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RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 8:51:11 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
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Rather then leave the US are you trying making changes even at the local level,DO you vote ? oh hell forget that one for the elections are like replacing one crook with another one.Changes are needed here maybe from the inside,the people taking back the goverment.IT use to be that anyone could run for office now you have to be very well heeled to run for even a dogcatcher..IT pisses me off more then I can say .What are we as citzens to do..I know but I can't post it here...I have fought and bleed for this country,if called again would I respond hell NO....BH

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:01:52 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No, really - if you hate being an American, you should try something else out. I can't imagine why all those people are trying so hard to get into such an awful place like this in the first place. Can you?


While, like julia, I doubt this will have much of an affect, I would like to simply take a moment and thank you for encapsulating the modern ideals of America.

As a citizen who has served in the Marines, lived in Okinawa Japan for three years, and has been in Latin America for the past three years, I envy your ability to make such a bald faced statement.  That the world can be summed up into such simple statements such as "round em up and kill em" or "fuck them and their children" exemplifies the compassion and wisdom that the American People are capable of. 

I am jealous of the view, that America can be isolationistic and ignorant; while at the same time enforcing the will of the US on any other country it wishes to, in the name of commercial dominance.  I think it would be far less expensive if we simply started unleashing our nuclear weapons on all those other pesky countries; after all, we can still pump oil from the ground, so long as the workers wear hardened radiation suits.  And there won't be any silly wars or countries to interfere with us, eh?

Stephan

 
 
==========
My turn.
 
American people, have a special birthright.  IN 1917- some big shot-got a bullet put in his head. Setting off WW1, later ww2.  Germany and Japan were seeking global domination.  With out America [people, our fathers and grandfathers]    Much of the world would be under an iron fist.
 
We bailed out the worlds azz 2x.
 
Therfore- we earned our standing
 
 
Later generations will forget this. But the here and now- our kin folk saved the world.  Hence- the American birthright.
 
Got it?
 

I would hate to burst the bubble, and say something to the effect that it was our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers who fought those wars.  It would even be scandalous to suggest that if there was any right to inflict our will on the rest of the world, it would have been there's; not ours.  As it sits, your argument would be that just because your great great great granddaddy freed a slave, you have the right to claim their great great great grandchildren as slaves.  It just isn't true.

The United States was thrust into a position of power.  We accepted it reluctantly.  Our political powers have benefited in a huge way from this role as a global superpower.  They have been quick to consolidate this power, and use it no different than a policeman can use his badge to coerce a woman into having sex against her will.  I find it repugnant. 

The US was only able to achieve the power it has today, through it's compassionate use in the past.  Our lack of compassion today, will bring us down the same path that the Soviet Union tread.  That there is no major superpower to bring us to task, today, works against us, not for us; it would seem that, like Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan, the American people only seem to want revenge.  If all we teach our children is to shoot a machine gun, it's a good bet on what their future employment will be.

Stephan

Edit: for jenny,

Some situations would be resolved the way they resolve things in other countries; ship them to the appropriate countries embassy.  For those seeking political asylum, I'm sure we could make use of a defunct military base, and provide adequate housing, shelter, and medicine.  Bases are designed with security in mind; thus it needn't be turned into a 'refugee camp' i.e. families could be rather comfortable in the barracks rooms; after all, refugees don't show up with washing machines and kitchen sinks in hand.  If their request for asylum is denied, we could give them a choice of other countries to go to.  We would, of course, expect that those with the financial means to flee, do so at their own expense, at cost.  At cost wouldn't need to be twice the price of a beach resort; it could mean just that, at cost.

While this seems like a burden of expense to the public, it's wise to consider that inexpensive demonstrations of human compassion sow the seeds of future democracy.  Turning away those who need and seek help the most, sows the seeds of future terrorisms, of boys growing up remembering that they asked for help from the 'Great United States' and were herded around a concentration style camp like cattle, before being delivered back into the hands of those who ultimately killed their fathers and raped their mothers.

These concepts must be difficult to understand, considering the closest most people get to real political oppression is when they answer the phone, to hear a campaign worker soliciting donations.

Stephan


< Message edited by Stephann -- 2/24/2007 9:12:21 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:07:25 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

What exactly are we supposed to do with the 'huddled masses'?
All I've heard here is what we shouldn't do without any suggestions for an alternative.


How about putting them in aparments that are secured where their children can go to school and not be locked up for months in jail cells.

