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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 2:11:54 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Czech has the right to do what it wants but its neighbours have the right not to like their decisions that raise the tensions in the locality.

If they want to be part of the EU and the EU had a common defence policy it would eliminate tensions created by countries like Britain who constantly undermine unity in the EU by favouring US policies. Actually I think countries like Britain ought to decide if they are part of Europe or the 51st state.


I don't think anyone is keeping anyone from not liking it.
 
At least your position is clear ... you have to tow the anti-EU line, to be part of the EU ... a position that is exactly what you accuse us of ... except you are militarily weak, and we are not.
 
Color me Euro-Shocked.  

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 3:21:34 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

At least your position is clear ... you have to tow the anti-EU line, to be part of the EU ... a position that is exactly what you accuse us of ... except you are militarily weak, and we are not.
 
Color me Euro-Shocked.  


Your military strength is doing well for you in the middle east. Having the ability to bomb someone back to the stone age doesn't mean you can win a war, you just win barren land, a hostile population and create more terrorists.

As for being anti-EU, there is no such thing since the EU doesn't have a common defence policy which is part of the problem. I'm all for a united Europe and Europe looking after its own defence so we do not have to compromise European policies or European territory. Unfortunately there are governments like Blair's that are willing to humiliate themselves in order to dance in idiot Bush's shadow.

But as Dtesmoac suggested. Let the US play their superpower roll and let us continue to have universal healthcare for Europeans.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/22/2007 3:22:23 PM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 3:28:39 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Europe will always be dependant on the US. Thats never going to change.
In fact there are some economic experts in Europe who are growing very concerned that the Euro will collapse in as little as 20 years since there is nothing really backing it up. There is also serious problems developming with the healthcare systems. They were good at first, but they dont seem to be working real well with expanding populations with a high unemployment. Someone I know from Germany said that their mother had to wait over a month for a heart bypass. In the United States, they can do that operation in a matter of hours. The education systems are also having problems. Even though higher education is free over there, many are still paying money to come to American universities.

Europe also will be putting itself out on a limb if it trys to get into economic competition with the US. It will not serve their interest to break away from the US. Doing that will cause a split in the western bloc. And that would make Russia and China very happy governments.
I know there is some anti-Americanism in Europe. But those people represent a very small, but vocal portion of the population. And Americans are welcome in Europe. The French hate the US government, but they love Americans that come to Paris to spend money. Europe also understands that the US has term limits for its presidency and that Bush is not only a lame-duck, but will be gone in 2 years.


There is more backing up the Euro than the dollar and as for healthcare, universal European healthcare costs half of what the average American pays for healthcare because you pay for private profits, bureacracy and unnecessary hi-tech healthcare. You are encouraged to use healthcare to cure rather than to prevent illness which is far more expensive.

The argument isn't about anti or pro Americanism but Europe looking after itself, something which American administrations are schizophrenic about. They want Europe to spend more on defence but they don't want to compromise its own leadership. It can't have both, maybe we should just take the healthcare.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/22/2007 3:31:47 PM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 3:40:41 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I wouldnt mind betting that the US base in the Czech Republic upsets the Slovaks, just as much as the Russians.

Yet again, they get the shorter straw in the post Czechoslovakian situation.

Having been many times to the Czech Republic and to Slovakia, the difference is enormous. The Czechs have pretty much a vibrant country that is more and more westernised every time I go (roughly every 3 months). The Slovaks meanwhile seem stuck in the communist era. Whilst Prague is a top flight city, Bratislava is a dump, and thats putting it sympathetically.

I'm sure the Slovaks would have loved to have received all that inward investment and the ongoing economic benefits of a US base.

Mind you that would be even closer to the Russians.

