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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 1:06:39 PM   
Quivver


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Erin, although all the nay sayers have valid points for what they've chosen out of this lifestyle, I am sitting back here clapping in agreement with you. Maybe it's a gender thing combigned with the sub, maybe it's age, who knows. all i know is i for one am searching for just what you've discribed. it appears this is just another area where perception differs......
((@))((@)) hugs, keep up the good work!

_____________________________

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 1:18:08 PM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Once again I will reiterate. Nowhere in my thread did I reference BDSM and I am not of the persuasion that feels the terms Dominant/Master and submissive/slave are clear indications that one is a practitioner of BDSM, at least not in the sense that everyone seems to throw that term around in. When I began this journey, that phrase had not been yet invented. I also never said that anyone had to conform to anything. I was merely making observations.


Then if you're talking about "people in general" you should be posting in Off Topic. If you're posting about D/s, then you should say so when posting in the General BDSM Discussion forum.

quote:

Hmmm. I guess I was under the mistaken assumption that social graces are appreciated if not required in all aspects of a civilized society. Has that changed too?


No, that was my point. You seem to expect that people involved in whatever it is you're talking about in your rant, be it BDSM like the forum says or D/s like your post implies, should be specifically be social and crap like that because of their power exchange. So why hold those people to that expectation and not everyone else? Or is this a rant about "people" and not "kinky people"?

quote:

It was a typo, thank you for pointing it out. I never said I was perfect.


But you did say that a sign of a poor Master is an ill grammared submissive.

quote:

for those who feel that something is lacking or who wish for something a bit deeper


Because we all know that kink is shallow, and D/s is deep.

=======

As a concise answer to the OP, yes, for some it's all about the kink. For others, it's all about the power exchange. Your entire rant to -me- sounds like a complaint about the sheer number of people who enjoy one, and not the other. So what if there's a large number of people who dislike power exchange, it's not your job to be the arbiter of the number of power exchange relationships vs. kink relationships,

Should I start a rant about "Is it all about the power exchange?" now?

< Message edited by Moleculor -- 2/25/2005 1:23:58 PM >


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</sarcasm>

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 1:34:48 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor
As a concise answer to the OP, yes, for some it's all about the kink. For others, it's all about the power exchange.


I fear I may be repeating myself, but is power exchange really not kinky?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Moleculor)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 2:04:16 PM   
Moleculor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor
As a concise answer to the OP, yes, for some it's all about the kink. For others, it's all about the power exchange.


I fear I may be repeating myself, but is power exchange really not kinky?

Taggard


Sure, it's kinky. However, the implication is that it's also "better" than kink.

_____________________________

</sarcasm>

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 2:04:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Hi Angelika, << is how I spell my name

I was speaking specifically about women kept as slaves, and how the depth of their submission (in a commited, collared kind of relation) is, in my experience unbreakably linked with love. They rise and fall together, in my experience. The relationship that you are describing was one where you were certainly junior to the man, but you probably wouldn't say that you were submitted to him in any meaningful way. I was only speaking of my experience of women who chose to submit themselves as slaves. I don't think it would be fair to describe them all as needy, emotionally broken women, and if they were when they started, they got over it for the most part.

I, as a dominant man, don't feel the same emotions that a female slave feels. I can find them beautiful, and complimentary to me, but It's not something that I feel directly.


I was simply trying to draw a parallel. I know you don't understand my point of view on this. And what I'm telling you, and what Taggard is telling you (I think) is that deep bonds do not always have to be love.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I'm wondering if, maybe, as a woman who identifies as dominant, those emotions are similarly foreign to you, given that you have never been submitted to a man in the way that I'm describing.


Ah now you are making an assumption. ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 2:06:38 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Erin, although all the nay sayers have valid points for what they've chosen out of this lifestyle, I am sitting back here clapping in agreement with you. Maybe it's a gender thing combigned with the sub, maybe it's age, who knows. all i know is i for one am searching for just what you've discribed. it appears this is just another area where perception differs......
((@))((@)) hugs, keep up the good work!


