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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 9:58:40 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: justfunco

Also I want to add to my comment, having a messy house or dirty (as in messy/nasty) lifestyle I doubt has crap to do with BDSM or sexuality at all. Maybe it does to others but I don't think so.

You can call me a wife stealer and scene player all you want (and others have), but are you insulting my house???

*wink*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 9:59:10 AM

Destinysskeins

Posts: 267
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Greetings,

First, i would like to say that yes, for some it is all about the kink. Just as it's been said before about other topics, if it's not all about the kink for you then don't go for the Dom/mes for whom it is.

mistoferin, i don't think that you were trying to put down what others might desire or do but rather i think that the habits/behaviour of those that you referenced in your post are more than likely very large pet peeves of yours. *shrugs* Everybody has their own lil peeves and sometimes they might seem very peevish (thus the word!

) to others. Hell, i have a distinct dislike of people who fill half empty ice cube trays with water (because then half of the tray is frozen, the other half isn't and it makes it a pain in the ass when you try to take out the frozen ones!

)

Anywho, i happen to prefer a deeper link between this Lifestyle and myself. When i met my Master He was open to bedroom kink but had not experienced a true PE dynamic. That being said, i've found that He was quite compatible with this dynamic. He is particular about what things are done and how they are done though initially i found that He would try to suppress these feelings at times. i'm sure this arose from situations in the past where His requests/demands were not accepted well by vanilla women. Due to this i tried to be very reassuring and compliant in response to His demands. To illustrate my point i'll take a look at something that occurred rather early on in our relationship. We were having a cleaning day at His house and i was helping with His laundry. As i'm folding His shirts He stated to me that He prefers to have His shirts folded in such and such manner. Immediately following this statement He said, "Damn, I'm such a dick. you're helping me do this and I should be satisfied with that". To which i replied, "No, it's okay. If You prefer this to be done in this way then that's how i'll do it. It won't take me any longer to do it than the other way and i'll be happy that i'm doing it the way You prefer." As our relationship has grown, He's become much more comfortable stating His preferences and now extends them to my children in some ways as well. i'm very happy with this development as it gives me a reason to improve upon myself. Not only that but i've received numerous compliments on my children's behaviour (babysitters, strangers, etc.) since He's come into my life as well. It's not that i did not expect good behaviour from myself and my children previously but that another point of view with different standards merged with those of my own have produced a more versatile and better rounded set of expectations.

To conclude, i'd say that yes, if you are pursuing this Lifestyle as a all-encompassing dynamic then the Dominant should take up the reins of responsiblity and assist Their sub/slave in his/her growth. That being said, i feel that the sub/slave also holds a responsiblity to be receptive and proactive in this growth as well. (And yes, it does seem as if more and more people now-a-day prefer to shirk their respective responsiblities but "c'est la vie" - it is those people who will have to ultimately sweep up the detritus that they've made of their lives by doing so).

Well wishes!

(in reply to justfunco)

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:04:47 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
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quote:

i don't think that you were trying to put down what others might desire or do but rather i think that the habits/behaviour of those that you referenced in your post are more than likely very large pet peeves of yours

Thank you Destinysskeins! I am so glad to see that there are some people who don't get so caught up in picking apart the words that they can actually see the concept behind them. How refreshing!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:13:54 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Thank you Destinysskeins! I am so glad to see that there are some people who don't get so caught up in picking apart the words that they can actually see the concept behind them. How refreshing!

I guess your past doms didn't teach you the value in intellectual criticism and precision, how to debate issues without having your emotions decide whether a point is good or bad. Good thing you didn't rant about that.

(in reply to mistoferin)

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:14:10 AM

PaintedLady

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Joined: 2/19/2005
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quote:

Not to mention an abdication of personal responsibility on the part of the submissive that makes me cringe down to my very bones.

Thanks for saying that- I was feeling a little weird about that aspect of the post. I only had one 'master' in my life, really, and while he *did* guide some aspects of my personal growth, I'd like to think he was starting with a functional human being.

Kat

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:16:30 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Oh yeah! Ozzy and Harriet with a Whip. If forgot you have that image running around in your mind.

Actually, until you reminded me of it, I had forgotten that image completely. I think they call that projection. It was a really good line in that debate, though...obviously you remembered it. *ouch, I think I just hurt my arm patting myself on the back*

quote:

The way that I live would send Ozzy and Harriet screaming into the night, and get the show canceled. That doesn't make it kinky. Just makes it me.

