RE: Revolution

RE: Revolution (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

sleazy -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:05:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Sleazy, they have blocked these proposed laws. Incorrect technically. The commons has the power to force through legislation regardless (I think 3 readings in the Lords is the limit). It is not that the lords have blocked the laws, but the commons have stopped pushing them. Which is I admit almost as shocking, the government actually backing down over unpopular measures with little support or merit.

luckydog1 -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:13:41 AM)
Democracy does not mean you get your way. It means the majority gets their way. People that revel in their status as a "radical" will by definition never be a majority. Several 3rd parties have become main stream. However, most are not serious parties (they are single issue, radical or impractical), hence people do not follow them. People do want to eat tomorow, they want thier kids to eat tomorow and next week, which makes them tied to the Status Quo, there is nothing wrong with that. People in the West see what life in places with Radical or disfunctional governments is like. We do not want it. IF you actually have a solution of some sort, start converting people to it. But it has to be real, and it has to actually work. The system is very flawed, of that there is no doubt. But it will feed 95% of the planet tomorow. Could anyone imagine living under a Government run by a commitee of Real One, Meat Cleaver, and Northern Gent.

sleazy -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:15:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Could anyone imagine living under a Government run by a commitee of Real One, Meat Cleaver, and Northern Gent. Ok, Im gonna have nightmares now ! [:D]

NorthernGent -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:28:34 AM)
lol Sleazy, you'll argue over the colour of the sky. If I said blue, you'd say "technically incorrect, it's sky blue". Yes, the commons can push bills through in exceptional circumstances. True enough. In practice, this is rare - the hunting bill being an exception to the rule. Regardless, a bill was put before the lords and they blocked it. If you want to use another word then feel free but blocked works for me and you're fully aware the original point remains valid (regardless of the terms used by you and I) - the house of lords retains genuine power.

NorthernGent -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Democracy does not mean you get your way. It means the majority gets their way. Well, there's a revelation. Keep 'em coming. People that revel in their status as a "radical" will by definition never be a majority. If you're including me in the "radical" bracket (the link is to the last line in your post), you really do misunderstand my posts. In the US, maybe I'd be seen as a radical - not here. I'm moderately left of centre and I'd say 30% of the British population share my views. Let's say I'm typically Western European (consider that the British as a nation are further to the right than the French or Germans). Could anyone imagine living under a Government run by a commitee of Real One, Meat Cleaver, and Northern Gent. There ain't no commitee. I'm running this operation and it's going to be a tight fucking ship, I can tell you. Any dissent will result in a lengthy stay in His Majesty's gulag.

meatcleaver -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:45:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy The actual percentage may not be accurate, but the numbers claimed at the time were, as usual it was the failure of Joe Public to actually do anything. I doubt the British are any more apathetic than most Europeans but in most European countries the threshold a new party has to get over to get representation in parliament is pretty low. In many countries with a PR system like Holland it is 1.5% or in the German system 5%. These systems have inbuilt incentives as opposed disincentives to challenge the status quo. The is no evidence of instability either, Italy is something of a loner for its democratic instability and although British politicians claim PR is responsible it is probably more to do with divisions within Italian society.

sleazy -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:49:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent lol Sleazy, you'll argue over the colour of the sky. If I said blue, you'd say "technically incorrect, it's sky blue". Yes, the commons can push bills through in exceptional circumstances. True enough. In practice, this is rare - the hunting bill being an exception to the rule. Regardless, a bill was put before the lords and they blocked it. If you want to use another word then feel free but blocked works for me and you're fully aware the original point remains valid (regardless of the terms used by you and I) - the house of lords retains genuine power. Seriously NG, everybody knows the sky is technically purple (just a shade of purple with a very low red component) :) I stand by my point, if a power can be over-ruled, it is not really a power, just an illusion. It does however really prove a point about the current government, legislation that in the great scheme of things is pretty meaningless and realistically most people were apathetic or just followed the flow on, they force through using every means possible, wheras legislation that has real meaning and importance (regardless of any individual stance on the issue it is of real importance) they just drop. Makes you wonder just where the real priorities are, pandering to focus groups or the good of the nation (rhetorical I know)

meatcleaver -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 3:51:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Democracy does not mean you get your way. It means the majority gets their way. People that revel in their status as a "radical" will by definition never be a majority. Most PR systems have third and fourth parties. The top four parties being interchangeable and they are always under threat from bright new kids on the block. The UK and US system can be seen for what it is, oligarchic and not democratic, with both parties trying to squeeze on the centre ground and merging into one party but for some minor differences. The electrate become dillusioned and stop participating. Only something like 50% of Americans and 60% of Britons bother to vote, both very low turn outs compared to other western democracies. Could it be that many people see voting as pointless because whoever wins you get the same lot in power?

