RE: being married... (Full Version)

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Dnomyar -> RE: being married... (2/2/2007 4:44:35 AM)

AquaticSub you want to be my conscience. You seem to think I need one. This site needs a God or Goddess to keep us on the right path. We seem to be wallowing in moral decay.  I think the op is just looking for some women to cam him.  



Floridasubwanted -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 3:03:39 PM)

We would agree, if a person is so weak as to cheat especially when they may travel, live away from home, and refuses to deal with their home situation they need help seriously.

We don't feel sorry for anyone who gets burned that can't even deal with their spouse when they are unhappy and cheat as a means of feeling better or escaping.

We feel badly for the spouse when they eventually find out, and they always do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I forgot you are all just flotsam...no responsiblity for anything that happens to you or within your relationship....You are all just carried helplessly by the tides...."life just happens."...Get some fucking stones!  You allowed this to happen by not tackling the probems initially...like when your wife/husband lost interest in fucking you...you stayed silent or just skipped down the path ignoring all of the signs and hoped things would get better...And now look at you! Justifying your actions under some weak or rediculous guise for fucking others and then say you are doing it "for the good of the kids!"

The kids would be better off in a home with happiness and love than one filled with lies and coexistance...But I expect nothing less from people who are unable to take responsibility for their own actions...and will blame what they do on others or poor choices or other pathetic extenuating circumstance.

quote:

MarieToo
If you get divorced, you break a vow.  You betray a promise to stay with someone for better or worse.

Breaking a vow is breaking a vow. 


"Staying with some when it gets "worse" does not mean fucking other people...Are you all really this short sighted and/or weak?   I wonder how Mr marieToo would feel about this?

If you are going to cheat tell your spouse and hopefully they are poly and you can get your groove on...otherwise get out...loose half of your shit...AND BE HAPPY AND HONEST!!!!! What a bunch of pathetic fucks!  Hard to imagine people coming out to tout such actions and then provide some lame excuse...as justification!!! Like it can be rationalized...All it says is that you are dishonest, lack character, are unable to face the truth, are unable to communicate effectively, and would rather run from your demons than face them....Sounds like you are all quite a catch...Where do I get me some of this?

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.



Floridasubwanted -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 3:09:52 PM)

Why? Because its fucking sad to continue to cheat on someone your obviously don't love and continue to fuck other men or women. Its also another way your not being honest with yourself or anyone else. Sure most guys would have no problem fucking your holes everytime you invite them too, meanwhile your life and situation doesn't change and its only a temporary escape from reality.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ernurse48

why



MasterGremlin -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 4:11:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

Some people here seem incapable of making a distinction between cheating that comes from need and pain and situations that people may have no control over
 I am so unhappy I cry every day- the loneliness is to much to bear at times-  the lack of touch and feeling of being loved- haven't has sex in years-my marriage is painful . I stay for the kids- I stay because I have no where else to go- I stay because he makes the money and I don't. Oh Gee what am I going to do, What can I do- I cant live like this anymore.  Oh I got it................ I'm going to sneak around and cheat- get that loving feeling from some one else. Pretend my life as it is doesn't
exists.  Yes Yes that's it.. I have no control over the situations in my life  so I am going to mistakenly have an affair /cheat/be dishonest/instead of  admitting my marriage sucks and isn't good for me and do some thing to change that. Situations my ass / there is always control- step up to the plate and make that change.


About sums it up. Nicely put.

MG



gandalf0297 -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 4:13:56 PM)

Cheating is Cheating is Cheating. trust is involved in a D/s relationship. How can you trust one thats cheating.to begin with.



cloudboy -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 4:39:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubyleu

Just curious to know how others feel about Dominants, and submissives that are married, yet have a discreet bdsm relationship with another, withouth their spouse being aware of it. As for the Dominants who are married, do you feel this is an "undomly" quality?



CIAW

How's that for meaningless input?



SusanofO -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 5:03:05 PM)

Here are some  statistics on this topic, I thought some might find interesting.
Especially the conclusions toward the bottom (the last 6 "bulleted parts"

Here's the link.
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html


What it concluded (based on at least 10 different relatively recent studies) was - that if these stats are true, that in 40-80% of marriages cheating will occur at some point, then it might be more realistic to conclude that humans are prone to cheat, than to always, always cite the fact it occurs as due to some inherent flaw in humans, and as just more evidence of their already apparent imperfection.

A blanket statement like this, of course, can only be taken in a situational context. Because every relationship will have different people in it, and different circumstances (IMO, as usual.) Stats don't make moral judgments. But they can, IMO, sometimes point to some interesting conclusions. 

- Susan



SimplySubmissive -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 5:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

.
It tries to financially protect women and children. And often goes overboard.
When some men stopped using it because it didn't serve them to the government introduced the Child Support Agency. 



