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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:23:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Yes. it does sort of make one splutter to be rebuked for genocide, wars of agression, imperialism, diplomatic stitch up jobs and internecine conflict by the USA.


Just as it makes one sputter for the US to be rebuked for genocide, wars of aggression, imperialism, diplomatic stitch up jobs and internecine conflicts by Europeans. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

But every country acts for its own interests, and thats the way it always will be I'd venture. None is better or worse than any others in this regard, and especially none can claim holier than thou status.

We can look at governments past and present and make value judgements about their conduct; in the end, even the nazis were acting in what they thought were Germany's interests, even given the odious nature of the way they went about it. But there is little room for morality when it comes to protecting interests and especially not when extending interests.

So all this sniping back and forth is stupid really. Whatever any country does or is doing, some other country has been there before or would if it had the chance.

More humorously, that we Europeans are so awful.....is this why the USA is going about things in the world the way we did in former times? Or is it rather, that we did it so well, that we are worthy of emulation?


Truer words I've rarely seen "spoken" here on CM when it comes to political discussions.

I forget who said it (Churchill?), but nations don't have "friends", they have "interests".

"Interests" and the ability to further those interests through force or bribery are the mainstays of international politics.  This can seem cold and calculating to individuals who attempt to project individual morality on nation-states, and this anthropomorphization of nation-states and their actions is one of the key confusions that people have when discussing and debating international politics.

It's an easy analogy to make, and useful at times, but fraught with the possibility of deception.

A commonality of interests on the world stage makes for "friends".  Because of cultural and political world-views that are more similar than different, the US and Europe have been "friends".  The greater cultural and political world-views between the US and the UK has made these two nations even "closer friends".

What I find humorous about many European's condemnation of the US is the fact that - for the most part - our interests have been shared in bringing about a world in which there is a high level of reliance on norms ("laws"), in which disputes can be adjudicated through peaceful means.

The US, since WWII has been the primary architect of a world system in which reliance on laws govern international relations.

But, "laws" are based on the ability and willingness to use force.

Europe has built a system based on an international environment in which the final arbiter of force has been the US.  Without this environment, the European reliance on "diplomacy" would likely falter, and the "internecine conflict" normal to international relations would likely return.

Does this mean that the US should "get a pass" on all things?  No, of course not.  But the truth is that there is currently no other international force that has both the ability, the crediblity or the historical precedence of actions that is reassuring enough to be "trusted" with protecting a world in which democratic based nations can thrive and prosper.

So, when Europeans take on a "holier than thou" type of attitude, I grimly and humorously contemplate a world in which they get their wish of a withdrawn and isolationalist US of A.

The thought crosses my mind: "Be careful of what you ask for.  You just might get it."

FirmKY


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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:24:58 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, but they don't have websites where people can look for American brides.
 
AND ... we lead the world in actual comfortable hotels.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:27:20 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		How much for this girl?

Vladamir Tepisch

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/23/2007 7:28:23 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:32:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

There is a lot of American art, literature, film and music I like and think is great and world class but if I had to choose between European and American, I'd choose European every time, simply because taken as a whole it is superior.


meat,

There is nothing wrong with preferring your own culture above others.  That's normal and good.

But don't you see, that with statements like I've highlighted above, you are showing your own cultural prejudices, just as you accuse Americans of doing?

This attitude was exactly my point in my satire post about Europeans being "more cultured".

FirmKY


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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:41:59 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		You said I bet he thinks Europe is more cultured. I simply answered if I had to choose I would choose European because it is best and until the US has had a Shakepeare, Wagner, Rembrandt, Picasso, Mozart etc, it will remain that way.
 
As for popular culture, its difficult to assess that because it is so relative one just likes what one likes.



< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/23/2007 7:45:53 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:42:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is the fact that genocide happened in Europe (and also the USA) a reason for Europeans to ignore genocide in the present?


Europeans have and are ignoring genocide in the present, my friend.

Who was it that stopped the genocides in the former Yugoslavia?  Which European nation's soldiers stood by, and allowed refugees to be massacred before the US stepped in?

Who was the primary European actor in encouraging the Rwandian genocide?

Which European countries are making any effort to stop the genocide in Dafur?

Now, tell me which genocide the US has been responsible for lately?

"Mote ... beam ... eye."

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:52:00 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is the fact that genocide happened in Europe (and also the USA) a reason for Europeans to ignore genocide in the present?


Europeans have and are ignoring genocide in the present, my friend.

Who was it that stopped the genocides in the former Yugoslavia?  Which European nation's soldiers stood by, and allowed refugees to be massacred before the US stepped in?



