Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: You don't have to lose you to be his


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: You don't have to lose you to be his Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 7:35:57 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		Erin, i am not sure it is a new trend, i have seen the holier then thou thing in this community from my first introduction to the lifestyle.
 
and i always see it as an indicator that the person is very new to the community. i have never met any one who has any longevity or presence in D-life that has a holier then thou attitude....and the newbies that do have this attitude usually get a slap up side the head and figure it out, or slink off into very unhealthy private relationships and then the next time i see them is when they post a big Ole train wreck story and tell us how this is all bullshit.
 
but even then i have patience and compassion for them, because that was me too, many years ago, when the world seemed so simple, so black and white, and i remember how painful everything was when i realized nothing worth having is ever that easy...and that the most well meaning and intelligent good hearted folks still put them selves in a situation to be abused or to abuse their partners.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 7:38:07 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have seen phrases in regards to those who do not wish to be such "uber" slaves like "hear me roar submissives" "players" "aren't submissive and will never be slaves". I have heard phrases to back up their stance like "such is the life of a slave", "that's what slavery is","it's just what you have to do/accept if you want to be a slave" and "if you want to be a slave you must/can't_____". 


But wasn't it you who made a comment a few months ago about pretend slaves who see their pretend Masters on weekends only?  Maybe I'm not remembering correctly...  But isn't that the same as "If you want to be a slave you must/can't_____?"  I'm just trying to find consistency here because such paradocxal statements are confusing.

I personally haven't seen anyone profess uberdome.  I have seen someone (the one you are quoting from) express her strong opinions on slavery in a way that bothers others because it is not a commonly expressed opinion.    I have also seen that person make posts from the heart about her personal history, in which she says life has gradually improved to a place of goodness since belonging to her Master. 

I am neither defending nor opposing her statements, but I have made my own comments lately about how quickly we (collectively) are judged about the health (or lack of) of our relationships, by people who have not seen the big picture.  I myself have some pretty strong opinions about slavery, but I do not express them.  If I do, OPs like this occur, stating I'm trying to be an uber slave.

While I truly understand the concern of losing oneself in a relationship (I have been there, and not as a slave), and I commend those who have such concern, I also urge people to not be so quick to judge a coin by just one side. Some day you (collectively) might express something in a post and the next thing you know, you have everyone coming down on you with their assumptions - about your perceived arrogance, your perceived abuse, your perceived unhappiness.  I say this because I've been there myself, and instead of my email filling up with those who were kind and concerned asking "Hey are you ok?" I got posts and emails alike insulting my Master and gleefully warning me about how hurt I'm about to get.  Gee thanks.

That is why I cringe at OPs like this. I truly agree no one should lose themselves.  But is it up to the rest of us to decide when that occurs for someone?  When do we cross the line?   We hear so much about clubs and play parties where if a "bottom" is screaming her head off and looking like she's being beaten to death, no one should interfere because maybe that's just a great place for her.  How is this any different?  Not trying to challenge, just thinking out loud...

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:00:26 AM   
spankingglo


Posts: 7
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		greetings all :)
i have often found so much of value on the cm forum...lots to think about, be inspired by and question.  I don't think the OP is necessarily cringe-worthy. Merely another take on the question of submission and slavery.  As someone very new to this lifestyle and even newer to the feeling of slavery I have often found myself holding my own feelings/self up to the examples given to me on cm.  I often question myself and the dynamic i share with him.  If i'll always have my own mind, be responsible for my own thoughts/actions/ethics...if ii hold his reponsibilities to me to be equal to my own to him then am i really a "slave". 

Point being that while submission and slavery seem to have as many levels and "styles" as the people involved it is very reassuring to hear another point of view that may more readily apply to people like myself...(self-styled smart asses, independant thinkers ..who absolutely worship their masters :) while still always choosing to do so)

...sorry for the ramble this (like everything in D/s) is a very new way of communicating for me...

