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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 7:47:36 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

I think that the issue here is your inability to accept that some people are not "in the same groove" as you are


LoD,
I completely agree with the entirety of your post. Thank you for your understanding. The only thing that I feel a bit differently about is the line I quoted. I fully accept others who are not in the same groove. What I tend to have an issue with though are those who claim to be in the same groove and are not if that makes any sense. My issue is with the folks who are shouting from the mountain top "I am MASTER, 100% in charge!!!" or "I am slave, completely owned and operated by Master24/7" when in reality, the only part of it that is evidenced in the ways they conduct themselves are their declarations that it is so. Just be who you say you are and don't claim to be something you are not.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 2/26/2005 7:49:19 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:13:47 AM   
songbird26


Posts: 72
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

1. I am not saying that I feel kink based relationships are wrong in anyway....what I am saying is that to say you are living D/s or M/s and the only thing you seem to incorporate is kink, is not an entirely accurate depiction of the common D/s, M/s relationship.



One last try...here's the thing. By saying that their depiction is "not accurate," you are essentially saying "misleading and wrong," which can be extrapolated to "you shouldn't call your relationship D/s or M/s unless you do it a certain way, which is MY way." Which is clearly a judgement of others and the way they do things and, implicitly, a desire that people change the way they do things to match up with your personal expectations. Which is fine, it's your opinion (as you've stated), but you seemed to have formed it without taking into account that their relationship might NOT be based entirely on what you call "kink" (and what I would call sex-play, since for me the word "kink" incorporates power exchange as well), and that it simply might not be a D/s dynamic that you recognize or acknowledge because it is different from your personal experience.

No attacks here, just clarification. To me, your original post could have been translated to "I don't like dirty people or people who behave in boorish, ill-mannered ways, and if they're in a bdsm relationship, their nasty behavior means that they're not doing it right, so they should change that." I think it's fair to say that we all wish people were always well-groomed, mannerly and presentable, and behaved just how we'd like 'em to, but kinky or vanilla, it's just not really feasible to expect that. And rant or not, conversion-attempt or not, when you make a post that is highly critical and judgemental of others, you can expect people to come in and offer differing views. You used strong and disapproving words, and expressed great frustration and even anger, so how could you possibly expect people to take it any other way than they did?

And, as a final note, your respondants have focused on the 'dirty dishes, bad food, feral children' aspect of your rant because that is precisely the example that you provided us with. You did not say "as a hypothetical example." You used a highly descriptive passage that seemed to come from personal experience. So, in order to keep a reply relevant to the original post, of COURSE that's what your responders will refer to, given that it seemed to be the origin of your rant in the first place.

I'm not personally offended or upset by your post: again, this is not an attack. But I think it's important that you realize that people react to words as you put them down on the page; we're not mind readers, and we don't know your intentions. We can only respond and react to the actual post you make. Cries of "but you don't understand" or "you got it wrong!" don't fly; burden of clarity and comprehensibility is on the original poster.


< Message edited by songbird26 -- 2/26/2005 8:29:35 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:24:49 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Yeah, you'd be welcome in my city too, Taggard. Funny thing is, I am in Rochester. Been here for about a month. Doing some consulting for a major company in town (shouldn't be too hard to guess which company that might be). I'll be here another three weeks.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas


I'm starting to think Rochester is sitting on a hell mouth ~grin~

Welcome Leonidas. The Flower/Flour city has much to offer. If you need any assistance while at the BYB, just let me know.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:45:52 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
How else would you suggest I say it? How else can I express that I am tolerant to other's views and ways?


All of your quotes are a bit like sutting the barn door after the cows have left.

Instead of telling others how accepting and tolerant you are, you might just avoid making comments that seem to show you as unaccepting and intolerant, such as:

quote:


Maybe I am just getting old but in many ways I see changes happening here that I don’t necessarily think are for the good.


and

quote:


I prefer it to the Burger King style of BDSM that is being frequently practiced today.


Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 9:23:00 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Lady Angelika,
At NO POINT in this thread did I state that your way or anyone else's was wrong.


Look erin, you seem to be upset with me, at the very least very defensive with me, when all I’m trying to do is point something out to you. You resist over and over again without for one moment considering that what Lawrence, Sherri, Taggard, songbird and many others have been trying to point out to you.

I told you this in my second post on page 1 …
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Perhaps you didn’t intend to say that kink based relationships were wrong in anyway. If that is the case, your words did not reflect your intentions. I am not trying to start an argument with you. I'd say on the whole, I appreciate your posts here and I have developed a certain amount of respect for you. I am simply trying to point out that your rant (as you called it) makes a value judgement, whether you want to recognise it or not, about what kind of D/s or M/s relationship is optimal.


… and all I’ve been doing is trying to tell you in other ways, hoping you might understand. I’m not giving up on you erin, as I think that deep down you have your heart in the right place. But you have to open your eyes and look at how you are expressing yourself. Many of us state pretty bold opinions here and we don’t get slammed for it because we do it in a tone that doesn’t demean others’ points of view.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 9:47:56 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"The lurkers support me in email" was often a rallying cry for people on usenet that found no public support for their perspective. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's what instantly came to mind.


