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RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/20/2007 2:25:24 PM

LadyEllen

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Sorry Seeks. The quote I took of Rule makes perfect sense to me. Please let me know where the circular reasoning is?

But then again, Rule and I are of a certain type I believe, judging from prior occasions when we two understand one another whilst no one else can follow what we're saying.

We're either equally confused and unintelligent, or possess equitable clarity and intellect. You will forgive me for feeling that the latter is more likely to be applicable.

E

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Post #: 81

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/20/2007 3:53:46 PM

seeksfemslave

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Circular reasoning......
(a) Natural Selection is true
(b) Only those characteristics that confer advantage are in the long run transmitted down the generations and eventually become the norm in a species.
(c) High IQ is not the norm in the human species.
(d) Natural Selection is true therefore high IQ offers no advantage to the species.

Seeks' reasoning...
(x)High IQ confers enormous advantages
(y)High IQ is not the norm in human species
(z) Natural Selection is untrue.

Even if you counter that Natural Selection will produce a spread in any given characteristic, the centre point of that spread should shift with time , this has demonstrably not occured with intelligence.

Your only fall back now is that sufficient time has not yet passed for the positive changes to be seen. More time being required to find more fossils is the argument used to counter the failure of paleantology to support Natural selection.
Coincidence ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/20/2007 3:58:35 PM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 82

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/20/2007 5:22:24 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
But then again, Rule and I are of a certain type I believe, judging from prior occasions when we two understand one another whilst no one else can follow what we're saying.

Quite. They are suffering from hubris as well.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 83

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/20/2007 5:38:08 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Circular reasoning......
(a) Natural Selection is true
(b) Only those characteristics that confer advantage are in the long run transmitted down the generations and eventually become the norm in a species.
(c) High IQ is not the norm in the human species.
(d) Natural Selection is true therefore high IQ offers no advantage to the species.

Seeks' reasoning...
(x)High IQ confers enormous advantages
(y)High IQ is not the norm in human species
(z) Natural Selection is untrue.

Even if you counter that Natural Selection will produce a spread in any given characteristic, the centre point of that spread should shift with time , this has demonstrably not occured with intelligence.

Your only fall back now is that sufficient time has not yet passed for the positive changes to be seen. More time being required to find more fossils is the argument used to counter the failure of paleantology to support Natural selection.
Coincidence ?

If you think intelligence necessarily confers advantage on a species then you are misunderstanding natural selection. You should look at the genes and not the organism. Termites are far more successful than humans as a species and I'm not sure we would count them as intelligent. The genes fill the gaps and there is no intelligence involved in that be they genese of humans or termites.

OK its saturday night and I've had a drink and indulged in another rather nice vice so my explanation might not be that clear.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/20/2007 5:40:44 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 1:21:26 AM

seeksfemslave

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Termites being more successfull than humans is an argument on the same level as a one legged horse being faster than a four legged one.

I do get what you are driving at tho'

A bit of vice would do me the world of good.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/21/2007 1:22:31 AM >

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Post #: 85

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 1:41:15 AM

GoddessGreed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

[As for speaking her mind, well, personally I'm surprised there's anything in there to be spoken. But as it is, she is what one might call forthright, I'll give her that, but to be honest there's nothing she has to say which appears worth listening to.

E

thats your opinion, to be honest your attitude disgusts me, you seem to think for some reason that because she's not as intelligent as some, that makes her less of a person,
I happen to think she is good entertainment...which is what the show is all about. There are obviously going to be alot of people that dont want to watch...but then if they look closely at there tv controls, there are little buttons, that turn to a different channel ..clever huh! and i bet even Jade can work that one out in all her stupidness!!

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 86

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 2:39:08 AM

poplolly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bleachedsmiles

..which makes your comment all the more mute.

If insults are to be bandied, perhaps the correct terminology ought be used. For example:

Mute: silent, refraining from speech or utterance; OR incapable of speech.

Moot: open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point; OR of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic. (from www.dictionary.com)

I'm just sayin' that if intelligence is going to be called into question, well.....

< Message edited by poplolly -- 1/21/2007 2:49:40 AM >

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(in reply to bleachedsmiles)

Post #: 87

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 3:20:36 AM

seeksfemslave

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Maybe bleachedsmiles really meant mute lol
ie viscious declamatory comment should not be heard.

LadyE I presume would not comment thus against black people, in fact it is mentioned in this thread that it is or soon will be against the Law, however she has no problem about about doing it against white people who she sees as stupid and inferior. Why is that then ? Double standards, surely not, leave tht to PC Liberals!!!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/21/2007 3:21:19 AM >

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Post #: 88

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 3:38:23 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Termites being more successfull than humans is an argument on the same level as a one legged horse being faster than a four legged one.