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:11:06 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have seen phrases in regards to those who do not wish to be such "uber" slaves like "hear me roar submissives" "players" "aren't submissive and will never be slaves". I have heard phrases to back up their stance like "such is the life of a slave", "that's what slavery is","it's just what you have to do/accept if you want to be a slave" and "if you want to be a slave you must/can't_____". 


But wasn't it you who made a comment a few months ago about pretend slaves who see their pretend Masters on weekends only?  Maybe I'm not remembering correctly...  But isn't that the same as "If you want to be a slave you must/can't_____?"  I'm just trying to find consistency here because such paradocxal statements are confusing.


owned, I don't believe that is what I said and as you will see in the following quote from the post I think you are most likely referring to...I was speaking about what is right for myself when trying to label myself. I was not speaking about others. If you would like I could link to that post so that you can see the entire context in which it was said.
quote:


I will use myself as an example. I identify as a submissive. I do so because FOR ME the bottom line criteria that MUST be met in order to identify as slave is ownership. One can not be a slave unless they are owned. There are certainly many other criteria, but that is the most basic. Currently I am alone, therefore I CANNOT identify as being a slave. Ownership....and when I say that I mean ownership that is all encompassing, live in, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.....not on the internet.....not part time on the weekends or once a month.....not an in training with a Master you don't live with situation.   


quote:

  I personally haven't seen anyone profess uberdome.  I have seen someone (the one you are quoting from) express her strong opinions on slavery in a way that bothers others because it is not a commonly expressed opinion.    I have also seen that person make posts from the heart about her personal history, in which she says life has gradually improved to a place of goodness since belonging to her Master. 

I was not attempting to quote any one person specifically. If that is what I have ended up doing then they have my apologies. I went off memory and didn't look up specific posts to see the exact wording or who specifically said what. This post is not about the "right or wrong" of what anyone does within the confines of their own relationship or the "rightness or wrongness" of their own personal view. 

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:44:37 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...But don't take a holier than thou stance and even imply from up there on your pedestal that just because others aren't doing it the same way that they are not as deserving of you to have that slave title that you so proudly wave. It's not a competition and the title isn't a merit badge.



unfortunately, some take it that way, even when it isn't INTENDED.  even after your sig line says something like "the words printed here are concepts, you must go through the experiences"
 
this slave is proud to be Masters, but doesn't intend to belittle others by sharing that pride or her experiences, thoughts or opinions in this forum on topics presented and yes, there have been those who took it that way, called this slave's statements silly or ridiculous or without merit when she was merely expressing her opinion and relating her experiences...not espousing any one-true-holy-way.
 
people also seem to forget that folks here are expressing OPINIONS, sometimes they relate how personal experiences, that are unique to them shaped those opinions.  it is "their way", not "the one true way", even if they call it the "only way" it's still "only(their)way".
 
for more thoughts on "losing your self", here's the link to the discussion in the "Ask a submissive/slave" forum:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_528991/mpage_1/key_losing/tm.htm#529743

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:58:05 AM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsBearlee

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I've learned you can hold yourself and others as highest priority and pleasure simultaneously.

People forget that we start this to become true to ourselves- relationships that force you to lose yourself rather than become MORE of yourself don't serve anyone in the end.


Amen 


Yup, I couldn't agree more.  Even for those who enjoy 'objectificaton'...that 'object' can have value and be treated well.  I see the best relationships as being win/win.
 
MsB


agreed.

(in reply to MsBearlee)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 10:16:51 AM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		It was my slave's individuality and unique personality that attracted me to her, to begin with.  She's a real person, with real needs and wants and ideas of her own and, as her Master, I care about that and that is part of the package that I own.  If she were to try to "lose" her identity, in order to try to achieve some sort of "perfect slave" identity, she would not be serving my needs, which is to own her, not some made-up version of her idea of a slave or something like that.  I have no use for a slave, even if there were one, that is trying to be a "blank slate" for me to write on.  My needs are best met by owning a real woman and using the attributes she already posseses.  It's a lot less work for me (and more fun). 