The US has consistently opposed any real power being given to UN troops. The Dutch were lightly armed UN troops with a UN mandate that is so watered down to be meaningless. The Dutch wee censured by their parliament but I doubt Americans would have done anything if it was their lives or someone elses. In fact you said as much yourself in another thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Who was the primary European actor in encouraging the Rwandian genocide?

Which European countries are making any effort to stop the genocide in Dafur?

Now, tell me which genocide the US has been responsible for lately?

"Mote ... beam ... eye."

FirmKY



I didn't say the US has been responsible for a genocide lately. I implied the US is as guilty as Europe of a genocide.

The US isn't doing anything about Darfur either.

If you are talking about the French in Rwanda, it certainly looks like they have got something to answer for.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 7:54:50 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		One of the reasons I am opposed to US bases in EU countries is because then Europe would have to have a coherent policy rather than being divided and ruled by the US.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:00:45 AM   
ToGiveDivine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The US has consistently opposed any real power being given to UN troops. The Dutch were lightly armed UN troops with a UN mandate that is so watered down to be meaningless. The Dutch wee censured by their parliament but I doubt Americans would have done anything if it was their lives or someone elses. In fact you said as much yourself in another thread.

Giving the UN any real power is like giving the Keystone Cops any real power.


The US isn't doing anything about Darfur either.

Why aren't the Dutch sending troops to Darfur.  What is your country waiting for?  Do you need a mandate from the U.N. to do the right thing?

And why is it always the responsibility of the U.S. to send peace keepers when no one else seems to want to step up to the plate?  The U.S. has roughly 5% of the population but comprises over 50% of any peace keeping force (and sometimes a lot more that 50%).
 
If we don't go, you bitch ... if we do go, you bitch.  Well, the Dutch aren't going, so I'm bitching about your country.  It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and complain when others are sticking their neck out.



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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:04:20 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The US has consistently opposed any real power being given to UN troops.


Agreed.  Why do you think that is?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The Dutch were lightly armed UN troops with a UN mandate that is so watered down to be meaningless. The Dutch wee censured by their parliament but I doubt Americans would have done anything if it was their lives or someone elses.


Would you be so forgiving if it had been American troops?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

In fact you said as much yourself in another thread.


Don't think so.  You are likely confusing me with someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I didn't say the US has been responsible for a genocide lately. I implied the US is as guilty as Europe of a genocide.


So, morality aside, what makes one better than the other to cast aspersions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The US isn't doing anything about Darfur either.


Classic "gotcha" in European thinking when it comes to American actions.  Damned when we do, damned when we don't.

Which do you want?  An activist US foreign policy, or not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you are talking about the French in Rwanda, it certainly looks like they have got something to answer for.


Exactly who I'm talking about.

French "leadership" for the EU has been mentioned.  This is the type of leadership that you would replace American leadership for?

FirmKY

Edited: spelling


< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/23/2007 8:19:43 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:06:10 AM   
ToGiveDivine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

One of the reasons I am opposed to US bases in EU countries is because then Europe would have to have a coherent policy rather than being divided and ruled by the US.


Coherent!?!?!  Europe!?!?!

You all dislike each other, you just play nice because it's politically correct.  You've formed the EU, but the French have decided they are the only ones that are competent enough to be in charge and wants everyone else to kow-tow to their will.  Do you really think Germany, England, and France are good buddies.  They haven't been at war with each other for less than a century, but do you think that really makes up for centuries of conflict.

The Baltic states were forced by the U.S.S.R. to put aside their anomosities towards each other and what other ethnic divisions they had.  Once the U.S.S.R. imploded, the old hatreds exploded.

Coherent - HA!  You can put sugar on shit, but it still leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Every country is out for themselves first and will shift alliances in a heartbeat if they can obtain any benefit from it.

< Message edited by ToGiveDivine -- 1/23/2007 8:07:28 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:06:18 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The US has consistently opposed any real power being given to UN troops. The Dutch were lightly armed UN troops with a UN mandate that is so watered down to be meaningless. The Dutch wee censured by their parliament but I doubt Americans would have done anything if it was their lives or someone elses. In fact you said as much yourself in another thread.

Giving the UN any real power is like giving the Keystone Cops any real power.


The US isn't doing anything about Darfur either.

Why aren't the Dutch sending troops to Darfur.  What is your country waiting for?  Do you need a mandate from the U.N. to do the right thing?

And why is it always the responsibility of the U.S. to send peace keepers when no one else seems to want to step up to the plate?  The U.S. has roughly 5% of the population but comprises over 50% of any peace keeping force (and sometimes a lot more that 50%).
 
If we don't go, you bitch ... if we do go, you bitch.  Well, the Dutch aren't going, so I'm bitching about your country.  It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and complain when others are sticking their neck out.




FirmhandKY brought up Darfur saying Europe wasn't doing anything about Darfur. I'm simply saying the US isn't either.