luckydog1 -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 4:06:18 AM)
It could be, but it could also be a lot of other things. I tend to see it as people not wanting to fix what ain't broke. Give people something to vote for. Less ranting, more practical plans. I just read an intersting article about how the French Socialist candidate is falling flat on her face. She talked a good game, but is colliding hard with reality. Despite your claims, I do not think you actually have the poeple on your side, or else they would vote as you want. On a side note If I were allowed to change the Constitution in America, I would transform the House of Representatives into a Parlimentarian body, and keep the Senate as it is. I agree it would open it more to smaller parties

meatcleaver -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 4:31:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 It could be, but it could also be a lot of other things. I tend to see it as people not wanting to fix what ain't broke. Give people something to vote for. Less ranting, more practical plans. I just read an intersting article about how the French Socialist candidate is falling flat on her face. She talked a good game, but is colliding hard with reality. Despite your claims, I do not think you actually have the poeple on your side, or else they would vote as you want. The problem of the French left is that it is divided, I think there are four candidates now against one rightwing candidate and a Fascist candidate. The French presidential electoral system will divide the left vote and allow the extreme right candidate have a run off with the conservative candidate as in the previous election. Is that the problem of the system or the left? Probably both. But the left wing candidates aren't so much offering different platforms as different personalities which just ends up pissing people off. Segolene Royal charmed in the beginning which was why she was popular but had little to say and still hasn't put any meat on the bone in regard to her hazy vision thing. Her popularity is now ebbing because her politics are so nebulus, no one really knows what she believes in (this actually worked for Tony Blair) and what her practical solutions are for the very real problems that France has.

NorthernGent -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 4:48:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sleazy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent lol Sleazy, you'll argue over the colour of the sky. If I said blue, you'd say "technically incorrect, it's sky blue". Yes, the commons can push bills through in exceptional circumstances. True enough. In practice, this is rare - the hunting bill being an exception to the rule. Regardless, a bill was put before the lords and they blocked it. If you want to use another word then feel free but blocked works for me and you're fully aware the original point remains valid (regardless of the terms used by you and I) - the house of lords retains genuine power. Seriously NG, everybody knows the sky is technically purple (just a shade of purple with a very low red component) :) Top marks for imagination. I stand by my point, if a power can be over-ruled, it is not really a power, just an illusion. There's a flaw in your thinking here. You're dealing in theory. In practice, it is real power because the lords have been over-ruled only 5 times since 1950. Thus, in practice, the lords have exercised their very real power by blocking proposed legislation (with no subsequent over-rule). The proof is in the pudding. It does however really prove a point about the current government, legislation that in the great scheme of things is pretty meaningless and realistically most people were apathetic or just followed the flow on, they force through using every means possible, wheras legislation that has real meaning and importance (regardless of any individual stance on the issue it is of real importance) they just drop. Makes you wonder just where the real priorities are, pandering to focus groups or the good of the nation (rhetorical I know) It'll be interesting to see what happens with the proposed anti-terror laws. The government is desperate to push them through. Same with the ID cards scheme. IMO, these are the real threats to our civil liberties. In comparison, other supposed invasion of private space are small details.

Archer -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 4:58:41 AM)
Democracy 3 wolves and a sheep deciding what's or supper.

meatcleaver -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 4:59:43 AM)
As Blair as proved, the House of Commons could do away with the House of Lords at a stroke. Why it doesn't is because of the amount of patronage the Lords gives the executive. The Lords needs reforming or abolishing, not because of the amount of power it has, it only has power with the blessing of the lower house so it doesn't have any real power at all. It needs abolishing because of the power through patronage it gives the executive.