David

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 10:27:25 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Maybe a question that needs to be answered is "What is identity?" ..people identify with so many things, they think they are their jobs, status, orientation, cars, a role they have to someone..so many different things people identify with depending on their circumstance in life...yet whose to say.. "I am this, I am that"...when reallly all most people are doing is submitting to a false identity anyways...so perhaps there is nothing of any real value to lose anyways....maybe someone who loses their percieved sense of self is the only one who really gets the opportunity to come home to them self. *grin*

< Message edited by slavejali -- 12/15/2006 10:29:56 AM >

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to NControlofU)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 10:46:28 AM   
DanceDreaming


Posts: 28
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

It is MOST important to never lose one's self. Period. The End.


To you. Some might, in fact, be looking for that. Actually there is a very large and widespread, quite respected religion based on doing -exactly- that.

If you do not wish to totally lose yourself, good, fine. I think that -most- intelligent and responsible Dom/mes would actually prefer you didn't. But, like I said, some people are most definitely looking for that, both as, and from a, sub/slave. Not right, not wrong, just life and the pursuit of contentedness.

(in reply to sophia37)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 1:12:44 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I'm definately not aware of a *trend* of this nature..........if it's been a *catch-on* thing, it certainly began years ago.

The uber-slave thing is incredibly * not today*.....except in quiet moments on forums.

If people wish or choose to have relationships of the type where their ONLY *expressed* gratification is the pleasure of another, and they have no sense of self......then * more power to their elbow*. Good for them.

It doesn't matter a jot if I *live* a valid way or not...no-one has to live the way I do, apart from me, so what does it matter?

*Needing* to be owned and *needing* to be submissive is different to * choosing* it.

agirl










(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 2:25:14 PM   
darksdesire


Posts: 326
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		I'm not sure if I can express this very well, but my sense of self and identity has never been stronger than it is now.  D/s, at least for me,  is such a paradox in that, by giving up myself, I found myself.  It is the very act of being true to my deepest nature, even when that means sacrificing and submitting, that I've discovered who I am...in all ways.  I probably feel more solid, more sure now than I have in those vanilla relationships in which I was trying to be something I wasn't, when I was trying to conform to a more mainstream vision of relationships that just didn't fit.  There can be utter joy in submission, in sacrifice, in doing things even when I don't feel like doing them. 

Anyway, I think that in a zen sort of way, one can find themselves by losing themselves. 

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 4:48:25 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have seen phrases in regards to those who do not wish to be such "uber" slaves like "hear me roar submissives" "players" "aren't submissive and will never be slaves". I have heard phrases to back up their stance like "such is the life of a slave", "that's what slavery is","it's just what you have to do/accept if you want to be a slave" and "if you want to be a slave you must/can't_____". 


But wasn't it you who made a comment a few months ago about pretend slaves who see their pretend Masters on weekends only?  Maybe I'm not remembering correctly...  But isn't that the same as "If you want to be a slave you must/can't_____?"  I'm just trying to find consistency here because such paradocxal statements are confusing.

I personally haven't seen anyone profess uberdome.  I have seen someone (the one you are quoting from) express her strong opinions on slavery in a way that bothers others because it is not a commonly expressed opinion.    I have also seen that person make posts from the heart about her personal history, in which she says life has gradually improved to a place of goodness since belonging to her Master. 

I am neither defending nor opposing her statements, but I have made my own comments lately about how quickly we (collectively) are judged about the health (or lack of) of our relationships, by people who have not seen the big picture.  I myself have some pretty strong opinions about slavery, but I do not express them.  If I do, OPs like this occur, stating I'm trying to be an uber slave.

