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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:27:57 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		What kind of odds are you giving? I might take some of that action.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:41:17 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You come into this thread on page 5 essentially bringing up a lot of the points brought up on pages 1-4. I have said this in so many ways as have others. Perhaps it will sink in on page 6?



I've been crazy busy lately and haven't had time to read the forums. I admit that I only briefly skimmed the previous posts in the thread before I had my say. My apologies for the repetition, but perhaps the use of different examples added something to the discussion. At least it wasn't a <aol> me too </aol> post!

_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:42:50 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

Again, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your views, just that they seem unnecessarily narrow from where I'm sitting.


That may well be, but they are still my views....and I still stand by them. It has been very interesting to see all of the differing opinions.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:44:25 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		An interesting thing has happened today. I knew when I posted that I would certainly be in the minority in my thoughts, especially considering the medium I chose to express them in. What I didn't expect is that there would be a split that manifested itself in a rather odd manner.

While there have been a number of posts here on the board itself in support..most have been rather to the negative. I had fully expected to get a ton of hate mail. Well I have gotten mail. The funny thing is that the mail has all been 100% positive so far and most have cited the reason for not posting on this side as being that they know their opinion is not the popular one and that they did not wish to subject themselves to the subsequent attacks that they felt sure to come. Interesting?....or sad commentary on a forum where people are supposed to feel free to express their individuality?


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:46:04 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You come into this thread on page 5 essentially bringing up a lot of the points brought up on pages 1-4. I have said this in so many ways as have others. Perhaps it will sink in on page 6?



I've been crazy busy lately and haven't had time to read the forums. I admit that I only briefly skimmed the previous posts in the thread before I had my say. My apologies for the repetition, but perhaps the use of different examples added something to the discussion. At least it wasn't a <aol> me too </aol> post!


Oh no. I think you misunderstood the intent behind my remark. I'm glad you posted. You always have very intelligent things to say. And I really appreciate your ability to be open minded.

My point was that your efforts to show erin that
- we aren't in disagreement with her view
- nor do we think that she shouldn't be allowed to have her view
- but rather that we think that her continuing elevation of her view above all others is really the issue
might in fact be in vain...

Though if anyone can make someone open their eyes, you could definitely be the one.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:46:17 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

Perhaps it will sink in on page 6?


Not even a slight chance.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:48:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

Perhaps it will sink in on page 6?


Not even a slight chance.


I'm sorry then. I had high hopes that you might want to practice what you preached.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:54:10 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Interesting?....or sad commentary on a forum where people are supposed to feel free to express their individuality?

I think it's more of a commentary on those people.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:55:43 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

While there have been a number of posts here on the board itself in support..most have been rather to the negative.


Another perspective thing, I guess, because I didn't see much negativity when I went back and read the whole thread. I saw people expressing different opinions and thoughts and perspectives, and for the most part backing them up with the reasong why they did things they way they do. I suppose that I'm in the camp that believes you can disagree without being disagreeable and that's what I've seen in this thread.

quote:

I had fully expected to get a ton of hate mail.


I'm curious...have you gotten hate mail about posts you've made in the past. I've posted a lot of opinions here and I've never received any negative email about them. When people have disagreed with me they've always done it via the public forums. Has your experience been different?

quote:


Well I have gotten mail. The funny thing is that the mail has all been 100% positive so far and most have cited the reason for not posting on this side as being that they know their opinion is not the popular one and that they did not wish to subject themselves to the subsequent attacks that they felt sure to come.


"The lurkers support me in email" was often a rallying cry for people on usenet that found no public support for their perspective. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's what instantly came to mind.

FWIW, I haven't seen anyone attacked, so I don't know why people would be afraid to post in agreement based on that fear. I've seen several people agree with you, in fact, so why would others feel that they couldn't do so as well?

quote:


Interesting?....or sad commentary on a forum where people are supposed to feel free to express their individuality?


Honestly, I think it's more a commentary on the individuals in question than the forum. If someone is unsure of their beliefs or unable to define them clearly, or if they're unable to support what they're saying, then perhaps this isn't the "safest" place to post them. Things posted here are open for discussion and that will often include differing perspectives. Most people that I know welcome intelligent discussion about their thoughts and ideas, because it helps to see other perspectives and it's a way to better refine what they believe and why.



_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 7:58:06 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Though if anyone can make someone open their eyes, you could definitely be the one.