E

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 4:01:46 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Europe will always be dependant on the US. Thats never going to change.
In fact there are some economic experts in Europe who are growing very concerned that the Euro will collapse in as little as 20 years since there is nothing really backing it up. There is also serious problems developming with the healthcare systems. They were good at first, but they dont seem to be working real well with expanding populations with a high unemployment. Someone I know from Germany said that their mother had to wait over a month for a heart bypass. In the United States, they can do that operation in a matter of hours. The education systems are also having problems. Even though higher education is free over there, many are still paying money to come to American universities.

Europe also will be putting itself out on a limb if it trys to get into economic competition with the US. It will not serve their interest to break away from the US. Doing that will cause a split in the western bloc. And that would make Russia and China very happy governments.
I know there is some anti-Americanism in Europe. But those people represent a very small, but vocal portion of the population. And Americans are welcome in Europe. The French hate the US government, but they love Americans that come to Paris to spend money. Europe also understands that the US has term limits for its presidency and that Bush is not only a lame-duck, but will be gone in 2 years.


There is more backing up the Euro than the dollar and as for healthcare, universal European healthcare costs half of what the average American pays for healthcare because you pay for private profits, bureacracy and unnecessary hi-tech healthcare. You are encouraged to use healthcare to cure rather than to prevent illness which is far more expensive.

The argument isn't about anti or pro Americanism but Europe looking after itself, something which American administrations are schizophrenic about. They want Europe to spend more on defence but they don't want to compromise its own leadership. It can't have both, maybe we should just take the healthcare.


What is backing up the Euro other than 28 weak economies each having a double-digit unemployment rate? Some of them have zero growth.

As for healthcare, the US system is bad. But Europe's system is just as bad, just in a different way. Everyone has healthcare but the quality is poor and the speed of getting healthcare is very slow. Maybe it is better than nothing for the poor guy that cant rub two dimes together, but people who have money will always have better healthcare than the poor. The best doctors and hospitals in Europe charge a lot more money than the government is willing to pay. You can sit there and praise Europe's system all you want, but when it takes a month to get life-saving heart surgury, something is wrong with the system. Very wrong!

And I am in total and complete disagreement with their education system. Their education system sounds more like what the Soviet Union had than what a western democracy should have.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 5:17:20 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The argument isn't about anti or pro Americanism but Europe looking after itself, something which American administrations are schizophrenic about. They want Europe to spend more on defence but they don't want to compromise its own leadership. It can't have both, maybe we should just take the healthcare.


Lets just speak bluntly ...
 
When has Europe ever shown that it can get along and take care of anything?
 
Have you considered that what you see as schizophrenic, we see as practical?
 
I mean ... get real ... you guys lecturing us about involvement in Iraq, or Czechoslovakia, or anywhere else for that matter ... is almost funny.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 6:11:38 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The argument isn't about anti or pro Americanism but Europe looking after itself, something which American administrations are schizophrenic about. They want Europe to spend more on defence but they don't want to compromise its own leadership. It can't have both, maybe we should just take the healthcare.


Lets just speak bluntly ...
 
When has Europe ever shown that it can get along and take care of anything?
 
Have you considered that what you see as schizophrenic, we see as practical?
 
I mean ... get real ... you guys lecturing us about involvement in Iraq, or Czechoslovakia, or anywhere else for that matter ... is almost funny.




But ... but .. but .... caitlyn!!!! ... don't you know that European are just so much more civilized, intelligent and ... well ...  cultured.  As our betters, they deserve to tell us how to run not only our own country, but the rest of the world.

After all, they have so much more experience than we do with that sort of thing. 

FirmKY



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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 6:33:46 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Yeah, those NAZIS were real "civilised" alright.
Those Czeck babes are hot though!
Hey, what do you say we have the E.U. handle Iran?

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/22/2007 7:19:36 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		It's not really a question of being civilized ... or not ... or more ... or less.
 
European countries have a long history with each other, often glorious and mostly violent. It's fine to say that they will get along and defend themselves ... times are good, and the U.S. 7th Army is close at hand. What if things were not so good, and we weren't around? Historically, what Europe mostly needs to defend themselves from, is other Europeans.
 