Not nay sayers. People with a democratic, open-minded view willing to accept difference. BIG difference.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 2:34:44 PM   
Leonidas


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Hello AngeliKa,

I posted this as an open question for slaves directly. Lets see how the responses go. Should be interesting.

Leonidas

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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 3:09:21 PM   
mistoferin


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Molecular,
If you look carefully right in the middle of BDSM you will notice the letters D/s. I think that makes where I posted completely appropriate. The post was and still is my opinion. It was about the concept of a different time and a different way vs. the way in which everyone seems to want to morph it to fit in with what they want it to be today. Do I personally think it was a better way, you betcha I do. Do you have to think the same way, of course not.

I did not ask for it to be your way or anyone else's for that matter. I am happy that it was the way I was taught. I prefer it to the Burger King style of BDSM that is being frequently practiced today. But that's just me, you do as you wish and I promise you that I won't tell you that it is wrong for you and your life. Heck, for that matter, if you desire to go play in traffic, far be it from me to tell you that might be wrong there either. You are an adult and can make all of your own choices. Have at it. Should you decide to start your own thread, well you have just as much right as I do. I wish you well.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Moleculor)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 3:36:18 PM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Molecular,
If you look carefully right in the middle of BDSM you will notice the letters D/s. I think that makes where I posted completely appropriate.


If you'll look carefully at the acronym as a whole, you'll notice that it's not exclusively D/s. It's all-inclusive of things, be they "vanilla kink", or highly ritualized M/s type lifestyles.

If you wish to complain about D/s relationships not being about D/s, fine, do that, but don't go complaining about the people who don't WANT a D/s relationship not being in a D/s relationship.


_____________________________

</sarcasm>

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 3:42:25 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

Isn’t one of the primary responsibilities of a Dominant/Master to guide his submissive/slave through her personal growth so that she can become the best she can be…in all aspects. Or has it just come to be about the kink?


Midear Erin-

I was about to answer this, but I had to stop to vacuum the living room- I've been putting it off a few days, now. Thanks for the nudge<g>.

I was about two steps away from being a feral child growing up- on parent abidlcated any responisibily when I was about six, and the other was just inept. I was a latchkey kid before there was such a term. I can also say that I was metrosexual before that was term, too.

In between the loud, rude, dirty and unkempt child, and the (reasonalbly) well dressed, groomed, polite, urbane person I hope I pass my self off as today, there were a lot of good examples- a few teachers, and my unwavering will to make a better thing of myself than anyone else had bothered to. I did OK, I think.

and while I am certainly willing to help someone along, and have been known to try to knock off a rough edge here and there, I have a horror of playing some sort of leather clad Pygmailion to some chained Galetia (admittedly, becuase I have fallen for that scenerio before a major factor to my horror of it).

Frankly- what I want in a partner is someone so very much my equal that my being on top is a matter of our personal preferances. When it comes to the 'submissive- some assembly required' shelf- I just keep on moving. Been there, done that, wrote the book, starred in the movie, and am using the teeshirt for a scut rag. I kept my Pygmaillion complex right were my KSA syndrome is- down the obliette with my innerchild.

This notion that a dominant should create or improve a submissive is a risky trap...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

PS- none of this is meant to take anything away from you- I just get a little weary of the notion that I should have to raise up someone, or for that matter, that I actually can.


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 3:54:43 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

In between the loud, rude, dirty and unkempt child, and the (reasonalbly) well dressed, groomed, polite, urbane person I hope I pass my self off as today, there were a lot of good examples- a few teachers, and my unwavering will to make a better thing of myself than anyone else had bothered to. I did OK, I think.