While I truly understand the concern of losing oneself in a relationship (I have been there, and not as a slave), and I commend those who have such concern, I also urge people to not be so quick to judge a coin by just one side. Some day you (collectively) might express something in a post and the next thing you know, you have everyone coming down on you with their assumptions - about your perceived arrogance, your perceived abuse, your perceived unhappiness.  I say this because I've been there myself, and instead of my email filling up with those who were kind and concerned asking "Hey are you ok?" I got posts and emails alike insulting my Master and gleefully warning me about how hurt I'm about to get.  Gee thanks.

That is why I cringe at OPs like this. I truly agree no one should lose themselves.  But is it up to the rest of us to decide when that occurs for someone?  When do we cross the line?   We hear so much about clubs and play parties where if a "bottom" is screaming her head off and looking like she's being beaten to death, no one should interfere because maybe that's just a great place for her.  How is this any different?  Not trying to challenge, just thinking out loud...



owned,
 
i know exactly what you are saying.  Now this is not directed at anyone in particular (as the OP states) but i think some people just don't get it.  Know what i mean? 
 
DG

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 4:52:08 PM   
Serenityy


Posts: 97
Status: offline 		People have been "losing" themselves in relationships long before BDSM, M/s, or D/s were ever recognized by the mainstream. The only difference now is that we have another 'name' to blame it on.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 6:59:50 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Erin, thank you for replying.  Actually the quote I was thinking of was this one:

quote:


"Jezabel" or "Slutty Sue" can come walking into any munch or event and proclaim themself "slave", but the moment that they tell of how they "serve" their "Master" on their once monthly real time meeting....MOST people in the group, including myself, have an understanding that what is being professed is NOT slavery. So all of the declarations after that point fall upon deaf ears....very simple.

Now I know that is just going to piss a whole bunch of people off....but that is simply how it IS. As I have said many times here before....if you want to be eccentric and tell everyone your dog is actually a cat...so be it. But when you don that collar and leash and take a stroll through town....most people are going to understand that you are walking a dog. And if you want to insist that your dog is a cat....MOST people are just going to think your elevator doesn't quite reach the top.


So in actuality, you do believe if you want to be a slave, you must - - see your Master more than just once a month?  Unless your views have changed since then, which they very well may have.  But in this above quoted post, you are stating this as absolute for everyone, which is why I questioned it.  I remember it striking me so odd at the time, but I chose not to respond to it then.  But because your OP here seems so much the opposite of this post, I immediately thought of this one and wanted to ask about it.  No, you did not say "pretend" but your use of quotes around the words "Master" and "slave" implied that, to me anyway.

As for not attempting to quote anyone personally, I respect that.  Coincidentally, all of your quotes was something one particular slave said on two different threads in the last couple of days, word for word, I believe.  Perhaps those words left a mark on you without realizing they were all from the same person.  That does happen to me from time to time.

Regardless, I appreciate your reply.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:23:56 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		No owned, my views have not changed even a little. I have my own criteria as to what constitutes slavery in my mind and I have never tried to make it a secret on these boards. As was stated in the first post that I quoted that I thought you were referring to, I believe that the bottom line criteria is ownership. I further went on to define what ownership means to me and that is a 24/7 arrangement. So when someone talks of once a month service, no, that does not fit into my personal definition of what slavery is to me. But just because I have that view does not mean that I tell others that I am better than they are. It does not mean that I tell them that they can't call themselves whatever they choose or do whatever they wish to do and call it whatever they like. It simply means that I may not recognize it the same way they do. That's the point. Not everyone is going to recognize your particular way in the same light you do...but that should not stop anyone from doing what fulfills them. Just because I or you or someone else thinks in order to get from point A to point B you have to take path #3, that doesn't mean you have to take path #3....you can take whatever path you like or even make your own new road. You don't have to accept my way and I don't have to accept yours.....because there are LOTS of ways to choose from.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:36:36 PM   
darksdesire


