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RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 11:29:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have no concept of what you are talking about, being a war refugee is a rationalism for escaping with your kids?

Being put in detention because you were on an airplane to Canada because the airplane you were on made an emergency stop in the USA, so because you have no US visa so some paper pusher locks you and your Canadian born child in a US prison camp has some responsibility for this? We have a Canadian citizen locked up in a detention camp.. he is 9 years old.. you should really listen to his story before you are so damned dismissive of his plight.

It is so easy to be dismissive when you were blessed to be born here and never suffer one day of your existence in such circumstances... now I am truly done here because I am discussing this with someone that it has become patently obvious did not listen to the link  provided.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 221
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 12:05:07 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Being put in detention because you were on an airplane to Canada because the airplane you were on made an emergency stop in the USA, so because you have no US visa so some paper pusher locks you and your Canadian born child in a US prison camp has some responsibility for this?


The person who does not have any responsibility is the US, US customs and US immigration officials enforcing the law of the US. Once processed and back in Canada they can take up the issue with the Canadian government, the airlines, and anyone else. Meanwhile, their consequences are what they are, pragmatically callous but true.

And since when is Canada "war-torn". They left "war-torn" and were on a plane headed to Canada. We don't force Canada to follow our laws and rules on airline passengers and the US is under no obligation to treat these people differently because of the differences in those laws. They were treated no differently than any other person aboard that plane. I thought you want equality for all? The fact that the Canadian government and the airline caused their plight is obvious.

Same point - the USA didn't put these children or the parents in this position, the parents did with an assist from the Canadian airline. Just because I don't rationalize as you do regarding what I hear/read don't think I didn't hear/read it. Intentions or circumstances don't and shouldn't get you any special consideration. There is always a cause for rationalization. In this instance the situation is sad but that's the way it is.

Laws restricting freedom and personal decisions always generate these situations which is why I unilaterally fight against them all. However when they are on the books I require that I, and everyone else in my sphere of influence, live under them; or accept, perhaps with some loud complaint, the consequence.

It's "patiently obvious" a equitable way for everyone to live together, unless they subscribe to a world where entitlements and good intentions make all laws arbitrary or at best subject to personal interpretation akin to "obscenity".

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 12:48:04 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Being put in detention because you were on an airplane to Canada because the airplane you were on made an emergency stop in the USA, so because you have no US visa so some paper pusher locks you and your Canadian born child in a US prison camp has some responsibility for this?


The person who does not have any responsibility is the US, US customs and US immigration officials enforcing the law of the US. Once processed and back in Canada they can take up the issue with the Canadian government, the airlines, and anyone else. Meanwhile, their consequences are what they are, pragmatically callous but true.


If this case is true Merc. the US is somewhat harsh and xenophobic when it comes to dealing airplane emergencies. I wonder how the US would respond if its citizens were subject to such harsh treatment. Though my experience of US customs has me to believe it is true. They appear to me to be muscle heads and unable to use any intiative and common sense they might possess..

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 1:07:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

If this case is true Merc. the US is somewhat harsh and xenophobic when it comes to dealing airplane emergencies. I wonder how the US would respond if its citizens were subject to such harsh treatment. Though my experience of US customs has me to believe it is true. They appear to me to be muscle heads and unable to use any initiative and common sense they might possess..


MC,
I wouldn't disagree with you, on any level other than your reference to "harsh treatment". Harsh was what they incurred in their homeland - Iran. They are inconvenienced and isolated, but not tortured. Amazing how the school was criticized by the 9 year old, yet, if all is to be taken as fact, he had personal tutor since he also says he hasn't been in contact with other children.

My position lies in the transcript that I was accused of not reading. One official is quoted as saying something to this effect; "I would love to put you back on the plane to Canada, but I would lose my job." The US has two border patrol agents in prison for "doing their jobs" by shooting a criminal coming over the border with drugs. Their "crime" comes down to not filling out a timely and accurate report. The criminal was released and is currently suing the USA and the border guards. Do you think this official had that in mind when he followed the law exactly as it was written?

The US, similar to all countries and individuals in a free society, can protest and complain about any other county's laws and the enforcement of those laws. The US protests against the treatment of their citizens all the time. If we didn't go to war over the illegal occupation and treatment of US citizens during the occupation of our embassy in Iran, I doubt that someone being held for improper visa documentation would warrant a strong response.

Similar to the immigration official, I can sympathize and support, but there is little that can be done other than what was done.

I'm sure you notice, as I do, there is a huge difference in travel and discretionary decisions being made since 9/11.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 1:18:29 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I'm sure you notice, as I do, there is a huge difference in travel and discretionary decisions being made since 9/11.



Entering the USA has never been a pleasant experience, even before 9/11, though tightening up security since 9/11 is understandable, being a jobsworth is not always necessary. But surely, bigger lapses of security are more likely to happen when initiative is not allowed to used by the personel rather than when initiative is encouraged. 

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 1:40:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

But surely, bigger lapses of security are more likely to happen when initiative is not allowed to used by the personnel rather than when initiative is encouraged.


MC,
You and I can discuss this from a distance and end up agreeing. The individual faced with making the actual decision comes from a much more pragmatic position. He makes a decision in compliance with the law and remains a faceless bureaucrat. He takes, as you put it, the initiative, and risks losing his job at best. At worse he could end up incarcerated for violation of one of the tenets of the National Homeland Security Act.

Logic, even viewing the big picture, has very little in common with what occurred in this instance. The official may even agree to your view that "security" isn't served by the laws on the books. However, he isn't being paid to interpret, his job and the reason he is paid and is to enforce the laws that were passed by the Senate and Congress regarding the treatment of individuals entering the country.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 3:38:20 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"Huddled Masses."
Funny how some people think a poem is "policy."

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 3:49:35 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Emma Lazarus
The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

----

I guess some people prefer "the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land;"




< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/26/2007 3:51:50 PM >

_____________________________

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 3/2/2007 8:29:23 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"Huddled Masses."
Funny how some people think a poem is "policy."


popeye1250:
If that poem is just a lie then why don't we just melt that brass bitch down and scrap her?
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 3/2/2007 9:18:37 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Sometimes I hate being an American. I know why everyone thinks we are ugly.


we havent been americans for nearly 100+ years.  We have been nothing more than an extension and rebirth of britain!  So whats so surprising about that?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 3/2/2007 11:43:23 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Sometimes I hate being an American. I know why everyone thinks we are ugly.


we havent been americans for nearly 100+ years.  We have been nothing more than an extension and rebirth of britain!  So whats so surprising about that?


I really like being an American!
What I don't like is how my govt. fails to do it's job.
Like drugs I have ZERO TOLERANCE for illegal aliens.
They have their own countries to live in.
Those people should be sent to Canada and let (them) sort it out.
We have anywhere from 12-20 million people in our country illegally. They can't stay. This is not their home.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 3/2/2007 12:08:51 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Sometimes I hate being an American. I know why everyone thinks we are ugly.


we havent been americans for nearly 100+ years.  We have been nothing more than an extension and rebirth of britain!  So whats so surprising about that?


I really like being an American!
What I don't like is how my govt. fails to do it's job.
Like drugs I have ZERO TOLERANCE for illegal aliens.
They have their own countries to live in.
Those people should be sent to Canada and let (them) sort it out.
We have anywhere from 12-20 million people in our country illegally. They can't stay. This is not their home.


popeye1250:
Texas,New Mexico,Arizona,California,Nevada and Colorado used to be their country until the U.S. stole it from them at the point of a gun.
So much for your dedication to law and order.
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 232
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