No, SherriA, I have never gotten negative mail in regards to a post. I have on quite a number of occasions gotten positive mail regarding a post or mail that was regarding a post that touched on a very personal subject or experience(such as rape). Your quote implies that I could possibly be being deceiving in reference to having received the mail I stated. While I am certainly not going to publish anyone's thoughts here in a public forum where they obviously wished not to be, all I can say is that if you truly feel that you need confirmation I am sure that you could contact a Mod privately and they could confirm it for you.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 10:10:02 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I told you this in my second post on page 1 …


and I answered it in my response on page 1
Lady Angelika,
I honestly do respect your thoughts, even if they are not condusive to mine. I was not trying to make value judgements and my apologies to you and anyone else who may perceive it that way. What I was trying to do is put my "Rant" out there for those who feel that something is lacking or who wish for something a bit deeper. For those who would like to entertain the idea that there is another way and that there are people out there who have and are living it that way. I am certainly not judging if your way is right or wrong....only expressing what is right for me. For me, this is the type of relationship that is optimal. That does not mean it has to be for you or anyone else. Be well.

Let me assure you of this, I am not upset with you in any way. I guess the term frustration would be appropriate although that is not solely in reference to your and my interaction, but to the interaction as a whole. This is one of the downfalls of internet communications as the person on the other end can not have the benefit of facial expressions or voice inflection. As I said previously I am not sure how else to say that I am understanding and tolerant of what others choose to do and that I am not trying to force anyone to accept my opinion. If I for instance said that I thought that strawberries were the optimal fruit for me and that I really didn't care for other types of fruit...would everyone eating apples feel demeaned....even if I went so far as to say that I personally didn't like their color, their texture or their aroma? No of course they would not because they would see that I was merely stating my opinion and they didn't have to suddenly stop eating apples because I said negative things about them. I know this is a very simplistic example but I am trying to put it on a level that takes the emotion out of it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:13:04 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		mistoferin

May I paraphrase your first post to see if I am interpreting it correctly?

you were raised in a specific area of the Lifestyle in a certain way that led you to believe that everyone did things that way. This was the way you were taught and the way it was done by the majority of the people around you. you knew what your rights and obligations were and those of your Master. The roles were clear cut and made sense to you. The values and beliefs that you learned in the Lifestyle felt right for and to you.

After many years you looked around and suddenly became aware of the fact that other people/couples were doing things differently and seemed to hold very different values even though they referred to their area of the Lifestyle using the same terminology that you do. your basic questions are:

1. Was it always like that and you simply had not noticed?
2. Have things changed the way so much in our society seems to have changed (values, attitudes)?
3. Has anyone else noticed a change?
4. If there has been a change, does anyone else...who was also taught the same type of Lifestyle that you were... miss the way it used to be done?

Would this sum up what you were saying? And if not then what did I misinterpret?

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:16:40 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Gentle Lady,
Oh Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes you pretty much have the gist, although I don't think it was a sudden "noticing" that things were changing, more gradual, but a sudden feeling that I was now among the minority.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to GentleLady)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:35:49 AM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		mistoferin

So the rant is not a value judgement of anyone or anything but more of a cry of protest at feeling like you are part of a dying breed. That does happen at certain points in our lives.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:38:33 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Gentle Lady,
Oh Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes you pretty much have the gist, although I don't think it was a sudden "noticing" that things were changing, more gradual, but a sudden feeling that I was now among the minority.


If that is what it is that you meant to say, then you need to leave out statements such as
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I am not saying that I feel kink based relationships are wrong in anyway....what I am saying is that to say you are living D/s or M/s and the only thing you seem to incorporate is kink, is not an entirely accurate depiction of the common D/s, M/s relationship.


The bolded part is a judgement on others. Do you see what I mean?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:57:33 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

what I am saying is that to say you are living D/s or M/s and the only thing you seem to incorporate is kink, is not an entirely accurate depiction of the common D/s, M/s relationship


"became aware of the fact that other people/couples were doing things differently and seemed to hold very different values even though they referred to their area of the Lifestyle using the same terminology that you do"

Lady Angelika,
I do see your point. These two statements mean generally the same thing to me. I guess it is all in the perception of the reader. I did try to explain it another way when I said that I could call myself a Doctor but that wouldn't make it so. When you learn one thing is_____, and someone comes along and says you are wrong, now it's_____, does that mean you were wrong to call it that? I mean if that is the case then I could grow up knowing that a certain book is called the Bible and then one day someone comes along and says.....oh we don't call it that anymore, or we have now decided to expand it to include the entire collection of Hustler magazine because that is what suits us. Would that make my knowing it as the Bible no longer ok? Would it make my opinion that it was better left the way it was before the expansion wrong?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 11:59:16 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Gosh I wish I could have explained this so simply. Thank you.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to GentleLady)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 1:22:23 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


Posts: 125
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

No, SherriA, I have never gotten negative mail in regards to a post. I have on quite a number of occasions gotten positive mail regarding a post or mail that was regarding a post that touched on a very personal subject or experience(such as rape).