It's not that America is better ... we aren't ... but, we also don't have these age old hatreds, like our friends in Europe. Europeans want Americans to see themselves for what they really are ... ok, fine ... turn that back on yourself. You guys over there, can't decide what side you're on, change sides at the drop of a hat ... and every time there is trouble, those ago-old hatreds show up ... before long, genocide is seen as a real option.
 
Europeans defending Europe is a bad idea ... a bad idea now, and a bad idea in our lifetime. How about, try to make it through one century without dragging half the planet into your conflicts ... then we will talk. 

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 3:20:47 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The argument isn't about anti or pro Americanism but Europe looking after itself, something which American administrations are schizophrenic about. They want Europe to spend more on defence but they don't want to compromise its own leadership. It can't have both, maybe we should just take the healthcare.


Lets just speak bluntly ...
 
When has Europe ever shown that it can get along and take care of anything?
 
Have you considered that what you see as schizophrenic, we see as practical?
 
I mean ... get real ... you guys lecturing us about involvement in Iraq, or Czechoslovakia, or anywhere else for that matter ... is almost funny.


If the US does something it is for its own self interest. There is nothing wrong with that but don't pretend the US is an altruistic institution, its presence in Europe is primarily for its own defence and not Europe's, unfortunately too many Europeans don't see that.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 3:23:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY




But ... but .. but .... caitlyn!!!! ... don't you know that European are just so much more civilized, intelligent and ... well ...  cultured.  As our betters, they deserve to tell us how to run not only our own country, but the rest of the world.

After all, they have so much more experience than we do with that sort of thing. 

FirmKY


There is a lot of American art, literature, film and music I like and think is great and world class but if I had to choose between European and American, I'd choose European every time, simply because taken as a whole it is superior.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/23/2007 3:28:03 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 3:26:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's not really a question of being civilized ... or not ... or more ... or less.
 
European countries have a long history with each other, often glorious and mostly violent. It's fine to say that they will get along and defend themselves ... times are good, and the U.S. 7th Army is close at hand. What if things were not so good, and we weren't around? Historically, what Europe mostly needs to defend themselves from, is other Europeans.
 
It's not that America is better ... we aren't ... but, we also don't have these age old hatreds, like our friends in Europe. Europeans want Americans to see themselves for what they really are ... ok, fine ... turn that back on yourself. You guys over there, can't decide what side you're on, change sides at the drop of a hat ... and every time there is trouble, those ago-old hatreds show up ... before long, genocide is seen as a real option.
 
Europeans defending Europe is a bad idea ... a bad idea now, and a bad idea in our lifetime. How about, try to make it through one century without dragging half the planet into your conflicts ... then we will talk. 


Europe might have a violent imperial history, the US has a violent imperial present. The US is the empire that dare not speak its name but empire it is.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 5:37:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611


What is backing up the Euro other than 28 weak economies each having a double-digit unemployment rate? Some of them have zero growth.


The first thing you have got wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
As for healthcare, the US system is bad. But Europe's system is just as bad, just in a different way. Everyone has healthcare but the quality is poor and the speed of getting healthcare is very slow. Maybe it is better than nothing for the poor guy that cant rub two dimes together, but people who have money will always have better healthcare than the poor. The best doctors and hospitals in Europe charge a lot more money than the government is willing to pay. You can sit there and praise Europe's system all you want, but when it takes a month to get life-saving heart surgury, something is wrong with the system. Very wrong!


I'm wondering how many hospitals in Europe you have been treated in to come out with that statement, obviously not many. However, I can't give a definitive answer to this because the situation changes from country to country. The situation is bound to be better in a rich country like Germany and is than one that has just joined the EU like Rumania which is very poor but still has a creditable health service. All emergency care is free for all EU citizens in all EU countries. The best will give the best in the US a run for its money. As for your 'it takes a month to get heart surgery' that is such a meaningless statement. It all depends what the surgery is and if it is immediately necessary. Not all heart conditions mean you are in danger of collapsing at any second.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
And I am in total and complete disagreement with their education system. Their education system sounds more like what the Soviet Union had than what a western democracy should have.