I do get what you are driving at tho'

A bit of vice would do me the world of good.

You are assuming that humans have a special place in the universe which is rather conceited. If the human species became extinct tomorrow who and what would care? The world will still turn as it did before humans arrived on the scene.

_____________________________

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Post #: 89

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 3:56:31 AM

seeksfemslave

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True enough, thats why I admitted I could see your point.

Creepy Crawlies will probably inherit the Earth.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 90

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 7:05:24 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Maybe bleachedsmiles really meant mute lol
ie viscious declamatory comment should not be heard.

LadyE I presume would not comment thus against black people, in fact it is mentioned in this thread that it is or soon will be against the Law, however she has no problem about about doing it against white people who she sees as stupid and inferior. Why is that then ? Double standards, surely not, leave tht to PC Liberals!!!

Oh dear Seeks. You know, given your seniority I always give time for anything you have to say, but I'm afraid youre demonstrating such a daft attitude here.

How many times do I have to say it? Ignorance and stupidity is a universal human trait in around 80% of any country's population, whatever their colour, ethnicity, religion or whatever. Characteristics of birth and cultural environment have no connection with stupidity and/or ignorance, albeit that in a place like North Korea I suppose one could lay ignorance at the door of cultural environment.

What do you want me to say? That 80% of people of African descent are stupid and ignorant too? Just as 80% of people of any descent are? I should have thought that what I'd said previously meant exactly that already, but just for you I'll say it.

The point being though, the 80% - which means that no one can say that for instance, all whites or all black people are stupid or indeed make a connection between skin colour and ignorance. To observe the 80%, even if it is a guesstimate, is an observation. To then imply that the qualities of the 80% apply to the 100% is ridiculous and is what leads us to stupidity and ignorance ourselves by way of racist thinking.

MC already explained why there was nothing illogical in what Rule said, so I wont comment further on that.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 91

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 7:32:16 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessGreed

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

[As for speaking her mind, well, personally I'm surprised there's anything in there to be spoken. But as it is, she is what one might call forthright, I'll give her that, but to be honest there's nothing she has to say which appears worth listening to.

E

thats your opinion, to be honest your attitude disgusts me, you seem to think for some reason that because she's not as intelligent as some, that makes her less of a person,
I happen to think she is good entertainment...which is what the show is all about. There are obviously going to be alot of people that dont want to watch...but then if they look closely at there tv controls, there are little buttons, that turn to a different channel ..clever huh! and i bet even Jade can work that one out in all her stupidness!!

And that is your opinion, and its valid. And please do not misrepresent me - Jade is a valid human being.

The problem we have is that opinions are not all equally valid. For example, I have opinions of quantum physics, but the opinion on that subject of one who has trained in it are undoubtedly of greater value than my own. Equally, as a trained and competent quantum physicist, he/she will be of greater validity in that field than I. To then assume from that, that I have no value whatever is plainly ridiculous.

My issue with the likes of Jade, and many others of like attitude and behaviour, is that her promotion to iconic role model is perpetuating a mindset in our country that it is not just OK to be ignorant and obnoxious, but that indeed this is something to be celebrated. True enough, Jade is one of the results of this process herself, which started a few decades ago now, with "trendy" 70s thinking that relied on total equality - the problem there being, that we are not all equal, and so the only way to bring that about is by making the lowest common denominator the ideal. This is a cultural and social disaster, as I'm sure Seeks will agree. Its utmost goal is a nation of equally stupid and ignorant people, so that no one could possibly be perceived as better than someone else.

Now it is of course a valid aim, to bring about equality. But it is the misunderstanding of that concept which has brought us to this situation now. We are all different and therefore we can never all be equal. I'm an intellectual, my brother is a mechanic - there is no means of making us equal, because just as he does not and will never understand psychology I do not know how and will never be able to fix engines. BUT, this does not mean that either of us treat the other as lesser or greater, and indeed there is no grounds by which to do that.

The misunderstanding of the 70s lies in a confusion between equality and equitability. My brother and I are of equitable value, but not equal value. What this means in respect of Jade is, that she is also equitable with me, but not equal with me - I'm sure she must have some abilities with which I would struggle to compete, but sadly she is not being celebrated for those, but for portraying the loud obnoxious attitude and behaviour which must, I hope, represent areas for improvement to her, but which thereby are being perpetuated and iconicised in our society.