Well my goodness I would certainly say you did quite well (and so would not just a few others here I think ).
Thank you Lawrence for your response and I do very much value your opinion, even if it is not concurrent with mine. I guess that I would say that I am on the same level now as my Sir( I don't think He would disagree but He would have to speak to that opinion Himself)...but I had to start somewhere and I feel fortunate to have had the experiences that I did. Although, He still has His own ways that He would like me to be so a few changes here and there to accomodate His personal needs.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 4:11:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I did not ask for it to be your way or anyone else's for that matter. I am happy that it was the way I was taught. I prefer it to the Burger King style of BDSM that is being frequently practiced today.


quote:

Thank you Lawrence for your response and I do very much value your opinion, even if it is not concurrent with mine.


I kind of like the way you worded it the second time better ;)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/25/2005 4:12:14 PM >


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 4:26:31 PM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

I kind of like the way you worded it the second time better


I prefer the second way myself but the manner in which the ball is hit depends upon the serve.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 4:34:47 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

I kind of like the way you worded it the second time better


I prefer the second way myself but the manner in which the ball is hit depends upon the serve.


We grow when we learn to rise above and not stoop to the level of the serve ;)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 5:55:13 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

There are times today that I feel as though I am from the Dark Ages in this lifestyle.


Nah, if you were *really* from the Dark Ages, you'd remember when the term "lifestyle" was only used by those who hadn't a clue about wiitwd, and most certainly weren't what anyone these days would call "lifestyle". So, you're probably not out in the Dark Ages.

quote:


Maybe I am just getting old but in many ways I see changes happening here that I don’t necessarily think are for the good. Is it just me…am I the only one who sees it this way?


That's pretty much what every generation says about the next, I think, regardless of whether they're referencing wiitwd or cycling or radiography or whatever. "Back in MY day...." is a common refrain in most areas.

quote:


Isn’t one of the primary responsibilities of a Dominant/Master to guide his submissive/slave through her personal growth so that she can become the best she can be…in all aspects. Or has it just come to be about the kink?


No, I don't think so. I think the primary responsibility of a dominant/master is to dominate in whatever way those involved in the relationship deem appropriate. If, for example, I decide to take piano lessons (that's personal growth, right?), and my dominant partner knows diddly squat about music in general and the piano in particular, then I don't think it's his/her responsibility at all to guide me in that area. If I decide to embark on a diet/exercise program (also personal growth, I think), then I'm going to consult a nutritionist and a personal trainer. It's not my dominant partner's responsibility to know about these things nor to guide me through them. That's why we employ experts.

It *might* be his/her responsibility to guide me through learning things that are important to him/her and that we've agreed are areas that will be worked on, but even then it may not always be so. Perhaps it's important to him/her that I advance in my career and to that end we decide I should continue my education. I think that it becomes *my* responsibility to do the work to obtain further qualifications, and to make the commitment to study and learn, without him/her having to look over my shoulder or ask daily if I've done my homework.

quote:


I hear so many today claim they are submissive/slave, owned and guided by a loving Master/Dominant. They have the talk down pat. Then you get to know them a bit and you visit their home or see them away from the monthly play party. You walk in, their house is a wreck, they look like they dressed from a rag bag, their children are unkept, they are serving some sort of unrecognizable food for dinner, they are sometimes mouthy or at best ill grammared, sometimes even giving orders to their Dominants or arguing with them.


Perhaps these things that seem to be so important to you aren't important to the people in question? Perhaps they have other things that are much higher up the priority list than an immaculate house, fabulous clothes, perfect punctuation, etc. Perhaps they've *both* decided that it's in their best interests for the two of them to continue to work full time and both go to school as well, leaving little time for making sure the piano is always completely dust free. Perhaps one of them has a health issue that takes up significant time/energy and is more important to them than making sure the linen clothing is perfectly starched and ironed. There are lots of paradigms, and lots of possible reasons that people might have priorities that are different from yours.

quote:


There sits Master/Dominant in his chair, seemingly oblivious to all that is going on around him. He doesn’t even seem to notice the sheer chaos of the situation. I have to wonder…..what exactly has he been teaching? Has he been teaching at all? Does he not think he has a responsibility outside of the bedroom?