(thread highjack, sorry!)
One doesn't have to be married to have to pay child support. A name on a birth certificate is enough. Many of the young moms I work with were talked into leaving the "father" line blank for just this reason. If the mom applies for any help, medical, or whatever, they ask about the father and child support.  If the father's name is there, the state can go after them if they can't prove they have been paying to support their child. The mom asking for aid sets the ball in motion. Also, with a father listed, she may not be eligible for help, depending on his income.



domiguy -> RE: being married... (3/12/2007 8:52:17 PM)

quote:

SusanofO
Here are some  statistics on this topic, I thought some might find interesting.
Especially the conclusions toward the bottom (the last 6 "bulleted parts"

Here's the link.
http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html


What it concluded (based on at least 10 different relatively recent studies) was - that if these stats are true, that in 40-80% of marriages cheating will occur at some point, then it might be more realistic to conclude that humans are prone to cheat, than to always, always cite the fact it occurs as due to some inherent flaw in humans, and as just more evidence of their already apparent imperfection.

A blanket statement like this, of course, can only be taken in a situational context. Because every relationship will have different people in it, and different circumstances (IMO, as usual.) Stats don't make moral judgments. But they can, IMO, sometimes point to some interesting conclusions


From the article quoted by Susanof O This is the "actual conclusion" of the article which should come as no big surprise to anyone.
"What do infidelity statistics mean?"
http://www.menstuff.org/columns/sommer/archive.html#infidelity
quote:


I realize that what I am suggesting may not be particularly popular, especially among men and women who are on the receiving end of infidelity. Clearly, finding out that your spouse or partner has cheated on you is both shocking and painful. Realizing that you are just another infidelity statistic is not something one is wants to flaunt.
The reality is that there are a lot of unsatisfying and empty relationships out there. However, the reason why infidelity statistics are as high as they are is because people place a higher value on their careers, children, friends or hobbies and not on their relationships with their partners. Think about it - if you neglect any of these others, certainly they would falter and fail. Is it not surprising that your relationship would likewise fail?
The bottom line is - if you want to avoid becoming yet another infidelity statistic, then you must nurture and prioritize your relationship with your spouse or partner. As you may have already figured out, just like planes, relationships cannot be maintained on "auto-pilot" indefinately.


Stats don't make moral judgements but people do and according to the article "90% of the people find cheating to be morally wrong."

And the author goes on to say that "sex" was not the primary reason for cheating but the reason for the majority of all infidelity is that people are not tending to their relationship and "missing the signs." What it "points out" is that humans are to lazy to keep their relationship interesting...They don't put enough "value" on it...They simply don't care enough, and "neglect them."

quote:

SusanofO

Because every relationship will have different people in it, and different circumstances (IMO, as usual.) Stats don't make moral judgments. But they can, IMO, sometimes point to some interesting conclusions.


Again since you are reaching "your own conclusion" in lieu of reading the conclusion reached by the author of the report...It is clear that although we like to think that we are unique we all suffer from the same pitfalls "not nurturing or prioritizing our relationships."

There is no honor in cheating...It is dishonest...If you are not capable of having a monogamous relationship then don't...But then at least have the integrity to explain to your partners your inherent beliefs so that they will have a chioce voluntarily to proceed.

On this site you will find people in an array of lifestyles..slave, poly etc. The difference is they all have a choice and there seems to be the underlying notion of an implied consent...In cheating there is none..Otherwise it would have a different name..Open relationship etc.

The fact is that people don't like to hold themselves up to the mirror and truly look at what they see. So they take anything they can find to put some sort of justification to their actions...As if they are not responsible...Divorce is not a stigmatic event like it was in the past...It's your life...Your choice.  It's just a matter do you live with dignity or not?
Do you have the patience to find a suitable partner and then are you actually willing to put in the time to make it successful?  Apparently few are.



candystripper -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 12:42:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubyleu

Just curious to know how others feel about Dominants, and submissives that are married, yet have a discreet bdsm relationship with another, withouth their spouse being aware of it. As for the Dominants who are married, do you feel this is an "undomly" quality?


Think of what this entails.  Lying to the spouse about where Y/you've been and with whom.  Lying, by act or ommission, to the "other" in the relationship, letting T/them cling to the hope that one day, T/their lover will divorce and be with T/them.  Emotional distance from both the spouse and the "other".  Exposing the spouse to std's without T/their consent.  Destroying the dreams of the spouse and wasting the time of the "other". 
 
i could go on, but i think this covers the basic harmful effects of what you asked.  (And i do distinguish it from situations in which P/pl give informed, voluntary consent to an "open" marriage or a poly lifestyle.)
 
candystripper



SusanofO -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 1:22:35 AM)

domiguy: Read the last 6 "bulleted areas" on that article reference. Those are what I viewed as its final conclusions. Please note that they very definitely include a few very different conclusions from those you mentioned, and ones that also make very few distinctly aimed moral judgments. 

