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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:38:49 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

When the Dutch start putting their necks out on the line, then maybe the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. will start to care about their opinion.

?????????????

Well the Dutch might only be a small country with a small military but it does have troops in Afghanistan which is my point, Americans won't know and don't care if we are an allie other than to give them diplomatic cover. US troops don't even know the British flag so they aren't going to know anyone elses which makes Afghanistan dangerous for Europeans because they could be shot at by both the Taliban and US troops or at least have been.

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Post #: 61

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:44:35 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

You do realize that you are hilarious once we get you all wound up - LOL

I don't exactly agree with your positions, but it'd be alot more boring without your posts to liven things up.

Aaaahhhh, I've exorcised my demons - I feel so much better now.

I luv ya man, but ... we're #1, we're #1, we're #1 - LOL (Sorry, just can't help myself sometimes ;-D)

Oooh, almost forgot ... Bush is full of shit; but I do believe that is the basic requirement of any politician ;-)

< Message edited by ToGiveDivine -- 1/23/2007 8:45:28 AM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:53:44 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
France and Germany would be the first to join forces

You can stop right there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

ahhh, just what the world needs, another Franco-German-Italian axis.

Also, I'm still waiting for an answer from meat about what he thinks the definition of a "rational policy" actually is.

FirmKY

_____________________________

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Post #: 63

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:04:04 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

FAST REPLY:

I'm just trying to figure out what the Czech Republic has that we need.

Everyone thinks we are in Iraq for Oil ... silly fools. We are there for the sand!!!!

We Americans just LOVE our leisure time (which is why we are all so overweight) and we love to visit the beach, but our beaches are being washed away so we need a new source of sand - therefore, IRAQ!!!!

Oh yeah, we want you all to think we are there for the oil, but we are undermining the world's sand market. You think all those oil tankers leaving Iraq have oil??!?! Iraq's oil production is way down, those tankers are loaded with sand for our relaxing beaches.

Oh yes, we've cornered the market and our beach front property is going to explode!! You may think Bush the fool, but he's a highly skilled Sand Baron and all of you are out of the loop.

Hee Hee Hee

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Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

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Post #: 64

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:07:43 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Yup, it's the Sand!
And what is it with these strange European Holidays?
"It's St. Clemment's day, they come at night and put a sausage under your pillow."

(in reply to ToGiveDivine)

Post #: 65

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:10:11 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Like MC, (I believe), I am a fan of the EU, and I think its time it got a common foreign and defence policy and stepped up to the plate in terms of producing armed forces capable of making a significant contribution in the general western alliance.

I dont see this as competing with the US - merely taking a fair share for once, of the burden. I also dont see it as any reason whereby the general western alliance should be prejudiced.

BUT. The problem with the EU is, and always has been for us in the UK and I believe for many of the new member states, France, which seems to feel that EU policy and presumably would also think EU forces, belong entirely under their remit, just as they now seem to feel that they are permitted to breach any EU law they like and get away with it, whilst prosecuting others for lesser offences and maintaining a strong grip over agricultural subsidies for their inefficient farmers whilst denying dirt poor farmers in the new states of the money.

This French grip on things, is one definite reason why there cannot be a common EU defence and foreign policy, for the French view seems to be, if it doesnt affect France then it doesnt matter, and that almost anything is nothing to do with them. Imagine then, a whole EU policy and a sizeable armed forces with the same basis. There would be no point in either, since the policy would be one of disinterest (gallic shrug) and the forces would be impotently sitting in barracks unless French interests were threatened.

For conspiracy theorists out there, one could perhaps also propose that the US likes it the way things are now, since the EU relies so heavily on the US via NATO, that it guarantees ongoing US presence and influence. I say thank goodness the US forces are here, as otherwise we'd all be singing the Marseillaise. But in the end, the US are our allies and it would be only natural to have some of their troops here, (and our troops with them), and overall I am sure the US would rather forego a little influence in favour of saving some of the considerable expense of making up for the EU states' lack of interest in providing for their own defence?

E

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Post #: 66

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:11:32 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

FAST REPLY:

I'm just trying to figure out what the Czech Republic has that we need.

Youve clearly never seen any Czech girls, TGD!