It is not "cool" or "clever" to be loud and obnoxious, it is not admirable to portay ignorance and stupidity in one's dealings with others. Except, that this is what is being promoted as an aspiration for millions whose steady progress into that mindset is daily reenforced thereby too. Jade is welcome to be and do as she will, but that is not to say she should be permitted the opportunity to do so in the way she does, in front of millions of others in the 80%.

And just for Seeks - please understand that whatever her background, I am courageous enough to be confident that I would hold Jade in exactly the same regard, because skin colour does not as some might seem to think, provide an excuse for it.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to GoddessGreed)

Post #: 92

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 8:13:36 AM

seeksfemslave

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LadyE: I believe that your 80% stat. regarding the number of stupid people present in any given society cannot possibly be true due to the way physical/mental attributes are distributed in humans. But that is not my central criticism in this thread and I suspect you know it.

You launched a shocking tirade against the likes of J Goody and I still claim you would not have done that had JG been black. Now, I believe you are trying to "rationalise your way out of it", well I forgive you because that is what intellectuals frequently do, rationalise I mean not forgive.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/21/2007 8:15:05 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 93

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 8:36:46 AM

LadyEllen

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OK then Seeks, lets think of some non-whites who portray stupidity and ignorance in the same way.....just for your benefit I'll name them as such.

Except I cant think of any - if I knew the names of some rappers (the smack "yo ho", drive by shootin' drug dealing celebrating kind) I could, but I dont take much notice to be honest. Please do let me know if you can.

And there's a thing. Its clever people who are promoting JG and putting her up there as a celebrity, because they see the marketing potential by way of appeal to the 80% of the reward of stupidity that her promotion signifies. I wonder if JG realises this? These same clever marketing people I perceive, realise a stupid black person wouldnt work the same way, since the white majority hold this to be a "true" stereotype. JGs value lies in the proposition that success can be achieved without claim to talent, ability, education and manners, thus endorsing this for the 80% of the population who exhibit the absence of some or all of these qualities, and in the offensive comedic value to those who do not, who are laughing at her rather than cheering her on, whatever their racial background.

Still, her presence on our televisions and in our magazines is a negative influence. But in a society where attitudes and behaviours to the contrary are seen as stuck up, we end up stuck with it. I would rather my daughter took almost any other woman as her role model, than JG.....even Seeks, heaven forfend, a black woman LOL!

I guess though its a working class thing isnt it? To regard education, aspiration, manners, talent and ability as getting above yourself. JG is the perfect role model for such a view. "Tungsten carbide drills? What the bloody 'ells tungsten carbide drills?"

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 94

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 8:42:19 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: I believe that your 80% stat. regarding the number of stupid people present in any given society cannot possibly be true due to the way physical/mental attributes are distributed in humans. But that is not my central criticism in this thread and I suspect you know it.

You are misunderstanding what I mean by stupid and stupidity, which are only slightly correlated with lack of intelligence.

Being stupid in the context I am using it, is behaving in a way which celebrates and extolls the lowest human achievements, behaviours and attitudes as being worthy of reward and recognition, in place of the highest ideals.

One could score in the 90s on an IQ test, and yet not be judged stupid in this context, because stupidity depends on attitude and behaviour rather than inherent intelligence. The reverse also applies.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 95

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 8:53:47 AM

popeye1250

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There was no "race card" to be played here.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 96

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 9:07:15 AM

LadyEllen

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Exactly Popeye.

Though it seems to have turned into a discussion of race and racism by some, and a discussion of elitism vs troglodytism by others, with a diversion into the nature of intelligence vs stupidity.

But then in a world in which the US President qualifies as ignorant and stupid, and our PM endorses and follows him, maybe its me thats out of place.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 97

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 11:07:34 AM

seeksfemslave

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Its no good LadyE I know that you know that I was right and you were wrong but
I still forgive you....he he he he he and one more he

Rationalise rationalise rationalise,
whether it is nobler to rationalise than to admit error,
that is the question !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/21/2007 11:13:55 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 98

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 11:56:20 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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I am more than prepared to admit to error Seeks. Except in this instance I see none.

Perhaps you would be good enough to tell me straight, that is without vague references and odd metaphorical musings, where my error in this case might lie?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 99

RE: Racism on Big Brother (UK) - 1/21/2007 3:05:57 PM

poplolly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I find it nauseating in the extreme to be lectured about cultural tolerance by people from India, a hotbed of murderous prejudice and discrimination if ever there was one.

Who brought up the "race card"??? Respectfully, Seeks, I think your argument has become extemporaneous (provided, made, or put to use as an expedient; makeshift. [again from www.dictionary.com]).

_____________________________

"I am selfish, impatient, and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control, and at times hard to handle, but if you can't ACCEPT me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best!"
~~ Marilyn Monroe.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 100

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