Posts: 326
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

No owned, my views have not changed even a little. I have my own criteria as to what constitutes slavery in my mind and I have never tried to make it a secret on these boards. As was stated in the first post that I quoted that I thought you were referring to, I believe that the bottom line criteria is ownership. I further went on to define what ownership means to me and that is a 24/7 arrangement. So when someone talks of once a month service, no, that does not fit into my personal definition of what slavery is to me. But just because I have that view does not mean that I tell others that I am better than they are. It does not mean that I tell them that they can't call themselves whatever they choose or do whatever they wish to do and call it whatever they like. It simply means that I may not recognize it the same way they do. That's the point. Not everyone is going to recognize your particular way in the same light you do...but that should not stop anyone from doing what fulfills them. Just because I or you or someone else thinks in order to get from point A to point B you have to take path #3, that doesn't mean you have to take path #3....you can take whatever path you like or even make your own new road. You don't have to accept my way and I don't have to accept yours.....because there are LOTS of ways to choose from.





I'm not following this logic.  Do you honestly think it is not possible to serve long distance?  When a slave is parted from her Master, is she no longer a slave to him?  If he goes on a business trip for a week , she is not his slave during their separation?  If a slave does not live with her Master, she can't be 24/7? 

I did the whole LDR for a while, getting together once a month for several days at a time, and I was most certainly slave 24/7.  I answered to him at all times regardless of whether we were in the same room or several states apart.  There are lots of ways to ensure that this connection is maintained long distance.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:37:48 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for your reply. 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 9:46:18 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire
There are lots of ways to ensure that this connection is maintained long distance.

As someone mentioned to me recently, some are only able to serve and obey if their Master is physically present.  Maybe mental, emotional and spiritual are not part of service and slavery for them, and that's cool if that's their thing. In my situation, I was ordered to stay apart, so I could take care of my dying father, and I travel to see my Master as often as I can.  Sometimes it's just to bring him something he wants and make the 2 hour drive each way to do so.  But there are also those who go about their lives living as they desire and have "play sessions" periodically...yet call themselves slaves.  I would personally not view them as such.  So as Erin says, everyone has their opinion, and anyone can call themselves anything.  But in her opinion, just as in my opinion, just as in the person she inadvertantly quoted's opinion, they might not be.  That's the beauty of opinions - we all have them and that doesn't make anyone an uber-anything.

(in reply to darksdesire)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 10:03:15 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire
I'm not following this logic.  Do you honestly think it is not possible to serve long distance?  When a slave is parted from her Master, is she no longer a slave to him?  If he goes on a business trip for a week , she is not his slave during their separation?  If a slave does not live with her Master, she can't be 24/7? 


I have no desire for this thread to turn into a "what's the difference between a sub and slave" thread. I will answer you in this way. After spending 25 years of my life as a live in slave I tried to have a LDR in which we only got to see each other for a few days every couple of weeks. I found that the experiences were so vastly different that I could not consider them to be definable in the same manner and that regardless of the effort put forth on both our parts, we could not come even remotely close to the experience I had come to know as slavery.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to darksdesire)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: You don't have to lose you to be his - 12/15/2006 11:08:48 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		darks & mists - Isn't this just a question of perception?  First off isn't a slave is a slave, whether she's with her owner or not?  In fact, isn't she a slave, even if she's not currently owned by someone?  The age old run around about the difference between a sub and slave ultimately rests in the individuals perception of what constitutes a slave (and slavery.)  Thus it's perfectly fine for one slave to be satisfied by sporadic service, while another craves 24/7, and everything in between.  It's just an old 'my kink vs your kink' debate.

My real question, though, is where does the need to advance one's form of kink higher than anyone else's?  Why must we be such elitists?  We all make decisions about what we like, want, enjoy, dislike, hate, tolerate; some work for us, some don't.  I don't see any running for the National Bondage, Domination, Sadism, Masochism Congress here - why all the campaigning?

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: You don't have to lose you to be his Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109