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 67

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:14:38 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

FAST REPLY:

I'm just trying to figure out what the Czech Republic has that we need.

Youve clearly never seen any Czech girls, TGD!

E

No I haven't, but the British ones aren't bad ;-P

< Message edited by ToGiveDivine -- 1/23/2007 9:30:00 AM >

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

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Post #: 68

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:29:24 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

For conspiracy theorists out there, one could perhaps also propose that the US likes it the way things are now, since the EU relies so heavily on the US via NATO, that it guarantees ongoing US presence and influence. I say thank goodness the US forces are here, as otherwise we'd all be singing the Marseillaise. But in the end, the US are our allies and it would be only natural to have some of their troops here, (and our troops with them), and overall I am sure the US would rather forego a little influence in favour of saving some of the considerable expense of making up for the EU states' lack of interest in providing for their own defence?

E

What I don't understand is that the EU is made up of some pretty powerful Superpowers of the past and collectively could become a Superpower of the future. There is no question that the countries of the EU have stood up in the face of adversity over and over and over again; but it's like they've decided to (for lack of a better word) give up and let the U.S. handle things.

Sure, after WWII, Europe was in shambles and needed time to rebuild and get back on their feet and the U.S. was there for it's allies in their time of need. (Maybe later than you wanted and maybe there too much towards the end), but we were there nonetheless.

Now, the European economies have bounced back and collectively in the EU, their economies not only rival the U.S., but probably exceeds us. The problem to me seems that centuries of animosity amongst the countries of Europe (let's face it, you all spent loads of time kicking each other's butt) haven't fully healed in the 60 years since WWII - even if you are getting along better now than anytime in your past.

And yes, the French have a very optimistic opinion of themselves and if there was ever a deal crusher, it would be them. They aren't very good at their word and really ungrateful to pretty much everyone.

The French aside, the EU could eliminate the need for NATO, which barely has a reason to continue at this point, but that would require Europe to adjust some of their GDP to the military in order to replace the U.S. presence. With the current climate, I don't see that as a reality.

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

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Post #: 69

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:37:54 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine
I'm just trying to figure out what the Czech Republic has that we need.

That's an easy one. It's a two part answer involving a letter and a number.

The letter is 'F' ... and the number is '22.'

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 1/23/2007 9:38:23 AM >

(in reply to ToGiveDivine)

Post #: 70

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 9:49:23 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
France and Germany would be the first to join forces

You can stop right there.

You know what they say about Americans in many parts of Europe?

Americans are English speaking Germans.

_____________________________

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Post #: 71

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 10:04:37 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

What I don't understand is that the EU is made up of some pretty powerful Superpowers of the past and collectively could become a Superpower of the future. There is no question that the countries of the EU have stood up in the face of adversity over and over and over again; but it's like they've decided to (for lack of a better word) give up and let the U.S. handle things.

Believe me. The US government prefers it this way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Sure, after WWII, Europe was in shambles and needed time to rebuild and get back on their feet and the U.S. was there for it's allies in their time of need. (Maybe later than you wanted and maybe there too much towards the end), but we were there nonetheless.

A pacifist constitution was forced on the Germans after the war and despite the US wanting Germany to be more active now, the German people have grown to like their pacifist constitution and there is little their politicians can do about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine
Now, the European economies have bounced back and collectively in the EU, their economies not only rival the U.S., but probably exceeds us. The problem to me seems that centuries of animosity amongst the countries of Europe (let's face it, you all spent loads of time kicking each other's butt) haven't fully healed in the 60 years since WWII - even if you are getting along better now than anytime in your past.

And yes, the French have a very optimistic opinion of themselves and if there was ever a deal crusher, it would be them. They aren't very good at their word and really ungrateful to pretty much everyone.

The French won the US its independence!

France not keeping its word is a matter of perception. From France it looks like Britain constantly undermines the EU in favour of the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

The French aside, the EU could eliminate the need for NATO, which barely has a reason to continue at this point, but that would require Europe to adjust some of their GDP to the military in order to replace the U.S. presence. With the current climate, I don't see that as a reality.