I would not be nearly so troubled by this but for two things: A private company runs the facility in Raymondville TX, and children are being locked up in adult style prisons for months at a time.. this is extremely troubling to me


Julia, now you want to put them in apartments?
Send their kids to our schools?
How about putting our own homeless people in apartments?
And who's going to pay for all this stuff?
Your argument is very weak. These people aren't "Immigrants" they're Illegal Aliens.
Those "Political Asylum" programs are mostly scams designed to get people into this country.
The Russian Mafia uses them all the time to get people in as well as those "sex-trade" asylum scams. And mark my words, there are a very many "Immigration Attorneys" who are getting RICH off of our Tax Dollars doing this kind of stuff!
They have even been involved in crafting legislation which would of course favor themselves!
Any type of govt. program like those will be targeted for scams by varoius groups looking to make money.
If our govt. had  Troops and a double fence along that border they wouldn't have to lock these people up, would they?
If these people are truly seeking "Political Asylum" from their countries then why are those countries still getting foreign aid from the U.S. if there so "bad?"
Something doesn't add up there!
I kind of agree with you in a way. These people shouldn't be locked up they should immediately be deported.
Oh, and I think you're kind of insulting "the huddled masses" who immigrated to this country Legally.
Illegal Aliens or Asylum seekers aren't included in "the huddled masses.
I'm so glad apples aren't oranges.
If I told you I was of Irish descent would you insist on calling me "German?"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/24/2007 9:10:21 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:07:34 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

What exactly are we supposed to do with the 'huddled masses'?
All I've heard here is what we shouldn't do without any suggestions for an alternative.


How about putting them in aparments that are secured where their children can go to school and not be locked up for months in jail cells.

I would not be nearly so troubled by this but for two things: A private company runs the facility in Raymondville TX, and children are being locked up in adult style prisons for months at a time.. this is extremely troubling to me


Okay that could be a viable solution, but do you really think that the average American taxpayer would want to support that?
Are we obligated to take care of them & not only house them but educate their children as well? I am not meaning to be contrary, without an alternative being offered {aw totally lost my train of thought}... erm... basically put up or shut up lol. Phrased much nicer!  
We need a solution before we tear down that imperfect system.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:08:25 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Why don't you try out being an Iranian for a while then?

Just a friendly suggestion.


No it was not a friendly suggestion, you were intending to get me to flame you. My only response it you are not getting rid of me so easy..people like me will continue to watch our government and call them on injustice and inhumanity even when it is not popular. And you know what? I am ok with that because it just shows that I am constantly ahead of my time because I am better informed than most of you.

I have to remember that the vast majority of people that hate immigrants on this site do not represent most people who would not approve of locking children in detention camps



Hello. =)
 
 
Oh, right on and amen, juliaoceana. It's really the duty of ALL Americans to keep a close eye on things like this, and protest it as being unjust. Sometimes we have to look beyond political
platforms and popular opinion and rely on ethical integrity. If anything will lift the United States out the many current messes we're in today, it will be that.
 
Unfortunately, Americans in general are losing our sense of civic-mindedness. We arguably have more freedom and access to a higher standard of living then anywhere else in the world, and instead of using these freedoms to enhance our sense of social responsibility, we've grown complacent, greedy, ignorant and uncompassionate. It worries me a great deal. As globalization continues, our place as a "superpower" will diminish. More then ever, we need watchdogs to speak out, to NOT be swayed by fear or blind patriotism. After all... dissent is the American Way. =)
 
Good for you, lady. =)
 
Cheers,
Stella

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:11:33 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
I am sorry cjenny, that is like saying that we needed to come up with a viable plan to end separate but equal in this country... if it is immoral it is immoral... to me locking children up in prison cells for months is immoral... perhaps I just have a different moral compass than most of the people I see posting on here.  That's cool, it just really hammers home for me how different I am than the vast majority of people who surround me and I cannot expect others to give a rat's ass if our country is imprisoning kids.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:13:29 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
jenny,

Some situations would be resolved the way they resolve things in other countries; ship them to the appropriate countries embassy.  For those seeking political asylum, I'm sure we could make use of a defunct military base, and provide adequate housing, shelter, and medicine.  Bases are designed with security in mind; thus it needn't be turned into a 'refugee camp' i.e. families could be rather comfortable in the barracks rooms; after all, refugees don't show up with washing machines and kitchen sinks in hand.  If their request for asylum is denied, we could give them a choice of other countries to go to.  We would, of course, expect that those with the financial means to flee, do so at their own expense, at cost.  At cost wouldn't need to be twice the price of a beach resort; it could mean just that, at cost.

While this seems like a burden of expense to the public, it's wise to consider that inexpensive demonstrations of human compassion sow the seeds of future democracy.  Turning away those who need and seek help the most, sows the seeds of future terrorisms, of boys growing up remembering that they asked for help from the 'Great United States' and were herded around a concentration style camp like cattle, before being delivered back into the hands of those who ultimately killed their fathers and raped their mothers.

These concepts must be difficult to understand, considering the closest most people get to real political oppression is when they answer the phone, to hear a campaign worker soliciting donations.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:16:43 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Setting off WW1, later ww2.  Germany and Japan were seeking global domination.  With out America [people, our fathers and grandfathers]    Much of the world would be under an iron fist.
 
We bailed out the worlds azz 2x.
 
Therfore- we earned our standing
 
 Later generations will forget this. But the here and now- our kin folk saved the world.  Hence- the American birthright.
 