Perhaps, as I suggested above, he's quite aware of the chaos and doesn't hold it to be as important as other things. Perhaps there are things going on beneath the surface that you're not aware of. Perhaps he's *comfortable* in the chaos and chooses to direct his energies in other directions that have a higher priority for he and his partner. That doesn't mean that he's focused on the bedroom, only that he's focused on things that aren't readily apparent to you. That's ok, since you're not part of the relationship and he has no responsibility to make sure you're ok with how they work their relationship.

quote:


I was brought up a tough, street fighting kid on the streets of Brooklyn, NY. I spent most of my teen years and many of my adult years in 1%er motorcycle clubhouses, rubbing elbows with guys who make Freddy Krueger look like the Easter Bunny. I can hold my own in any given situation…from a street fight, to a clubhouse, to a PTA meeting or a black tie affair. Why? Because I have been fortunate enough to have had Dominants in my life who have also guided me in all of the finer aspects.

The Dominant men in my life have taught me the importance of eloquence, of being a lady. It’s not always been about the finer art of blow jobs or how much one can take while bound to a cross. It has been charm school…..Dominant style. I have been taught to keep a proper home, how to entertain guests, what should or should not come out of my mouth in a public setting. I have been taught to look my best, to not be ashamed of my sexiness, but to embrace it with a degree of modesty also. I have been taught that it is ok to state my opinions, but that it is not ok to be argumentative for the sake of argument. I have been taught to be respectful.


I'm pretty competent in thos areas too, but it's not thanks to any dominant partners in my life. I was raised to value those types of things, and my parents made sure that I learned them, because it was important to them. Beyond that, those things are important *to me*, so I've made sure to hone my skills in those areas. I didn't need a dominant partner to do that, nor would I expect that to be his/her responsibility if I had one.

quote:


I was also taught personal responsibility and accountability. What I say or write may influence another and it is my responsibility to choose my words with great thought. Once they’re out there…well, they’re out there. There are no do-overs. I am accountable for my actions and there are consequences that are mine alone to bear. I was taught the importance of honesty. Truth is far superior to a lie, even when it hurts. I was taught the importance of having personal integrity. To give thought to the code of personal morals and values which I choose to incorporate in my life, and then live by them.


These are things that I learned well before I had *any* partners, dominant or not. Personal responsibility is something that comes from within me, not something that I needed a dominant partner to teach me. Honesty and integrity have always been a part of who I am, even when I was going through the "growing pains" of being a teenager. As you say, those are personal morals and values, and for me at least, they come from within. I certainly don't get them from my partners.

For my part, I think that most people, regardless of role, would value those things in a partner and prefer someone who already had a good grip on them. Sure, the "blank slate" or "clay to be molded" paradigm works for some people, but personally I prefer those in my life to have already made some significant effort in that regard.

I'm glad you've had some great relationships in the past, but it seems that your personal filters are giving you a very narrow view of how things *should* be. It's great that you've found how things should be for you, and what works well for you and your relationships. Other people have different priorities and different paradigms that are just as valid as yours. They take nothing away from how you do things.

Really, it's not a vertical hierarchy, with one way being better/above/more right than another. Life is a horizontal continnuum and we all find our place on it where we best fit at that time. It's not better/worse; it's just different.


_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 6:45:24 PM   
mistoferin


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Thank you SherriA,
I follow your posts and have come to respect and value your opinion. I do appreciate your perspective and your comments. However, I still feel that a submissive/slave is a direct reflection of their Dominant/Master. When I meet a submissive who is consistently exhibiting poor behavior, poor hygiene, poor manners, etc., what I find that saying to me is that someone is not doing their job.
I understand wanting to be with a partner who has made significant effort in all of the areas that I touched on, however I began this journey with my first Dominant at the tender age of 15, and no I don't think that I had it all down pat at that age. Heck, I still don't. Learning for me will I hope, be a lifelong process. But that's just me and my opinions.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:09:14 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
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quote:

is that deep submission and love go hand and hand in women. You can't really separate them. If she's deeply submitted (enslaved), she's going to love her master helplessly


I agree with this statement and think that it is applicable to many deeply submissive women. I do make a distinction between the submissive, the slave, and the bottom fully recognizing that there are those who are involved in suxual/sensation play and sceneing only. In completely submitting myself to a dominant partner, a significant amount of trust which inspires greater feeling of security which in turn deepen the submission and, yes, one of the consequences of this is love.