*blush* Thank you for that high praise! I did indeed misunderstand your post. Thanks for clarifying.

_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 8:17:41 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

I'm sorry then. I had high hopes that you might want to practice what you preached.


Oh I have practiced what I preach. I stated my opinions, I stood by my opinions, I put them out there in a public forum for everyone to pick them apart, I listened to everyone else's opinions, even gave them their due consideration. I still stand that my words reflect my feelings on the matter. I am very sorry if you think that I should just simply back down or adopt the opinion's of yourself or others,or as you say, have them sink in. As I stated numerous times now, they are my opinions and I don't expect anyone to conform to them or adopt them as their own. Why should anyone expect I would change them though just because theirs differ?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 8:55:45 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		I read this and I continue to wonder why you are so concerned with what other people do? I mean really, why do you care that someone's house is a mess or that they aren't living up to your expectations or experiences of what your D/s relationship is or what you think D/s is supposed to be?

Really, I think that I'm most happy when I'm worried about what's going on in my house, not what's going on in other people's houses. My house tends to get messy when I'm focusing on what the inside of other people's houses look like.

As long as people are content and happy in their relationships, what business of mine is it to judge them at all?

My 2 cents.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/25/2005 9:59:59 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		Well, it just goes to show that 100 people can read any given post and come up with 100 different interpretations; probably all different than what the originating author intended. I must admit to being quite surprised at a lot of the comments here, NOT for the fact that they expressed their opinion or that their opinions differ, but only because I just didn't read the OP with the same interpretation as many of those that have previously replied.

With regard to the OP and MY interpretation of it -- I took erin's sort of personal history and experience only as an example of the way a D/s relationship can be when it is more than just about the kink. I, personally, did not read it that she was indicating that this is the way a D/s relationship is supposed to be and all should be a carbon copy of it.

While I certainly can't say whether things used to be any different than they are now or any other kind of statistic, I can say that definitely the majority of those who have contacted me or whom I have met through both lifestyle events/functions or internet sites such as CM, were looking for play partners, or what is basically a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with kinky sex. If that is what works for some relationships, then it works for them and that's cool. However, I have had a few relationships that were based on that premise and they were short lived because I realized that for me -- it is NOT just about the kink. I can't tell you exactly what else that is or will be, because personally I think that will just depend on the person I meet and the relationship that evolves.

When I belong to a Dom -- I do consider my behavior to be a reflection of him -- as well as an indication of my own personal responsibility. That means the behavior that is appropriate to whatever the situation is, whether it be a lifestyle event or a company picnic or a formal cocktail party. This, in my mind, is not unique to a D/s relationship though, and quite frankly if I were with a vanilla date at a formal cocktail party and he suddenly started wiping his mouth on the tablecloth and belching loudly and goosing the hostess as we were introduced.......I would certainly be embarrassed and consider his behavior a reflection on me. My children are a reflection on me, in my business, my employees are a reflection of my company and ultimately of me.

I can only state that I too have felt the frustration that was apparent in erin's post, especially regarding responsibility and about guiding a submissive to be not only a better submissive, but a better human being in general. My frustration may be for somewhat different reasons, but in general, I agree with it.

harmony

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 5:55:36 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I am very sorry if you think that I should just simply back down or adopt the opinion's of yourself or others,or as you say, have them sink in. As I stated numerous times now, they are my opinions and I don't expect anyone to conform to them or adopt them as their own. Why should anyone expect I would change them though just because theirs differ?


Nowhere in this thread have I asked you to back down or adopt the opinions of any other person.
Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that you can't have your opinion.
Nowhere in this thread have I expected you to change your opinion.
Where you get this idea, I have no clue.

What I have suggested it that perhaps you'd like to stop saying that your way is the ultimate way, calling other forms of BDSM lost in the dark ages or Burger King BDSM or the way of the unkempt slob.

You're way is definitely not my way but I have never said that your way was wrong. See what I mean?

Many of simply asked that you demonstrate a little more tolerance and perhaps at some point you can strive for acceptance.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 6:27:39 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Lady Angelika,
At NO POINT in this thread did I state that your way or anyone else's was wrong. I simply stated that my way is right for ME. I never said that BDSM was lost in the Dark Ages, what I said was I felt as though I were from the Dark Ages, I never used the terms unkempt slob either. I did refer to Burger King BDSM because I feel it has all become "Have it your way". I did say that my way is the optimal way......for ME...NOT for you or anyone else.