Dude, you do realize that doing things that would send "Ozzy and Harriet screaming into the night" might not be considered normal, and therefore kinky, by the vast majority of those in the society in which we both live, right?

Saying that what you do is not "kinky" because it is "normal" to you is just simply bizzare. If that is true, then nothing anyone does with any regularity can be called kinky.

I like the word kinky. To me, it means "not straight." It doesn't mean naughty or taboo. There is "straight", which once was "sex for procreation", but which now means genital or oral sex between a man and a woman. There is "kinky" which is pretty much any other activity that is remotely sexual in nature.

quote:

Yeahhhhhhh...Taggard...I know that "L" word is tough to say, but it's a natural consequence of the deep trust and commitment without which the kind of relations that we are discussing on this thread don't work. If you're not keeping things at a pretty shallow and superficial level, it's gonna show up.

You have shown your inability to understand that M/s relationships do not need love. We all understand, you think that one can not own without being in love. We get it. You think that a deep and binding connection must be love based. We understand. We all just wish you would realize that because you have a limited view of the world, the world is not actually limited.

Taggard

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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:18:32 AM

happypervert

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Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
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quote:

The Dominant men in my life have taught me the importance of eloquence, of being a lady. . . . <snip a bit> I have been taught to keep a proper home,

The problem I see with your rant is that you are criticizing folks for being the way you yourself used to be until somebody taught you better. But if you had paired up with dominants who had your background (i.e didn't know any better), then guess what -- your behavior and lifestyle would be a lot closer to what you complain about now.

So it's nice that you acknowledge the advantages you've had to learn to be a lady and everything that goes along with it. One thing your dominants neglected to teach you, I think, is not to look down on folks who probably haven't had the same advantages and training that would allow them to live up to your now higher expectations.

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:25:48 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Thank you Destinysskeins! I am so glad to see that there are some people who don't get so caught up in picking apart the words that they can actually see the concept behind them. How refreshing!

I guess your past doms didn't teach you the value in intellectual criticism and precision, how to debate issues without having your emotions decide whether a point is good or bad. Good thing you didn't rant about that.

I was merely commenting on the fact that she grasped my motivations. OK...I will admit it, I am emotionally driven. Aren't you? Aren't all human beings? Would you take the time to debate an issue that meant absolutely nothing to you? I take criticism very well thank you, I am always open to others thoughts and opinions. Whether or not I choose to own another's opinion and apply it to me life is another thing entirely. I welcome other's views and I have tough skin. As far as precision...guess I just didn't realize there was going to be a test, or that I could be considered wrong to have an opinion of my own.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:27:36 AM

justfunco

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Agian, if I sound naive I'm sorry... I can understand that some people BDSM is a lifestyle beyond sexuality. But unless a Master has so much control over his slaves that they can't wipe their own ass without permission, I think that keeping house clean is still a seperate thing. You can only help guide people with personal growth so much... I would think of it more of an expansion of peoples lives, not the very basis of it.

Another thought that comes to mind is that in the past and still BDSM is not very socially accepted. It may simply be that statistically people who live like slobs are more prone to it because they're already not socially accepted. Nothing against them really, we don't keep a perfect house either, but I wouldn't say we're abusing/neglecting our children.

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:31:37 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I was merely commenting on the fact that she grasped my motivations. OK...I will admit it, I am emotionally driven. Aren't you?

Good lord NO. I am at times driven by my "intuitions" which one could CALL "feelings" but aren't at all the same as emotions.

How on earth could my Owner expect obedience if I'm driven by my EMOTIONS? I don't FEEL like obeying all the time, I don't DESIRE to do some of the things he wants, but I better do them! I don't know how anyone could hold to anything in their character if they let their emotions drive them. Emotions are crazy things, they aren't good or bad but they certainly should NOT be in the drivers seat when it comes to one's behavior. After all, isn't that what your original post is about? Teaching MANNERs, good graces, etc despite whether one is FEELING annoyed or lazy?

quote:

Would you take the time to debate an issue that meant absolutely nothing to you?

Meaning is hardly the same as feeling or emotionally connected.

quote:

guess I just didn't realize there was going to be a test, or that I could be considered wrong to have an opinion of my own.

It's not the opinion that's wrong, it's taking such a strong opinion and then not being consistent with it that seems to be the problem here.

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:40:41 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

I don't FEEL like obeying all the time, I don't DESIRE to do some of the things he wants, but I better do them!

Well isn't that exactly where submission comes into play? Just because one is obedient and complies does not discount the emotion.