But getting back to the point of the thread, if the EU had its own military and foreign policy rather than individual countries kow towing to the US, the EU might be in a position to do something about crisises such as Darfur. As long as European countries like Britain have sychophantic policies towards the US, that isn't going to happen.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:10:46 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		And, who is going to be the backbone of this European army?
 
Is that what you really want?

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:11:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine


You all dislike each other, you just play nice because it's politically correct.  You've formed the EU, but the French have decided they are the only ones that are competent enough to be in charge and wants everyone else to kow-tow to their will.  Do you really think Germany, England, and France are good buddies.  They haven't been at war with each other for less than a century, but do you think that really makes up for centuries of conflict.


Britain has the problem, it thinks it is the 51st state but France and Germany will eventually unite as will Spain, Italy and the Benelux countries. Britain will probably tag along last as usual, not wanting to but not knowing what else to do.

Most of those centuries of conflicts had little impact on civilian life. It is just that the history books jump on events and they become large in the mind. It is the modern era and industrial warfare were Europe really descended into hell.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:18:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

And, who is going to be the backbone of this European army?
 
Is that what you really want?


France and Germany would be the first to join forces and Britain would realise it would have to choose between the EU or be left somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic ignored by the rest of the EU and used by the US when needed. But the primary case for a common EU force would be to defend Europe, not to project European power, those days are over. France has a truely independent nuclear system, Britain doesn't, it can't use its nuclear system without US approval which makes it pointless. As for weaponry, Europe is capable of developing its own but the US doesn't want it to because it wants to sell Europe its arms but I'm with the French here and Europe should develop its own. As for manpower, East Europe is full of potential recruits if European forces go European wide rather than national based but that would be years ahead.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/23/2007 8:21:30 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:20:57 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Just a reply..

What ever the case may be or where ever it is..the US is going to do what it does based on it's own interests. Apparently we seem to have a shit load of interests but none the less they are our interests and we'll do what is perceived as needed to be done in order to protect those interest.

Because another country has lesser interests or the incapability to do anything about the interests they might have is their business but not a darn person here that can honestly state that Any country that does have interests of their own and has the capability to safeguard those interests or make something their interest does exactly just that.

I happen to live in the US. I will support what the US says is in our best interest. Why? Because I friggin live here. If I lived in Iran, Israel, Russia or where ever, I'd feel the same just as I'm sure they do as well.

Are their perceived thoughts about what a interest is always right? Um nope. Do they always go about protecting it the best way? Um nope but often it isn't really transparent till after the fact, and hindsight is 20/20. Right or wrong..this is a countrys responsibity..to protect their people. Okay, sorry but if your seeing homeless, or murders, or other things happening..this isn't crap on the shit scale compared to the entire US coming to a screeching halt and sitting ducks if a country that hates the US gains control of one of the worlds most vital resources.

If you can name any country that has progression underway, has the ability to make a difference out there, and gain or alter control of something that Isn't or hasn't been doing or trying to do just the same as the US ..I'd love to hear the list, and how you derrive at that thought process. Gah..as if the US were the only greedy country out there. How naive.

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 1/23/2007 8:23:37 AM >

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:24:24 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

You can put sugar on shit, but it still leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


Heh!  Money quote!

FirmKY

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:27:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

You can put sugar on shit, but it still leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


Heh!  Money quote!

FirmKY


I think Blair has found that out but he didn't expect Bush to provide so much shit.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:30:01 AM   
ToGiveDivine


Posts: 650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine


You all dislike each other, you just play nice because it's politically correct.  You've formed the EU, but the French have decided they are the only ones that are competent enough to be in charge and wants everyone else to kow-tow to their will.  Do you really think Germany, England, and France are good buddies.  They haven't been at war with each other for less than a century, but do you think that really makes up for centuries of conflict.


Most of those centuries of conflicts had little impact on civilian life. It is just that the history books jump on events and they become large in the mind. It is the modern era and industrial warfare were Europe really descended into hell.


I know they have legal dope over there in Amsterdam, but dude, it's time to cut back a tad bit.

It's the people that scream about the intolerance of others that are usually quite intolerant of others.  It's a long fall off that high horse you've put yourself on.

Then again, I have to taken some of the blame; I should know better than to argue with an elitest.  Whereas I would like to see the countries of the world work together to fix problems and succeed together without crippling themselves by adhering to extremes.  There are others that just want to blame others.  It's like complaining about a politician when you didn't even vote in the first place.

When the Dutch start putting their necks out on the line, then maybe the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, etc. will start to care about their opinion.

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RE: Czech US base upsets Russia. - 1/23/2007 8:35:40 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
France and Germany would be the first to join forces


You can stop right there.  

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