedastal and start waving that well earned merit badge. It took me a very long time to get to the stage that I am in my life; and I earned every single step of it.


kalira,
In your first paragraph you said that you don't care how others define themselves and you don't care if others get offended when someone tries to define them. In your second paragraph you say that getting on a pedestal can be justified if someone defines something in a way they don't like. And in your third paragraph you state how you would be offended and see justification in getting on a pedestal and waving your badge if they made a judgement about you.

I have to ask....why would you care? Why not just say "sorry you feel that way but I'm happy with it"? To say that you would get up on your pedestal and wave your well earned merit badge implies that you think that such things should exist and by virtue of your life experiences you have earned the right to place yourself above another and wave it in their face. It seems to me that such action would only serve to detract from who you are..

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Kalira)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 2:33:39 PM   
SlaveAkasha


Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Some of us don't mind being objects, things, and nothing more.  I don't happen to be one of them, but it all comes down to each person picking and being what is best for them.  I don't think anyone can play the victim and the poor me card in that situation, they have made their choice, just like the rest of us.
 
I have talked to Doms that didn't want to take the control I am giving up, and others that didn't think I was giving up enough.  It's all about taste and what fulfills the person on an emotional, mental, and physical level.
 
I would never not be true to myself, but that means that I pick the person that allows me to be that.  What I am, may not be what you are.  I suppose I like to think that those giving up themselves, are being exactly what they should and being true to who they are.
 
It doesn't make them more of a slave than the other, or more of a sub..they are just someone that wants something different out of their life than I do.
 
Kasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 3:25:05 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:


It may be D/s but it still is not a one way street. It's an energy EXCHANGE, not sucking someone dry.
This is not just an internet issue, it's actually very prevalent in the face to face society's as well.
suzanne

Suzanne

You don't know how many times when I read your posts or saw you at the clubs that I wanted to take you aside and either lovingly hold you or smack you upside the head to get you to a good place of self-realization.

But I hold above all else the choice and faith in adults that they choose what they know it best for them at that time.  I'm glad I held control of myself and I'm more glad that you have found where you need to be.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 3:25:12 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		There does seem to be a mindset that in order to evolve into successful D/s relationship that a submissive/slave must scarifice their self-identity.  For me, those that express a lost of self-identity it will raise alot of red flags.  With all the reading and learning that I have gathered to this date, I have yet to see it to be a mentally healthy exercise to lose one's self-identity.

A person that identifies as a submissive/slave will find themselves stronger than the person that attempts to absorb the identity that another has of them.  A self-identified person will have the ability to grow and enhance their own self-esteem that is dependent from within themselves.  An individual whose self-identity is dependent on another will also have their self-esteem/confidence dependent outside of themselves.

We came into this world as dependent indivduals.  It was only through establishing our independence that we discover our identities and can grow into healthy confident adults.  As we grow as adults we find ourselves with the challenge of maintaining a constructive and happy relationship.  This is a challenge that many struggle with as evident by the number of failed relationships that is evident for all of us to see.

I see to often that individuals that are struggling in their efforts to establish a healthy relationship dynamic will evolve into a Co-dependency relationship.  Submissives (Dominants not excluded) in particular have been more like to set themselves up into a Co-dependency dynamic.  These types of relationships could actually be rather sucessful... IF the cycle is maintained.  Depending on the exact dependency issues (be thy positive/negative) one can see a happy co-dependent situation or see a unhappy relationship.  I personally do not see that positive co-depedency dynamics as being very likely in most cases.  Most co-dependency dynamics evolve into a more destructive path.

The other path that many try to follow is the Inter-dependency relationships.  Inter-dependency is more about the WE of the relationship rather than the "I" of independence or the "Him/Her" of co-dependency.  Many individuals have to learned how to evolve their views of their self-identity as an independent individual into that of an independent person apart of a Inter-dependent relationship.  I see that as we grow into an interdependent relationship our self-identity evolves and grows.  We start to look at life and choices not in just in the context of "I" but as of "We" as well.   Our self-identities do not have to become lost in this Inter-dependent relationship.  It is really the sharing and appreciation of all the self-identities that exist in the relationship.  As we share and become more open to those in the relationship... I see the inter-depedency grows and if becomes healthier and happier.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 3:47:29 PM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

people who seem to be implying that in order to be classified a submissive or, more on topic, a slave...that you're only purpose in life is the pleasure, gratification of another and that you should have no thought of self.


This is not something new to me, I think these things come and go in cycles.
 
Yet even those who take this stance are getting something from being that type of "uber" slave or they would not be doing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin One does not have to lose all their sense of self to participate here. One does not have to stop caring about their own body, their own heart or their own soul to be included. One does not have to be void of self respect to be considered a member of this lifestyle. You CAN do this and still love, care for and respect yourself.


To me someone who quits caring about these things is a person who needs to step back from WIITWD and take a break to rediscover what is important.
 
To lose your sense of self can be a dangerous thing.
 
I think in submitting we all give up some things to gain others. But there is a point where you are giving up too much.
 