The EU wouldn't have to replace that much, since the end of the cold war much of the US's presence in Europe is for business outside Europe. Most people who want a European military want it for the defence of Europe and its immediate environs and not to project military power around the world. I doubt there are many Europeans who are delusional enough to want a new European imperial age.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 72

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 10:31:24 AM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

MC,

So far you've been insulting towards the Germans, British, Czechs, and Americans - but you seem to have a love affair with the French and the U.N.

Maybe, just maybe, it's people who are like you that are causing the EU to NOT become what it could be. Does it make you feel better about yourself when you put other people down?

Sure, the countries in Europe and America bicker and squabble amongst ourselves; but that doesn't mean there is the hatred you espouse in practically every post you write.

You said, "France helped the U.S. win our Independence". True, very true ... and I'm sure it wasn't because of any self-interest they had for themselves either?!?! Of course, if the only example you have of the French being kind to the U.S. is over 200 years old, then your point loses some weight.

There are alot of American, British, and Canadian soldiers buried in Normandy who helped the French win back their Independence roughly 60 years ago and the French have thumbed their noses at all of us pretty much since then.

So, it's pretty clear you hate the U.S. - from the sound of it you hate every American as well. You seem to feel you are a far superior being to pretty much everyone else - hmmmm, so did Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Mussolini, etc. - some of Europe's finest "cultural" examples.

Your intolerance to everything that doesn't fit your warped vision of how things should be is disturbing. Every country has done some pretty horrible things to their neighbors and it all started with attitudes like you've been espousing.

You insinuated that Europeans think Americans are English speaking Germans - you're the only one I see goose-stepping around here lately.

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 73

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 11:04:27 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

But ... ahhh ... ToGive ... his is more cultured, has better intentions, and is ... well ... just a better person than us ignorant, narrow-minded, greedy, low-life Americans, don'tcha know?

FirmKY

_____________________________

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Post #: 74

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 11:06:31 AM

sleazy

Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
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I am wondering how anyone can expect the EU to come up with a common defence policy or force? Even forgetting that the French blockade streets (contrary to EU law), the spanish only respect spanish terriorial waters (contrary to international as well as EU law) and of course lets not forget the old joke that Italian tanks have more reverse gears than foward. Bear in mind that when British soveriegn territory was invaded not one other signatory to NATO offered much in the way of assistance.

Do people really think if say Poland was attacked that the Portuguese would actually give a damn? If not even trade treaties can be realistically obeyed or enforced what chance does any form of military treaty have?

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Post #: 75

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 12:09:19 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

There are alot of American, British, and Canadian soldiers buried in Normandy who helped the French win back their Independence roughly 60 years ago and the French have thumbed their noses at all of us pretty much since then.

So, it's pretty clear you hate the U.S. - from the sound of it you hate every American as well. You seem to feel you are a far superior being to pretty much everyone else - hmmmm, so did Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Mussolini, etc. - some of Europe's finest "cultural" examples.

Your intolerance to everything that doesn't fit your warped vision of how things should be is disturbing. Every country has done some pretty horrible things to their neighbors and it all started with attitudes like you've been espousing.

You insinuated that Europeans think Americans are English speaking Germans - you're the only one I see goose-stepping around here lately.

I don't hate the US but the US wouldn't let a European country or any other country have a base on its territory, never mind one that creates tension amongst its neighbours.

I could give you a list of Americans too that are hardly credit to the human race.

As for Americans being English speaking Germans, the biggest American European ethnic group is German.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 76

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 12:15:56 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I am wondering how anyone can expect the EU to come up with a common defence policy or force? Even forgetting that the French blockade streets (contrary to EU law), the spanish only respect spanish terriorial waters (contrary to international as well as EU law) and of course lets not forget the old joke that Italian tanks have more reverse gears than foward. Bear in mind that when British soveriegn territory was invaded not one other signatory to NATO offered much in the way of assistance.

Nor forgetting the British army that only responds to American orders?

Why would anyone want to fight over a few rocks in the South Atlantic? I'm not even sure why we sent a task force down there, we telegraphed Argentina we didn't care about them by retiring a clapped out boat that visited there once a month or whatever. The only reason we went to war was because we had a Prime Minister in the deep shit who needed to distract the attention of the dumb masses because she had seriously fucked up the economy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Do people really think if say Poland was attacked that the Portuguese would actually give a damn? If not even trade treaties can be realistically obeyed or enforced what chance does any form of military treaty have?