These wars over the years - games organised by governments and played by your average man on the street. The world doesn't owe the US people just because your government decided there was something to gain from getting involved in European wars. Germans, French, British, Americans, Japanese etc - all young men being killed for no good reason. The nationality isn't relevant.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:17:23 AM   
azzmaster


Posts: 864
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline
people are people no matter what color what sex or where they are born. america is a rich country and we should spend more money feeding and clothing poor people in america  and abroad rather than spending my tax dollars blowing up their homes so the halliburton corporation can make a few more billion. no human should treat another human like they are garbage

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:17:35 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am sorry cjenny, that is like saying that we needed to come up with a viable plan to end separate but equal in this country... if it is immoral it is immoral... to me locking children up in prison cells for months is immoral... perhaps I just have a different moral compass than most of the people I see posting on here.  That's cool, it just really hammers home for me how different I am than the vast majority of people who surround me and I cannot expect others to give a rat's ass if our country is imprisoning kids.


Okay that was a bit rude..I stated that I wasn't being contrary but seeking what you consider to be a real alternative to the way it is being done now.
Twisting that into my being of less than stellar morality is really unessessary.

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~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:20:51 AM   
cjenny


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Stephann it is not difficult for me to understand, I am simply questing for alternatives to the way it is done now.

Nowhere have I said my stand on any of this, I am just asking how she expects this to be changed.

When change is needed then there has to be a different way used.

Jeez.

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:21:00 AM   
azzmaster


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i think the answer in this type of situation is always " how would u and ur kids  2 b treated if this was u? what would u think would be fair?"

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:22:20 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I was not talking about you, I was talking about the vast majority that feel it is ok to lock up kids that are posting on this thread, now I can hardly understand how you would take that personal if that is not your opinion.. I did not say "cjenny thinks it is ok to imprison children", did I?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:26:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

Stephann it is not difficult for me to understand, I am simply questing for alternatives to the way it is done now.

Nowhere have I said my stand on any of this, I am just asking how she expects this to be changed.

When change is needed then there has to be a different way used.

Jeez.


The first step to change is informing people. That is all I am doing here, informing people. Once enough people are informed then we as a society can do something about it, but if no one knows nothing will ever be done...

Throw a rock in the water and then it ripples out... or I will repeat the wisest thing my former dominant ever said to me "Each one teach one" I do not know who originally said it, but it is an important thing... spreading information in a democracy... it is the only way we can make good choices

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:30:01 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am sorry cjenny, that is like saying that we needed to come up with a viable plan to end separate but equal in this country... if it is immoral it is immoral... to me locking children up in prison cells for months is immoral... perhaps I just have a different moral compass than most of the people I see posting on here.  That's cool, it just really hammers home for me how different I am than the vast majority of people who surround me and I cannot expect others to give a rat's ass if our country is imprisoning kids.


Read this again then. It was directed to me.
How do you expect change to happen if there is not a different direction for things to go?

Nowhere did I say that things are fine as they stand, nor did I say things need to change. I remained neutral & asked HOW the change would be enacted.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:33:27 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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cjenny, I am going to reiterate, it was not directed at you as an individual.. you cannot possibly read my mind to determine if I was thinking that you were immoral or that you think that kids should be locked up. You can either accept what I said that I did not intend it to be pointed at you, or you can keep insisting that it was. I really do not care which you choose to do because I would rather discuss kids being locked up with no due process and no access to courts than I would the fact you find me rude and I hurt your feelings unintentionally.  Take that anyway you like.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:38:04 AM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline
You didn't hurt my feelings. I think you are very emotional over this subject, it is a very difficult thing.

I was trying to get possibilities, ways of changing the system instead of just railing against it.



[okay, every time I click a page or forum I go to guest & lose my log in, wassup with that?]

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:41:07 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
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Hi, Cjenny. =)
 
 
It's very true that an alternative solution needs to be employed to rectify such a horrible situation. But that involve a sizeable majority of Americans feeling it's wrong in the first place. Which might be the source of Julia's frustration ( Although if I'm wrong in my assumption, feel free to correct me) Americans have a wonderful history of social concience and change... and it usually starts with a group of people having the balls to stand up and point it out.
 
Acknowledgement comes first, then the solution. There's a whole list of social issues that have been brought to attention... and changed for the better, that have started with " This is ethically wrong and unnacceptable"
 
Cheers,
Stella =)

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 9:41:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
I tend to get emotional over abusing children

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/24/2007 10:00:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

Hi, Cjenny. =)
 
 
It's very true that an alternative solution needs to be employed to rectify such a horrible situation. But that involve a sizeable majority of Americans feeling it's wrong in the first place. Which might be the source of Julia's frustration ( Although if I'm wrong in my assumption, feel free to correct me) Americans have a wonderful history of social concience and change... and it usually starts with a group of people having the balls to stand up and point it out.
 
Acknowledgement comes first, then the solution. There's a whole list of social issues that have been brought to attention... and changed for the better, that have started with " This is ethically wrong and unnacceptable"
 
Cheers,
Stella =)


StellaByStarlight:
I have lost my magnifyer...could you please use a little larger type...I know you have something important to say but I cannot read it.
thompson

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 60
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