I am not trying to be snide here, but I included IMO in my statement. It stands for: In my opinion. 

I'd include those conclusions here, but you've already got the ability to look them up on that post, so you can do it - and so can anyone else who is interested in reading them. They are (I thought anyway) the last 6 "bulleted parts". Here's a re-print of the link:

http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html


I don't mean to be disrespectful, and  I can appreciate your POV. What I am  aiming for here is a balanced POV in this discussion, and since the scale seems to obviously tilt very heavily in one direction as far as POV on this topic in  this thread, I thought I'd toss in evidence that another one can exist.

Especially since it is what the original poster seems to have asked for, and is not getting - from anyone out there. At all, apparently. 

I am fine with people doing what is right - for themselves, and I appreciate honesty as much as anyone. I have pretty good reasons for my own POV I hold. I explained my reasons for my own POV on another thread, the CIAW thread, and see no need to detail them again here.

What sometimes bothers me, are folks who can't seem to be content with simply directing their own moral fate - but insist not only on pronouncing their own viewpoint, but telling others how they should view things like marriages they've never been in, circumstances they have yet to encounter, etc. - as if this shores up their own POV somehow. Why is this?

These arguments between folks on this topic has always stuck me as a curious situation, since there really are other examples on this bdsm site where people seem to have managed to bridge a fairly wide gap in a theoretical POV. CM has a special section for Goreans, because the bridge between them and non-Gorean bdsm'ers apparently got too wide and noisy to tolerate at one point. 

Is CM now going to have to provide the same option to "cheaters" and "non-cheaters"? The Polyamorists manage to get along okay w/the Monogomists okay, and their POV gap is pretty damned wide a lot of the time, I'd say. Can people not just do the same with this area?

***As for there always being consent in bdsm relationships, that is how the theory goes, yes. It seems to me to be a good goal, as the foundation for a well-functioning bdsm relationship. There was a rather interesting discussion about this area on another thread the other day -

I've read threads where a submissive, or a  Dominant, for that matter (but more often a submissive), has been made felt to do something they consider non-consensual before.

Imagine the following - "Hey female submissive of mine", a Dominant can say - "why aren't you trolling for my 3rd female submissive?" When that sub may never have agreed to help a Dominant a 3rd prtner for the household, and this arises, w/no previous discussion, as a "need" of his. 

Here is another situation I've seen from reading threads here, that can also apparently arise: "Hey (coming from either partner) why did you tell me you'd "go Poly" when it's now clear you don't want to and won't do it? "

Or a demand for bi-sexual sex from a partner who is straight, to satisfy a Dominant's whims, when it's bsaically done bu the other partner, under a fear of losing the relationship, more than not.

Is this "consent?"
I read comments on threads where this kind of stuff happens all the time.

My point: Ideals exist, and can be a noble aim. So do real folks exist, with individual cirsumstances and real-life problems.

- Susan



SusanofO -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 2:23:54 AM)

rubyleu: I had an affair after 10 years in a sexless marriage with a man who became more or less asexual after 4 years of being married. I did tell my husband I was planning on having an affair 10 years into our marriage, and he appeared not to care, so I went ahead with it. I did not inform him of details, or exactly when it started, or stopped.

When we married, at first we had what we both seemed relatively happy with the sexual part of our relationship, and I didn't really know that my partner actually could take it or leave it, as he'd seemed fairy enthisiastic about that to me before we married. However, after about 4 years, it became clear he didn't really care if we had any sexual relationship at all. For many years, and at the end of our life together, we did share some common interests, and a genuine affection for eachother. We never absolutely hated eachother - although a lot of resentment built over this issue (and one other major one). 

We didn't divorce due to what we both viewed as heavy opposition to that notion from our very Catholic respective families. He initially agreed to try marriage counselling, which he quit after 2 months, claiming that since I was the person with the problem, I was the one who needed counselling. I tried sexy lingerie, and reading books about how to make a sexual relationship better, and buying him gifts, and talking about it, crying about it, and even screaming about it. At one point, I left for a few weeks. He begged me to come back, claiming he couldn't live without me, and I did.

After several years of hearing "not tonight" I got tired of attempting to jump his bones for the very un-occasional "reward". I begged him to try Viagra, which he did, but stopped using it after 2 months, claiming it gave him migraine headaches.  He would not try an alternative to Viagra (Cialis, Levitra) claiming the same thing was likely to occur. I concluded he was probably asexual.