Again, there is no common education system in Europe so to dismiss it as sounding more like the Soviet Union is just showing your ignorance. Actually if you talk to people who were brought up in the USSR, their education system was obviously not bad, at least for some but then the US's education system isn't bad for some.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 6:09:23 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


Europe might have a violent imperial history, the US has a violent imperial present. The US is the empire that dare not speak its name but empire it is.


Yes. it does sort of make one splutter to be rebuked for genocide, wars of agression, imperialism, diplomatic stitch up jobs and internecine conflict by the USA.

But every country acts for its own interests, and thats the way it always will be I'd venture. None is better or worse than any others in this regard, and especially none can claim holier than thou status.

We can look at governments past and present and make value judgements about their conduct; in the end, even the nazis were acting in what they thought were Germany's interests, even given the odious nature of the way they went about it. But there is little room for morality when it comes to protecting interests and especially not when extending interests.

So all this sniping back and forth is stupid really. Whatever any country does or is doing, some other country has been there before or would if it had the chance.

More humorously, that we Europeans are so awful.....is this why the USA is going about things in the world the way we did in former times? Or is it rather, that we did it so well, that we are worthy of emulation?

E



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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:01:12 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		A good response Lady Ellen.
 
I don't really think anyone is rebuking Europeans for being imperialistic ... more like telling specific Europeans to get off their high horse. Europe isn't an imperial power now, and the Unites States is. As much as people like meatcleaver want to convince people that it's for altruistic reasons ... the historical proof is that the only reason Europe isn't an imperial power, is that she is too weak to be one right now.
 
The only think Europe has ever done for the world, is try to help herself to it. There is no reason for anyone in this world, to ever trust Europe to act in anything other than her own best interest.
 
The United States is no better ... we are just today's version. There is no reason for anyone in this world, to ever trust America to act in anything other than her own best interest.
 
People like meatcleaver seem to want the Soviets back. Geesh, at least we let you have cable.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:07:02 AM   
JohnSteed1967


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Status: offline 		Jumping into the water with out really looking......

I do see Russia's fear which is at some point in time America get's pissed at us we are toast. I see America's desire we can launch missiles into Iran from a distance.

now slightly jumping off the logic train, every last bit of what they US is doing is 10000% about securing the oil of the middle east and fucking everyone else

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:17:25 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

More humorously, that we Europeans are so awful.....is this why the USA is going about things in the world the way we did in former times? Or is it rather, that we did it so well, that we are worthy of emulation?



One can only live in the present and learn from the past.

Is the fact that genocide happened in Europe (and also the USA) a reason for Europeans to ignore genocide in the present?

Is it fine to say, well we had our turn at fucking up the world, now its your turn?

Actually, this thread was about Europe having its own defence policy or not rather than individual members of the EU creating tension with conflicting policies. In this case Czech but earlier Britain's lap dog approach to the US which undermines EU initiatives.

Perhaps Britain really ought to apply to become the 51st State, after all that is what it is known for in Europe.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:20:13 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver



The last thing Europe needs to is buy into US paranoia


But that's our most marketable commodity.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:20:45 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967
now slightly jumping off the logic train, every last bit of what they US is doing is 10000% about securing the oil of the middle east and fucking everyone else


I agree ... 10000%  

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:21:05 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


The United States is no better ... we are just today's version. There is no reason for anyone in this world, to ever trust America to act in anything other than her own best interest.
 
People like meatcleaver seem to want the Soviets back. Geesh, at least we let you have cable.


Having spent fairly lengthy stays in both the US and Russia, its surprising how much alike they both are. Zealously patriotic, flags flying everywhere, uniforms everywhere, deferent to authority.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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