My original post was merely an observation of something I have been noticing. I think that I am an extremely tolerant person and I would never try to convince you or anyone else that your way is wrong or that my way is right. I have said that MANY times over...even in this thread.

So given all of that I am not really sure why you continue to have an issue with what I have said. If there are specific words you wish me to type to appease you, simply state them and I will consider them. I have responded to you repeatedly on this thread, at times even agreeing with you, but no matter what I seem to say or how I seem to say it you have found something else to comment on. I have not been rude to you in any way nor have I made any comments to you that implied you were dense(like your comment about it sinking in to me). I mean are we debating just for the sake of debating at this point?

I guess that this medium is difficult to express the intention behind the words. A few people here have understood. Harmony certainly did. I was expressing an observation and my frustration born of that obeservation. I PERSONALLY don't like to see the changes that I have seen taking place.

I have also made an observation over the years that Hershey bars have gotten smaller and smaller. I am very frustrated over that too. Should we debate this?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 6:39:34 AM   
Shayna


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps it's that all subcultures have intense variety among it's members: there never is consensus on what is the "authentic" way, and lots of tension between this group that believes "xyz", and this other that is only into "q". I've seen this debate in every subculture I've been a member of. People tend to gravitate to others that they are most comfortable around - so why not go with that? If you (general "you") desire to be around people who live a certain way and where you will be guaranteed to not be subjected to clutter and chaos, then don't go there. I'm sure those people would rather not have others in their lives who are making judgements about the choices they make. I was at a fetish party recently and someone made a rude comment to me about a couple that were playing on a piece of equipment - it was about what they were wearing and how they looked. It turned my stomach. I have little tolerance for superficiality; it reminds me of the snotty suburb I grew up in and felt completely alienated from because I never "fit in" (thankfully!). I've lived in many different cities and been part of a variety of smallish communities and one thing I've learned is that looks can be decieving: you never know what's REALLY going on with people, so take a step back before pronouncing judgement. Also, difference is GOOD! Life is worth living because so many people are nothing like me. I really enjoy spending time with people that I have a lot in common with - but I grow the most by having people in my life that are different from me and who's lives provoke me to think about mine.

And yes everyone has a right to their opinion. This is mine.


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 6:56:44 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I went back and re-read my original post. It have been wondering where some have formed their opinions. In particular the messy house and the dirty dishes. Everyone seemed to take that literally. That was not about anyone in particular and I went back to it to make sure that I had not expressed it as such. That was a HYPOTHETICAL situation. Yes I have seen varying degrees of it in real life. What is was about was a big picture of lives out of control, while there is one person in it who is claiming to be totally in control. It doesn't have to be a messy house, it could be about finances, it could be about health, it could be about a myriad of things. It was simply an observation about how some claim to be MASTER WITH 100% CONTROL over every aspect of their lives when in reality they have made no effort to control anything. I could really care less if someone has dirty dishes. It is about the whole picture.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 6:58:21 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Lady Angelika,
At NO POINT in this thread did I state that your way or anyone else's was wrong. I simply stated that my way is right for ME.


Hi erin,

I think what Angelika, and others, were trying to point out was that you have been conversing with a very dismissive and disrespectful attitude toward a style of BDSM for which you clearly have no respect.

Personally, I like that you take a stand. You find the way others practice BDSM to be incompatible with, and a bit offensive to, your way of thinking, and are not afraid to say so.

I think their point really was that in this lifestyle there is an awful lot of judging and condemnation from without...and we might be better off if there were less from within. I, myself, have been the lucky recipient of a nasty email from an ex-in-law who happened upon my web page. She called me sick and perverted and threw in a rather hurtful comment about regretting letting her kids, my nephew and niece (whom I adored), spend time alone with me.

I am not saying what you wrote in any way comes close to what that email said, but some of us come here because we hope we can find acceptance, or at least respectful tolerance, from the vast majority of those here, no matter what our kink or how we practice it. Your attitude in your posts could be seen, by some, as the tip of the iceburg of intolerance and hate.

Does that make sense?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 7:30:02 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

come here because we hope we can find acceptance, or at least respectful tolerance, from the vast majority of those here, no matter what our kink or how we practice it. Your attitude in your posts could be seen, by some, as the tip of the iceburg of intolerance and hate.