Even I have has occasion to ask myself "What price for my soul".
 
There are lines every one of us needs to draw and keep clear so as not to give up the inner core of who we are or I think we are in danger of losing ourselves.
 
Is Scooter responsible for my happiness, yes to a degree. Ultimately though it is up to me to decide what I require in our relationship to be happy and to communicate these things to him.
 
 
 

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 3:59:43 PM   
Altina


Posts: 14
Status: offline 		Disclaimer: this is a personal opinion and nothing more

quote:

people who seem to be implying that in order to be classified a submissive or, more on topic, a slave...that you're only purpose in life is the pleasure, gratification of another and that you should have no thought of self.

While I do hold with the idea that a slave should put their owners interests far above their own; you must also remember that the owner is not exempt from responsibility either. They must see to not only the immediate needs of their property, but also the long term wants that are there.
 
What many forget is that many slaves have very simple wants. They sincerely want nothing more than their owner's happiness above all else. By placing the needs and wants of the owner above their own; they are in fact receiving the very thing that is most important to them.
quote:

One does not have to lose all their sense of self to participate here.

I will admit to confusion here. Why would you assume that a slave who places the wants and needs of the owner above their own; loses their sense of self?
quote:

You CAN do this and still love, care for and respect yourself.

And you can place the care for yourself into the hands of another and still retain respect; still command love, and still be cared for.
quote:

that they be treated with at least every bit of respect that a human being deserves

This is where I differ. To become property is just that; to become property. It does not mean that you lose being human; however it does mean that you become nothing more than something that is owned. The owner decides how much respect he/she will grant to the property.
 
As I said though at the beginning, this is only my personal opinion.
 

_____________________________

trinity

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 5:18:50 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
This post is to no one in particular...just commentary on a trend that I have been noticing and have even received a few emails about. I have noticed on the boards lately, people who seem to be implying that in order to be classified a submissive or, more on topic, a slave...that you're only purpose in life is the pleasure, gratification of another and that you should have no thought of self.
 
I don’t think that you (you in a universal sense of the term) are supposed to have no thought or self, but I do think that someone’s will has to be the guiding force for decisions and such and at the end of the day its got to be the dominants for me to consider it D/s or M/s.  But ultimately what I consider being D/s or M/s shouldn’t matter, and in fact what others consider D/s or M/s shouldn’t matter (but obviously it does matter some – otherwise this thread wouldn’t be here).  
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
 
Submission and slavery can be joyful. One doesn't have to be a martyr to be one. One can be one because it's fun, it's fulfilling and it pleases them. One can be one and still have wants. One can be one and still demand...yes I did say DEMAND....that they be treated with at least every bit of respect that a human being deserves. It doesn't make them any less slavely because they demand and will not settle for less than that.  

I agree that slavery can be joyful, in fact my owner prefers it be joyful but is willing for it not to be completely joyful if its about him getting what he wants.  However I don’t think you can come from a place of slavery and quite literally demand that someone do something.  I think if you’ve got self esteem, some decent level of self worth and sense of self then I think the chances of ending up with someone who doesn’t believe in honoring and taking pride in their slaves worth are pretty low.  But I can’t see demanding and slavery co-existing.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 5:31:36 PM   
nikaa


Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		Fast reply:
 
I layed my head on Phoenix's lap, looked up at him and begged to be his because of who he was. He placed his collar on my kneck and took me as his because of who I was. Though we have grown as friends, Master and slave, and even as parents we are still Phoenix and Nika. Neither of us want the other to stop being who and what we are, after all it was those things that brought us together as not only Master and slave but best friends.

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika


The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.


Wakan Tankan Nici Un




(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/14/2006 5:55:22 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		I don't feel that I have ever really lost the sense of who I am or what I am about since knowing my Master.  He opened my eyes to things that I did not know were out there in this world, and also helped me realize that by stepping out of my perceived comfort zone, I might actually find a place that was more comfortable to me.  I am glad that I have come to know more of myself and the type of relationship that makes me feel the most fulfilled.  In finding this place of contentment, I feel that I have laid claim to myself, not lost myself.  He does not want me to lose who I am because who I am completes Him, makes Him laugh and smile, makes Him a little crazy when I ask "grand philosophical questions" ten minutes before He is ready to go to bed, and makes the protective part of Him feel it has purpose.  He loves me...  and I love Him.  I have my best friend, lover, and Master rolled into one, and by being His girl, His sub, His slave...  I have never lost one ounce of me. 

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to nikaa)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 3:36:44 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead
He loves me...  and I love Him.  I have my best friend, lover, and Master rolled into one, and by being His girl, His sub, His slave...  I have never lost one ounce of me. 


That is beautiful Daddysredhead. Exactly what I am talking about too...one can indeed find great joy here. I'm not saying life is going to be champagne and roses every moment of the day...but I am saying that this can be a happy and joyful place to be. Sometimes I read the words of others and hear no happiness or joy...thank you.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Daddysredhead)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 4:41:30 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		mistoferin i thank you for your post. i'm not sure why i post anything anymore since there seems to be a trend for so many threads to end up in arguement over who is right, even when a post doesn't contain any judgements whatsoever.  i've even seen posts hijacked into flamethrowing when asking "where can i find a....[whatever]?"   *sigh*  

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 4:47:34 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Sometimes I read the words of others and hear no happiness or joy...thank you.