I tried to kill myself one night, by taking half a bottle of anti-depressant medication, because I'd let it be known I wanted to seek a divorce, and had been shouted down and ostracized at famuly events, by my husband and from his and my own immediate family, for even contemplating the notion. It just seemed there was no way out, and the situation had become emotionally unbearable for me.

After that attempt to end my life, I decided that my life was worth more to me than to think of ending it due to the situation I was in. I began an affiar with a man in a social group to which I belong (non-bdsm related) whom I'd known for several years. He was single, great-looking, close to my age, and had been making subtle passes at me for months. I finally "gave in" and also found out he had an interest and a basic knowledge about bdsm. For the first time in over 10 years, I felt truly alive.

Although I ended the affair after a little over a year, and my husband is now gone,
I do not regret having that affair. In fact, I think it may have saved my sanity. It alllowed me to regain a sense of desireability, affirmation as a person, and an introduction to the practice of bdsm, which is an inclination I felt for years, and which now finally had a name to me, and which I was given an opportunity to gain a better understanding  about.     

- Susan



Dnomyar -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 5:12:42 AM)

I like how people in here are two faced. Married people playing with someone else is cheating. Poly isnt cheating. Give me a break. If  your into poly then your cheating on both of the other partners. A lot of women wont go into or back into poly relationships because of that.



cjenny -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 5:17:16 AM)

I think ppl see the difference as in a poly relationship all are aware. In a marriage, there is usually a married partner unaware of the infidelity.



LotusSong -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 5:22:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubyleu

Just curious to know how others feel about Dominants, and submissives that are married, yet have a discreet bdsm relationship with another, withouth their spouse being aware of it. As for the Dominants who are married, do you feel this is an "undomly" quality?


Marriage is and has been a series of negotiations.  It amazes me that th mindset on here of "it's all good" fails when  a person doesn't think that what another is doing doesn't appear to be on the up and up.  There is always a reason they do what they do. 



DiurnalVampire -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 5:26:39 AM)

When you get into a relationship that is poly and you agre there will be others involved, that is vastly different than when you enter into a marraige that you believe to be monogamous.  When both partners agree to the monogamy from the getgo, and one changes their mind later on without informing their spouse, thats cheating.  Regardless of the reason, regardless of the treatment someone is getting at home, and regardless of the numerous ways people have to justify their going out and finding things elsewhere, when you venture outside an agreed-upon monogamous relationship without your partners consent to find sex you are cheating. If you are so unhappy at home, the you should be putting your efforts into leaving, rather than cheating.  If things are bad, then imagine how much worse they are going to get if your spouse finds out about your affairs. You dont want to leave for a score of reasons, perhas, but do you think your significant other will feel the same if they know that you have strayed? Most of the time, people cheat without thinking of the consequences for anyone other than themselves.

Not only do I find it un-Domly, but I find it unrespectable and untrustworthy.  How are you going to convince a new partner that you are going to be there for them, when you aready made that promise once and couldnt be held to it?  For better or for worse doesnt end in the bedroom.  I will not work with a sub who is married, whether or not the spouse supposedly knows.  There is no way for me to know what the spouse thinks of the arrangement short of meting them face to face and hearing them say it themselves.

My reason for being so bitter is that I have gone through this.  My exhusbad had a million reasons for going outside our marriage for sex with prostitutes while he was away on various business trips.  I heard everything (after the divorce, as innocant as he swore it was, he was smart enough to hide it form me until everything was legal) from they made him want me more, to he got tired of masturbating and needed relief. Whatever his reasoning, he went outside our agreed monogamy without even the courtesy to ask me if I would consider being poly. Sad thing is, if he had asked, at that point, I would have had no problem with opening things up.  I was no more satisfied physically had he was and I would not have minded options either.  But I respected the vows we took and I remained loyal.  He had no such moral restrictions. And I know for a fact he is acting the same way with his new girlfriend.

DV



Dnomyar -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 5:50:26 AM)

Let me see if I have this straight. According to most of you in here we should be true to that one special person. But most of you have been divorced and in several other relationships. You cant keep your own shit together,but your condemming others for the same thing. 



LotusSong -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 6:39:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Let me see if I have this straight. According to most of you in here we should be true to that one special person. But most of you have been divorced and in several other relationships. You cant keep your own shit together,but your condemming others for the same thing. 


... amazing, isn't it:)



domiguy -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 9:45:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Let me see if I have this straight. According to most of you in here we should be true to that one special person. But most of you have been divorced and in several other relationships. You cant keep your own shit together,but your condemming others for the same thing. 


Well actually it's been 500 pages of battling SusanofO on the topic of whether cheating is a "positive' quality....I'm a complete idiot.

I realized las night I really don't care.



Dnomyar -> RE: being married... (3/13/2007 10:08:53 AM)

domiguy if you went from novels to short storys then you would find out that you didnt care quicker



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