If you have a common defence then yes, which is the whole point and since both are in NATO it would happen anyway.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/23/2007 12:19:13 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 77

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 12:22:01 PM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

The new EU Armed Forces

Infantry; French - there's plenty of them and theyre reliable - ("They come on in the same old way") and should be OK anyway given that they'll be behind.....
The Armoured Corps; German & Austrian run; hell, they know how to run Panzers after all. As long as they dont tangle with the Russians that is
Navy; British & Irish run - whatever anyone says, we're the best in Europe at this ships thing
Catering Corps; Italian run - only problem being, all our forces would be overweight from excellent food
Medical Corps; Spanish & Portugese run - not that theyre particularly good at medical, but they have to have a job somewhere and pretty nurses are important to soldiers' recovery, or so some sexist soldier once told me
Transport Corps; the Dutch, Belgians and Letzeburghers - they run a lot of Europe's goods transport anyway, so it makes sense
Air Force; Danes and Swedes, since they seem about the most level headed of all Europeans, except when theyre drunk, which is fairly often. Plus which the Saab aircraft are made in Sweden
Signals & Communications Corps - the Finns. Any nation that comes up with Nokia phones has to do signals and communications
Administration; this is a problem. We'd need to get the Swiss involved, since theyre the only people in Europe more obstreperous than the French and can even get the French to do as theyre told
Paratroops & Special Forces; Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians - most of them are nutters to start with, which brings down the need for selection and training

and the rest? Well, I'm sure we can find something for them to do. Hell, do I have to organise everything around here?

E Rommel

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 78

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 12:23:14 PM

ToGiveDivine

Posts: 650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

There are alot of American, British, and Canadian soldiers buried in Normandy who helped the French win back their Independence roughly 60 years ago and the French have thumbed their noses at all of us pretty much since then.

So, it's pretty clear you hate the U.S. - from the sound of it you hate every American as well. You seem to feel you are a far superior being to pretty much everyone else - hmmmm, so did Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Mussolini, etc. - some of Europe's finest "cultural" examples.

Your intolerance to everything that doesn't fit your warped vision of how things should be is disturbing. Every country has done some pretty horrible things to their neighbors and it all started with attitudes like you've been espousing.

You insinuated that Europeans think Americans are English speaking Germans - you're the only one I see goose-stepping around here lately.

I don't hate the US but the US wouldn't let a European country or any other country have a base on its territory, never mind one that creates tension amongst its neighbours.

I could give you a list of Americans too that are hardly credit to the human race.

As for Americans being English speaking Germans, the biggest American European ethnic group is German.

Why would any other Country want a base here? There's not a whole lot going on in this hemisphere that we couldn't handle and would require other countries forces to be based here. Besides, other countries would just be gouged for the land.

We have bases over there because that's where things are happening. We are a main reason you aren't speaking Russian. It doesn't hurt to have a big dog in your backyard to keep unwelcomed guests out. We don't force other countries to take or keep our bases. France told us to get out, we left.

Being a monster isn't limited to a nationality, race, ethnic group, religion, etc. You have been implying that Europeans are far more culturally advanced than the U.S. We just have a different culture that you don't understand, so you choose to be intolerant of things you can't comprehend.

Being German isn't the same thing as being a Nazi as you were implying.

_____________________________

These are my opinions - which may differ from your opinions. They may be right and just as equally wrong.

Beware, author is often sarcastic in his replies - most often, no sincere offense is intended.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 79

RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 12:29:29 PM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Being a monster isn't limited to a nationality, race, ethnic group, religion, etc. You have been implying that Europeans are far more culturally advanced than the U.S. We just have a different culture that you don't understand, so you choose to be intolerant of things you can't comprehend.

No. If you read the opening post I was suggesting the EU should get its own defence policy rather than have US or any other nations troops onits territory causing tension. That was taken by some as being anti-American and things get bad tempered from there.

I still don't see why Europe shouldn't get its own defence force but that means those Europeans believing in that policy persuading other Europeans that it is the right thing to do. 60 years after the war and expecting Europe to defend itself is not a lot to ask for. I think its pretty damning of Europeans that so many still rather rely on the US for their defence.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/23/2007 12:30:20 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 80

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