I stand by my original post. It contained my feelings, thoughts, emotions and opinions. No where in it did I state that anyone had to change the way they choose to live out their lives or their relationships. I am sorry if others opinions differ, I didn't expect everyone to be of the same mindset, hence my apology at the very beginning of the post.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:45:49 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

More like neglecting their responsibilities. Neglecting the whole picture.

Exactly! There seems to be a trend toward irresponsibility today. The world of alternative lifestyles is not all inclusive of this. We see Masters and Dominants who don't want to put forth the effort, we see fathers who neglect their responsibilities to be a parent, we see mothers doing the same, we see employees who don't really want to work but they do want a paycheck. And the big wheel of life keeps turning....and it seems no one is noticing or stepping up to say "Hey, Wait just a minute!". It seems to be becoming all about "what makes me happy" with total disregard of the bigger picture. No man is an island.

I agree with you on this. And even though I do not fit in your optimal D/s model, I take my responsibilities very seriously in every facet of my personality, whether it be professional, academic or personal in my relationships with my friends, family and lovers/submissives. I also only get involved with people who have the same ethics and values.

However, and I know it seems that I'm hammering the same nail but I think it's important to focus on the real issues here, the reason why people are irresponsible and/or neglect aspects of their lives is not because they put too much emphasis on kink. It is for a myriad of other reasons that don’t even come close to whether or not they put kink first. That just seems to be a pattern that you notice, perhaps some sort of correlation, but definitely not cause/effect.

- LA

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:56:44 AM

Leonidas

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Hello Taggard,

quote:

You have shown your inability to understand that M/s relationships do not need love. We all understand, you think that one can not own without being in love. We get it. You think that a deep and binding connection must be love based. We understand. We all just wish you would realize that because you have a limited view of the world, the world is not actually limited.

Sorry, I must not have been too clear. M/s relationships don't require love, and that isn't what I said. I said that love is a consequence of them. My experience of M/s since about the time you were in Jr. High, with a number of slave girls, both mine and those of other men whose progression I watched from novice on, is that deep submission and love go hand and hand in women. You can't really separate them. If she's deeply submitted (enslaved), she's going to love her master helplessly. Not my rules, Taggard, just happens that way. You can keep power-play on a superficial, platonic level (if you're careful) but if you ever gain the woman's submission on a deeper level, you'd best be prepard that she will love you. She may tell you she doesn't if that is what you want to hear, but that's all she'll be doing.

I can't really comment on boys, because I've never kept them or been around many. Maybe the long-term owner of male slaves can comment on that.

By the way, who is we? Do you represent some group, or are you posting here as Taggard?

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 10:58:37 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
While "discipline" (what I call the forgotten D in BDSM) ...

It isn't missing. BDSM is a clever little overlapping acronym which gathers all of the sub-groupings
BD - bondage & discipline
..DS - domination & submission
....SM - sadism & masochism

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 (con't)
... certainly SHOULD be existent in every persons life, kinky or not, I think the extreme sort that we tend to practice in transferring authority could still be counted as kinky.

When I discipline in the workplace, it is not kinky.
When I practice discipline within a D/s relationship, it is extremely kinky.
But that is just me.

- LA

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:08:20 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
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quote:

the reason why people are irresponsible and/or neglect aspects of their lives is not because they put too much emphasis on kink. It is for a myriad of other reasons that don’t even come close to whether or not they put kink first. That just seems to be a pattern that you notice, perhaps some sort of correlation, but definitely not cause/effect.

Lady Angelika,
You are right. I don't think that it is the cause/effect. I believe it is a sign of the times and all aspects of our lives today are contributing factors. This is a different world we now live in and we all have responsibilities and time deadlines that are ever increasing. Stress levels have never been higher. As you said, a myriad of reasons. My observation was that the way that I was taught used to be much more common than it appears to be becoming today. Maybe it is just that people feel freer to talk about the kink aspect today. I really don't know. What I do know is that there used to be a different way and that way is dying off I am afraid. There were certainly some good things to be said for it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:10:10 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

i don't think that you were trying to put down what others might desire or do but rather i think that the habits/behaviour of those that you referenced in your post are more than likely very large pet peeves of yours

Thank you Destinysskeins! I am so glad to see that there are some people who don't get so caught up in picking apart the words that they can actually see the concept behind them. How refreshing!