This fact. that may apply only to me and to the women in my submissive group which is how my opinion is formed, is applicable to the original post. When approached via email or otherwise, if I, as is frequently the case, have the impression in the initial or early contact that the dominant is looking for a play partner, I am not interested. This was a hard-learned lesson for me; I cannot play with being submissive. I'll not deny that sex games with spankings are fun - they are, but I know that the emotional cost is too high. When my idea budding relationship meets the reality of hey babe that was fun thanks, I have a problem.

For some people, it is all about the kink. For others, like myself, it is not.

newflowers


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:18:22 PM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Thank you SherriA,
I follow your posts and have come to respect and value your opinion. I do appreciate your perspective and your comments. However, I still feel that a submissive/slave is a direct reflection of their Dominant/Master.


...when said people are in a D/s relationship that encompases that sort of thing.

Sheesh, how many times must it be said before you actually comprehend it?


_____________________________

</sarcasm>

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:20:16 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
However, I still feel that a submissive/slave is a direct reflection of their Dominant/Master.


So, by that way of thinking, back when you were a 15 year old "street rat" kid without the rough edges smoothed out, then your dominant partner wasn't doing a very good job? If, as you say, it took lots of time and effort to accomplish these things, then you were reflecting poorly on your earlier dominant partners. What a shame, considering all you've said that they did for you.

Sometimes it comes down to perspective.

quote:


When I meet a submissive who is consistently exhibiting poor behavior, poor hygiene, poor manners, etc., what I find that saying to me is that someone is not doing their job.


Fair enough. What you don't seem to be taking into account, though, is that what you consider to be poor behaviour, poor manners, etc may not be seen the same way by the people in question. In my blended family, for example, we have quite the connundrum at family dinners. You see, I was raised to believe that it's poor manners to eat everything set in front of you at a meal. It suggests that the host/hostess didn't offer you enough to eat and you've not been satisfied. My step-mother's family, however, was raised to believe that not eating everything on your plate was bad manners, because it suggests that you didn't enjoy the food you were offered. So, who was right? Which side of the table had bad manners?

I was also raised to question everything, and to continue to do so until I understood what was being said. I was also taught to voice differing opinions and to make an effort to ensure that my view was understood by the person I was talking with. If I didn't speak up, then it was assumed that I fully comprehended what was being said to me and didn't have any disagreement with it. I had friends, though, who were raised to never question parents/elders, even if they disagreed or didn't understand. So, who was exhibiting bad behaviour? Again, it's a matter of perspective, and we can't always see what's going on beneath the surface.

quote:


I understand wanting to be with a partner who has made significant effort in all of the areas that I touched on, however I began this journey with my first Dominant at the tender age of 15, and no I don't think that I had it all down pat at that age. Heck, I still don't. Learning for me will I hope, be a lifelong process. But that's just me and my opinions.


I didn't have it all down pat at that age either, but I didn't need a dominant partner to get me there. That was my responsibility, and the responsibility of my parents. I was doing wiitwd when I was 16 years old, and frankly I was much more developed in some of the areas you mention than my partners were back then. They learned from me, I'm sure. Learning is often a two-way street, and I learned things from them as well. Every relationship is an opportunity for personal growth, but I think it's my own responsibility to do that, not my partner's.

Again, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your views, just that they seem unnecessarily narrow from where I'm sitting.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:25:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons
Again, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your views, just that they seem unnecessarily narrow from where I'm sitting.


Sherri,

You come into this thread on page 5 essentially bringing up a lot of the points brought up on pages 1-4. I have said this in so many ways as have others. Perhaps it will sink in on page 6?

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
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