There are more threads about broken hearts than there are about happy hearts.  There are lessons in the broken hearts threads.  I think if stupid people do dumb things, and one newbie can learn from the stupid mistake of another, it's good.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 4:57:28 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
There are more threads about broken hearts than there are about happy hearts.  There are lessons in the broken hearts threads.  I think if stupid people do dumb things, and one newbie can learn from the stupid mistake of another, it's good.


I think that you are absolutely right Katy. I think that it is also important though for them to see that there are at least some of us here who are blissfully happy in our submission/slavery and not just suffering through. We can be whole people in our own right, love ourselves and experience growth in our relationship, and be an enhancement to them...without having to be absorbed by them.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/15/2006 5:09:48 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 5:31:42 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:


It may be D/s but it still is not a one way street. It's an energy EXCHANGE, not sucking someone dry.
This is not just an internet issue, it's actually very prevalent in the face to face society's as well.
suzanne

Suzanne

You don't know how many times when I read your posts or saw you at the clubs that I wanted to take you aside and either lovingly hold you or smack you upside the head to get you to a good place of self-realization.

But I hold above all else the choice and faith in adults that they choose what they know it best for them at that time.  I'm glad I held control of myself and I'm more glad that you have found where you need to be.

Hi LA,

It's not that I didn't recognize what he was doing was wrong.
It was that I loved him with my everything and I thought if I could just follow him well enough one day he would be pleased with me.
Over all even though the relationship tore me up worse than any relationship I had in my life the insight, knowledge, & experience I had will keep me from regretting it.
Though it was like a war zone after the first 6 months I still value having Rick as my Sir and I still care about him as a friend and hold no resentments toward him.
We still talk and he's happy I'm now with Sir Rob as he knows him well and is confident he'll treat me right.
In his own defense I'd like to say none of the emotional abuse was intentional or done with malice & he tried to do what he thought was the right thing with all his heart.
He admits he failed and has (after being in the life over 20 years) completely turned his back on BDSM as he said he realized his approach and how he thought he had to be, to be a real Dom was demonic.
As he hurt both of us (and my sub sister) so severely with his actions he did not want to be a Dom any more ever.
We all do the best we can, and we all in some things make mistakes.


I do remember the little things you mentioned to me about how you felt about things.
I know you did try to point out Rick's approach was injurous to me a couple of times.
Thanks for the concern you'd felt as you saw what was happening in my 1st D/s relationship.
I appreciate the notion you were concerned.
Sincerely,
suzanne

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 6:12:58 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I've noticed the trend too Erin.  I've heard several submissives expressing a fear of "losing themselves".  I've pondered why that is, I think its more than just a "fad".  There's is a reason for the trend I'm sure, but I haven't yet sorted it out (though I have a few theories).

Regardless, its one of the reasons I find myself moving away from the terms "submissive" and "slave" altogether when describing the type of companion I seek.  I'm finding that increasingly both those words carry a lot of preconceived ideas with them that are not useful to me and that also I am spending more time explaining things than I have in the past.  It has reached a point that I find myself better off using an alternative term and explaining what that signifies, than most of the labels currently in use.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 6:14:44 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Over all even though the relationship tore me up worse than any relationship I had in my life the insight, knowledge, & experience I had will keep me from regretting it.


It is this positive thinking that will allow you to take positive action to better your life.  I am hopeful for you. 

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/15/2006 6:20:01 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 6:15:18 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		You shouldn't loss yourself in any relationship. The result of a relationship should be both sides finding themselves.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 7:01:21 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

Over all even though the relationship tore me up worse than any relationship I had in my life the insight, knowledge, & experience I had will keep me from regretting it.


It is this positive thinking that will allow you to take positive action to better your life.  I am hopeful for you. 

Hello Sir,
Thank you very much for expressing confidence in me.
I appreciate it much as I respect you immensely.
I also thank you for being there for me in my hour of need & the conversations we had in private at the point the really bad stuff went down.
You are definitely one of my heroes and helped me more than I could ever express.
Sincerely,
suzanne

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 7:12:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've learned you can hold yourself and others as highest priority and pleasure simultaneously.

People forget that we start this to become true to ourselves- relationships that force you to lose yourself rather than become MORE of yourself don't serve anyone in the end.


Amen

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 7:28:34 AM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've learned you can hold yourself and others as highest priority and pleasure simultaneously.

People forget that we start this to become true to ourselves- relationships that force you to lose yourself rather than become MORE of yourself don't serve anyone in the end.


Amen 


Yup, I couldn't agree more.  Even for those who enjoy 'objectificaton'...that 'object' can have value and be treated well.  I see the best relationships as being win/win.
 
MsB

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 40
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