Thank you Taggard,
i do appreciate what you have said. I come here for the same reasons you have stated. I have stated over and over how these are my opinions and mine alone. I don't know how else to say it. I don't think that my responses have been intolerant or hateful...I have said it in every way I can think of that I respect others' ways. These are direct quotes:

1. I am not saying that I feel kink based relationships are wrong in anyway....what I am saying is that to say you are living D/s or M/s and the only thing you seem to incorporate is kink, is not an entirely accurate depiction of the common D/s, M/s relationship.

2. I certainly did not mean to imply that my views were more correct or that you had to share them. I also did not mean to imply that you or anyone else had to adopt my practices or philosophies. I wasn't trying to convert you.

3. I never said that anyone had to conform to anything. I was merely making observations.

4. Once again, I am not trying to convert you. Do what is right for you.

5. I honestly do respect your thoughts, even if they are not condusive to mine. I was not trying to make value judgements and my apologies to you and anyone else who may perceive it that way. I am certainly not judging if your way is right or wrong....only expressing what is right for me. For me, this is the type of relationship that is optimal. That does not mean it has to be for you or anyone else. Be well.

6. I am always open to others thoughts and opinions. Whether or not I choose to own another's opinion and apply it to me life is another thing entirely. I welcome other's views and I have tough skin.

7. I stand by my original post. It contained my feelings, thoughts, emotions and opinions. No where in it did I state that anyone had to change the way they choose to live out their lives or their relationships. I am sorry if others opinions differ, I didn't expect everyone to be of the same mindset, hence my apology at the very beginning of the post.

8. Please understand I am certainly not attempting to make anyone decide what example to follow. I am merely presenting an example that I believe is different from the one I am more commonly seeing today. Just my views...not a personal attack to everyone

9. The post was and still is my opinion. It was about the concept of a different time and a different way vs. the way in which everyone seems to want to morph it to fit in with what they want it to be today. Do I personally think it was a better way, you betcha I do. Do you have to think the same way, of course not. I did not ask for it to be your way or anyone else's for that matter.

10. I do very much value your opinion, even if it is not concurrent with mine.

11. I follow your posts and have come to respect and value your opinion. I do appreciate your perspective and your comments.

12. they are my opinions and I don't expect anyone to conform to them or adopt them as their own.

13. At NO POINT in this thread did I state that your way or anyone else's was wrong. I simply stated that my way is right for ME

14. I did say that my way is the optimal way......for ME...NOT for you or anyone else.

15. I would never try to convince you or anyone else that your way is wrong or that my way is right. I have said that MANY times over...even in this thread.

How else would you suggest I say it? How else can I express that I am tolerant to other's views and ways?


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 7:38:52 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
It was simply an observation about how some claim to be MASTER WITH 100% CONTROL over every aspect of their lives when in reality they have made no effort to control anything. I could really care less if someone has dirty dishes. It is about the whole picture.


Whereas no one has 100% of anything, I think that the issue here is your inability to accept that some people are not "in the same groove" as you are.. and, that is ok.. after all, I know I am not - but, then again - you are not in mine.

As far as "trends" in leather go - this is (as you must realize) entirely subjective.

From my point of view, there have always been people who do not do what I do - and, at some points it irritates me... but, then I simply remember that I do not have to live their lives.

From the viewpoint of on-line opinions expressed - I find generally the same thing over time - some people are (in my view) 'light weights'.

It does not make them "bad people" (some folks I know are in this classification in my mind relative to leather - are very happy with their lives, and I respect them and like them for finding their niche and being the people they are).

Then there are the folks that I (lazily) classify as "insane" - they are the extremists that will do and say anything for whatever reasons they have, and are not in my league either. I have friends amongst them as well... people who I sincerely respect and like because (Again), they are comfortable in their own skin, and are sincerely good people.

I think there are always people on each end of the bellcurve for every individual who looks at them...

There has never been a homogenous means of classification; there has never been 'one way' for people to behave, we have never been people who 'fall into the X percentile catagory of Kink/Power Exchange ratio'.

The interaction and interrelation are and always have been all over the chart.

So, I suppose we would have to really know your demographics (place you live, the groups you know, the internet interchanges you have had, seen and participated in - in order to wrap our minds about whether the judgement you have rendered on specific trends in the mindset of peoples involved is sincerely losing a facet that is not that tanglible to the casual reader...

It is a good rant however...

~J

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 120
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