Real0ne -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 6:51:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Yes and the Embeded taxes have not been mentioned either. Those great corporate taxes that get rolled into the price of everything we buy along the way. The ones that the corporations (customers) pay i will speak in terms of the 16th amendment being legal in the first place. The problem i see is that it does not repeal the 16th amendment and keeps us on the same system. We need the 16th to be repealed. The problem is the whole line of thinking here. People today forget what this country was built on. First WE delegate to the governemnt what powers and authority they have do we not? Well ok but we have a government that is out of control and a totally uneducated society so in that light we do not. In a nutshell repealling the 16th will force us back onto the gold standard. Its a really big deal you know. How big is it? Big enough that elite are willing to wrangle all these programs to bait us into biting on their hooks. Why? BIG money. i mean BIG money. Every president that has ever gone up against the bankers has been shot! Kennedy and Lincoln both went up against the bankers and they are dead. Assassinated. Does that give you any kind of idea just how important it is to these people to keep us off the gold standard? Why because it is such a bad idea? Because it did not work? Because this system is better? Oh sure... No because the bankers have everything to lose and we have everything to win. The problem is that people today are frankly as ignorant as they were back in 1913 when it comes to their rights. The importance of sovereignity. How the system was really meant to work and have become programmed to think in terms of solution sthat are along bankers terms by the "so called experts" and they actually pull the wool over their own eyes and in doing so everyone elses too. Government frankly is powerless to act against the bankers because of our ignorance. Why? because they need our support to do so and they do not have it! Why? Because we the people are willing to accept the garbage and scraps that the bankers toss out as our treasure. one mans garbage is another mans treasure. its seriously and sadistically sick frankly. We accept table scraps and forfiet the table with all its trimmings by biting on social programs that could be dealt with in other ways and programs like this flat tax. "the better deal" that is really not! The problem is that this new and wonderful system of taxation does nothing to put us back in accordance with the constitution and is really a rearranging what we already have to give us the impression that we are "getting a good deal", so why fight it, why look into it further, its a great settlement, but wait, who the fuck is in control here? This new and wonderful system does nothing for inflation. The old system under the constitution there is no inflation. You can say we wont get and that i would have to agree with you. Is it right for america? NO is it any more constitutional than what we had? NO. It is another slight of hand that will serve to dazzle us with bullshit for another round till people figure it out and most never will. Our government has been and continues to be systematically privatized by these bankers. We have the irs business and even traffic tickets are being collected by private corporations with no legal authority to do so. If its not apparent they see the writing on the wall! Why would they give us a tax system that would abolish the irs if they didnt see it coming anyway? Do we really think they are the good guys here? Its time we wake up. They know they are headed for huge problems up the road in the courts exactly as a result of these people who are fighting now. They woudl rather keep the exposure low as the less people that look into it the more likely the system will survive as it is or at least as close as they can maintain it. No this flat tax is just an extention of the same shit they have been handing us since 1913. its a scam upon scam and it succeeds because we believe we are helpless and we are to uneducated to know the difference. Let me simplify this into terms we can all easily understand. We are the Masters! Its all about US! The government is the slave! Thus M/s. Do you allow your slave to top from the bottom? Well the government is doing it why shouldnt your slave? err... or is that the slave is NOT doing it so why should your governement? Write your congressman and tell him no flat taxes, repeal the 16th,

Real0ne -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 8:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mgdartist .and I am so already over not voting in '08 too. MGD oh now this i shoudl point out is not the way to go! food for thought here... the libertarians have been running for over 30 years and their main premise is to get back to the constituition as well! So a vote for a libertarian is a vote against the system! i vote libertarian without even giving a shit who is on the ballot as that is the only way i can protest the system from the ballot box. my reasoning is that it hurts the dems and repubs to see vote that are swung away from them. and they know it. makes a statement so everyone who is disatisfied with the system should vote libertarian!! fuck the status quo i think that is very important to at least vote and tell everyone to at least make a statement and vote against all them at the same time! protest by voting LOL

mgdartist -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 8:03:16 AM)
quote: Write your congressman and tell him no flat taxes, repeal the 16th, YEAH