Yeah, that's been my experience as well. I wondered if yours had been different, since you said you expected hate mail after your initial post. I'm glad these forums haven't descended to that level.

quote:

Your quote implies that I could possibly be being deceiving in reference to having received the mail I stated. While I am certainly not going to publish anyone's thoughts here in a public forum where they obviously wished not to be, all I can say is that if you truly feel that you need confirmation I am sure that you could contact a Mod privately and they could confirm it for you.


I don't need or expect you to post private email at all. Your comment simply brought that old usenet cry to mind, and I know there are people here who are familiar with it. Since you DID have support in the forums it didn't really apply to you anyway; it was just your comment that made me think of it. FWIW, because of what I associate with claims of that sort, I have to stop myself from jumping to the conclusion that anyone who says it is full of shit. (I'm usually pretty good at backing off from that assumption pretty quickly when it's inappropriate.)

_____________________________

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A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

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RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 2:50:46 PM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

1. I am not saying that I feel kink based relationships are wrong in anyway....what I am saying is that to say you are living D/s or M/s and the only thing you seem to incorporate is kink, is not an entirely accurate depiction of the common D/s, M/s relationship.


At which point they are not living a D/s or M/s relationship, and your complaints have no validity. So what if they label themselves dominant and submissive, and their understanding of those definitions differ from yours. Again, I say: So what?

This entire thread has basically been you trying to force everyone to see your definition of D/s or M/s as the "only true definition". If someone uses the words dominant and submissive rather than top and bottom to describe a relationship in which sex is the only place either one of them tops or bottoms, that's fine, and you don't seem to understand that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

What I tend to have an issue with though are those who claim to be in the same groove and are not if that makes any sense.


Lemme put this another way: If someone says "I'm dominant", that does not automatically imply that they wish to control every aspect of a submissive's life. You seem to be asserting that by simply using the label, they're trying to fit into your exclusive club, but because they don't do things according to your rules, they're somehow "wrong".

Makes me wonder where switches fit into your whole mixed up universe. Stop trying to assert your dominance over the usage of words or what people do or do not do in their relationships. No one asked you to butt in.

_____________________________

</sarcasm>

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 4:51:21 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This entire thread has basically been you trying to force everyone to see your definition of D/s or M/s as the "only true definition".


You are 100% entitled to your opinion, it still doesn't make it so.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Moleculor)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 6:21:09 PM   
Tempestspet


Posts: 360
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline 		I really don't want to repeat what everyone has said, so I'll try my best not to, other than say well said to many of you.

I see that you are younger than my mother, yet your atitudes and stubborness for change vie for room with my grandmothers. She managed to keep to spotless house, perfectly groomed children... the whole nine yards. But somehow my mother never stood up to her scrutinization because her house was less than perfect, largely due to the fact she had my sister and I running through with our friends all the time. She also worked, and had responsiblities outside the home.
This is the way you are coming off, because you were able to do it... everyone else should.
The most important, or certainly in the top 5, rules I've learned in this lifestyle is that there is no one set of rules. The rules vary from couple to couple. They are as different as the people involoved.
I'm willing to bet you turning your nose up at another subs house, and her doms manner, left them with a less than stellar opinion of you. Lifestyle or not, my Master would have put you out, and asked what kind of dom, or master you could have had to perport such manners, to exhibit so little in another's home. And there is no such thing as, I didn't open my mouth and say anything. They will always find out, and probably from the feel you gave off, look on your face, and atittude you displayed.

I'm not trying to be mean... just to raise another point of view.

I'm definately one to jump all over the brats and snots in the chat rooms who say they are real... but behave the way they do, just cause they are not seen. That's a rant I could have myself, for days.

There was much in your original post that I liked, and kind of reaffirmed things I could do better on myself. So I think you very much for that. The above mentioned things are simply another view on how your words have been taken. Likely in person by some, as well as on here.
Thank you all for now having listened to my rant...*smiles*

Tempest's pet

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:29:42 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		That was a rant? OMG, then I agree with your ranting full force..I wish many of the newbies and a few of the old greys would take what you have said to heart.
A very repectful Standing Ovation

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:51:40 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm willing to bet you turning your nose up at another subs house, and her doms manner, left them with a less than stellar opinion of you. Lifestyle or not, my Master would have put you out, and asked what kind of dom, or master you could have had to perport such manners, to exhibit so little in another's home. And there is no such thing as, I didn't open my mouth and say anything. They will always find out, and probably from the feel you gave off, look on your face, and atittude you displayed.


If you had read the entire thread you would have realized that this was a hypothetical situation....not one that really happened. Just hypothetical examples of a life out of control.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Tempestspet)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Is it all just about the kink today? - 2/26/2005 8:59:34 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I wish many of the newbies and a few of the old greys would take what you have said to heart.


Well judging by the reception the concepts have received here in this forum, I would say that there is little chance of that occurring. Thank you very much for your support and understanding. It is good to hear from others who agree and gives me happiness to know that I am far from the last one out there who feels this way.

(by the way....I love your tag line and that thing in your profile about the interplanetary travel gave me a much, much needed laugh)

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 140
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