If you are going to post words here, expect them to be picked apart. This is a discussion thread made especially for that purpose. It is only through discussion and deconstruction that we can form/change/grow our perceptions on things. If we weren't interested in personal growth, we wouldn't be discussing these issues with others.

Understand that when someone disagrees with your words, it is with your words and not a judgement of you (unless of course they have their heads so far up their asses that they cannot separate issues from people). I know it's hard to separate. I learned this through art. When someone criticises my work, it's my work they are criticising, not me.

That being said, there is a diplomatic and respectable way for people to pick apart ideas, something I believe I adhere to most usually. We all of moments of glorious idiocy ;)

- LA

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:17:42 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
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quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26
Shockingly, many of us have learned these things without ever having the benefit of a dominant, master, or any other fulltime BDSM relationship, simply because it's common sense and good human behavior to know all of these things. Frankly, I truly admire your past dominants, who took on such a challenging task as someone who *didn't* know these fundamentals of polite human behavior.

I agree with you songbird26. This has been my argument since my first post on this thread.

As for models of D/s, I don’t personally tutelage as inherent to Domination/submission. It is one of the models. The degree to which a D/s relationship is Master/slave, teacher/student, mentor/mentee or top/bottom has absolutely no bearing on how responsible the individuals involved in it are.

Let me take this opportunity to refer to the Deviant's Dictionary's description of D/s Dynamics which is one of the first things I officially read on “the lifestyle” and to which I refer to often.

A D/s relationship can be described as a relationship in which the exchange of power is a major dynamic. Unlike abusive relationships, however, D/s relationships are negotiated arrangements which meet the psychological, sexual, and social needs of all participants. The nature of each D/s relationship is unique, because the manner in which the power relationship is understood and practiced is a very personal matter. This can make such a relationship more difficult to understand, but it also allows those persons involved in a D/s relationship the flexibility to design a relationship that is tailored to fit their specific needs and desires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaintedLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: songbird26
Not to mention an abdication of personal responsibility on the part of the submissive that makes me cringe down to my very bones.

Thanks for saying that- I was feeling a little weird about that aspect of the post. I only had one 'master' in my life, really, and while he *did* guide some aspects of my personal growth, I'd like to think he was starting with a functional human being.

Kat

Exactly Kat.

And as songbird26 also posted, we will have positive influences that enable us to grow all through our lives. It is up to us to determine whether or not we want to take a step forward.

- LA

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:17:53 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
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quote:

If you are going to post words here, expect them to be picked apart.

I not only expect it, I welcome it. If I wanted no one to ever contradict or criticize I would simply keep my thoughts to myself. In that post I was simply expressing that I thought her to be quite astute for grasping the intent behind the word...that's all...nothing more.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:20:12 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

My experience of M/s since about the time you were in Jr. High, with a number of slave girls, both mine and those of other men whose progression I watched from novice on, is that deep submission and love go hand and hand in women. You can't really separate them.

Are you turned on by one animal consuming another animal? Have you ever met anyone who is? Do you deny that this can exist? Have a look
**edited to remove content not acceptable to CM boards, please keep discussions and links within the parameters of legal discussion**Mod3
Now, do you think it might be even remotely possible that people can work in other ways that you have not experienced?

quote:

If she's deeply submitted (enslaved), she's going to love her master helplessly. Not my rules, Taggard, just happens that way.

Do you really think you know how everyone everywhere works? Do you really think all people work exactly the same? What an unbelievably limited view of the world... You don't get out much, do you?

quote:

You can keep power-play on a superficial, platonic level (if you're careful) but if you ever gain the woman's submission on a deeper level, you'd best be prepard that she will love you.

Sure, that is one way it works. Yet, perhaps when someone knows how to manage a slave in a way that you don't know or understand (if you could even admit that could be possible, which I doubt), just perhaps, it might also work without love happening, yet still be meaningful, deep and satisfying for all concerned.

I am not asking you to think that I have that way figured out. I would simply love to see you confess to being human and admitting that it is possible that people can live in a way you have never experienced and don't really understand.

quote:

By the way, who is we? Do you represent some group, or are you posting here as Taggard?

Wouldn't you just love to know...*evil chuckle*

Taggard

< Message edited by ModeratorThree -- 2/25/2005 6:26:12 PM >

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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 11:23:28 AM

quietkitten

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* pokes her head in, carrying a white flag...

One of the biggest problems with typing out responses, is that it can be very difficult to convey all of the emotion and meaning of the words you are trying to express. Because of this, we sometimes can't be as clear as we'd like to be.

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