mgdartist -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 8:16:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: mgdartist .and I am so already over not voting in '08 too. MGD oh now this i shoudl point out is not the way to go! food for thought here... the libertarians have been running for over 30 years and their main premise is to get back to the constituition as well! So a vote for a libertarian is a vote against the system! i vote libertarian without even giving a shit who is on the ballot as that is the only way i can protest the system from the ballot box. my reasoning is that it hurts the dems and repubs to see vote that are swung away from them. and they know it. makes a statement so everyone who is disatisfied with the system should vote libertarian!! fuck the status quo i think that is very important to at least vote and tell everyone to at least make a statement and vote against all them at the same time! protest by voting LOL Damn, and I was starting to like you too... Now you finally show your true colors. You want us to turn freakin Libertarian. One of the last times I voted was for H. Ross Perot. Mr. big money himself via hindsight. Was he Libertarian? I don't recall. That's the problem friend, nobody does. I said I was not apathetic, so I'll research your party and vote accordingly, but last time I checked, they were a JOKE. Now thanks to you, I'll likely get to resume standing in line all day merely to cast a feeble, futile protest vote. Gee thanks. Vote Lib. no matter who's on their ballot? You kiddin me? There's an illegal ethnic in that woodpile somewhere...lol MGD

Real0ne -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 8:23:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mgdartist quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: mgdartist .and I am so already over not voting in '08 too. MGD oh now this i shoudl point out is not the way to go! food for thought here... the libertarians have been running for over 30 years and their main premise is to get back to the constituition as well! So a vote for a libertarian is a vote against the system! i vote libertarian without even giving a shit who is on the ballot as that is the only way i can protest the system from the ballot box. my reasoning is that it hurts the dems and repubs to see vote that are swung away from them. and they know it. makes a statement so everyone who is disatisfied with the system should vote libertarian!! fuck the status quo i think that is very important to at least vote and tell everyone to at least make a statement and vote against all them at the same time! protest by voting LOL Damn, and I was starting to like you too... Now you finally show your true colors. You want us to turn freakin Libertarian. One of the last times I voted was for H. Ross Perot. Mr. big money himself via hindsight. Was he Libertarian? I don't recall. That's the problem friend, nobody does. I said I was not apathetic, so I'll research your party and vote accordingly, but last time I checked, they were a JOKE. Now thanks to you, I'll likely get to resume standing in line all day merely to cast a feeble, futile protest vote. Gee thanks. Vote Lib. no matter who's on their ballot? You kiddin me? There's an illegal ethnic in that woodpile somewhere...lol MGD NO! LOL i am not saying support the libertarians i am saying use them against the dems and repubs! It is better than not voting, for exactly that reason! You see it will bring the dems and reps back into line to see votes going against them i suppose it woudlnt really matter a person could just vote themselves in as a write n vote LOL but i think that it means more throwing votes at a party who could at least stand a chance of wining and if they see a progression in that direction it will shake them up and get them thinking on how to get those votes back. hell they dont want to lose power and its a matter of what other real choice do we have but to not vote at all and i think that is inappropriate for achieving any kind of change i also think the key here is not to give those votes back to them until they do come into line and i mean in a big way not just tossing use fucking table scraps, i mean if they talk about repealing literally everything they have done to corporatize this nation Yeh its important to vote even if its garbage, imagine the shit hitting the fan if the lib vote gets to 40%!! This country can expect a very quick turn around tho they will try to do it with scraps and hope we bite LOL It has to be a all or nothing go for broke or we will just end up with the regurgitated system we have now with a different paint job.... Why because there is way to much money at stake and those who control it are going to put up a hell of a fight! LOL but we do have the means to beat them i forgot who but a lib got in for pres once i know of for sure, whats worst that could happen? Can it be any worse than nazi bush or blow job billly?

luckydog1 -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 12:00:32 PM)
"i forgot who but a lib got in for pres once i know of for sure, whats worst that could happen? Can it be any worse than nazi bush or blow job billly?" Yes things could be much worse than they are now or were in the 90s. That you do not realise it is kind of sad, but explains a lot of your views..

subfever -> RE: Revolution (2/4/2007 1:34:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mgdartist quote: Write your congressman and tell him no flat taxes, repeal the 16th, YEAH You would need to appeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 first, or at least concurrently.

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875