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RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 7:28:40 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		A usual meatcleaver, you are only able to see one extreme or the other. (my view, to be fair)
 
To point out again, I'm not in favor of this war ... if I had my way, we wouldn't be over there at all ... but that doesn't change the reality for me, like it seems to for some.
 
Iraqi sponsored resistance is virtually none. The idea that Iraq is engaging the United States in a unconventional war, just doesn't make sense. Tehran is the defacto commander of all the unconventional activity in Iraq. If the United States attacks Iran, which seems unfortunately likely, the shooting war would be over in about a week, after a few months of bombing.
 
You then have to ask the question: "Who will sponsor unconventional activity in Iran, the way the Iranians are sponsoring it in Iraq?"
 
Do you really think the other Arab countries are going to jump on that band wagon:
a) knowing the obvious eventual result?
b) (more importantly) knowing they can make a nice profit, as the one's left standing?
 
This is where I part company with most others on this site that share the anti-war position. I don't think this administration is stupid or foolish at all. I don't agree with what they are doing, but I see them working, and understand their position.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 7:30:23 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

We've gotten pretty good at surgical strikes, maybe too good - now that's what everyone demands, even when it comes to stopping a young and upcoming Adolph Hitler, just like the Iranian President there. And no, not all Muslim countries are behind Iran, not by a long shot. The guy is a nut, and not at all the friendly hero that some would lead us to believe.



Ahmadinejad's career is on the decline and whatever he is, he is no Hitler. Iran has attacked no one. The problem America seems to have is that it has a media that refuses to desent and just tows the government line so Americans don't get the full picture. The desent in Iran is such that there is no need for military action. However, American military action would change the whole face of the middle east. US friendly governments won't be able to ignore their populations which see their government's in the pay of the US and the war in Iraq as an imperial war. A sure fire way to get Iran friends is to attack them. America wanting to position missiles close to the Russian border has moved Russia closer to Iran. Either Bush is a genius and he is going to produce a coup de grace or he really does think power is the answer to everything.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 7:39:57 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		What world opinion are you talking about meatcleaver?
 
China ... Russia ... for Christ's sakes, they're five times more brutal than we will ever be. China would have sent the rape and pillage boys through Iraq long ago, if they were in our shoes. They will be in our camp, as long as its in their financial best interest to do so. (but will of course gripe, for public consumption).
 
Europe ... who fucking knows, and who fucking cares. You guys are going to change your mind in a few years anyway ... you are the only people on this planet, more fickle than Americans.
 
Middle Eastern countries ... don't you think our blind support for Israel might be pushing about as hard as we can? You know, there is a limit to hate, when you want someone's money.
 
So, what public opinion are you talking about, that is going to make a flying fuck in the end?

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 7:51:00 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		As I said elsewhere, war is far too important a thing to be left to politicians. The military should be given an objective and left to it, Hitler did pretty well on the international warfare thing until he started to second guess and over-rule the battle staff.

The minute military and political objectives become confused is the time that things start to go wrong, take the decades of trouble in Ulster, every soldier knew damn well that if allowed to do the job they were trained and equiped for that the problem would be pretty much solved within practically no time. I am likewise certain that every soldier in Iraq right now feels the same, that if they were allowed to be soldiers and fight then the country would have been "pacified" long ago. Exactly the same would apply in Iran, can the political types learn the lesson quick enough? It does not help that the US has relied on mass battle training and doctrine that is unsuited to low-level insurgency style conflicts, the lessons not learnt in Vietnam, Korea and Cambodia have still not been learnt properly where other countries learned them long ago (France & Vietnam/Algeria, the UK & Ulster, Aden, Israel, Yemen etc). There are only two ways to deal with an enemy that fights in such a way, either dust off the nukes and create the worlds biggest parking lot, or play the same game, ignore the civilians, the geneva convention, the "rules" of conventional warfare and most of all, ignore the politicians. An Abrams is not much use in the city streets, a couple of well armed well trained men with automatic weapons dropping hand grenades here and there is far more effective. Surgical strikes have their place, but they require good real-time intelligence, and all surgery comes with some risk but people do not like to be reminded of that.

I am so glad that I do not have to take into account anything but the objective and bringing my men back in the same number of pieces they went out, my costs, and bodycount (friendly and colatteral) would increase tremendously if I had to worry about the media or satisfying politicians and the press.

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:17:39 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The fact that the Israelis haven't been able to succeed using similar strategies proves that hypothesis false.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:36:51 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Iran is merely building nuclear bombs, and pulling recon missions in NYC.

That's all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Iran has attacked no one.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:38:29 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Iran is merely building nuclear bombs, and pulling recon missions in NYC.

That's all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Iran has attacked no one.




NYPD isn't a credible source. Especially UNNAMED sources.

And you misspelled "CIVILIAN NUCLEAR POWER PROGRAM".



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/27/2007 8:39:48 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:51:47 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
The fact that the Israelis haven't been able to succeed using similar strategies proves that hypothesis false.


I would argue that the Isreali military is subject to political constraints too, both domestic and international, and are playing pretty pretty conventionally, after all they are not bombing markets and public transport, not randomly walking up to cafes and emptying a magazine at whoever happened to be around. Imagine if a free hand was given, no "defence only" sales of US hardware as one example. Was making Arafat a virtual prisoner and allowing him to fly out for medical treatment a political or a military choice? Is building a wall something like the green zone barrier in Baghdad, or is it taking the fight to the front doors of the enemy?

So the Isrealis are fighting pretty conventionally, trying to appear the good guys on the world political stage, and barely holding their own, how does that dis-prove my point?





_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:54:24 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Farglebargle, if Iran is sitting on top of some of the largest known energy reserves in the world in the form of oil, and since Iranian President Tom Amadeenajabbi repeatedly says that he's going to wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth, why do you think they're really building their massive nuclear program. Energy, or genocide?

If you really believe that they need the energy, I am genuinely concerned about your mental health.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Iran is merely building nuclear bombs, and pulling recon missions in NYC.

That's all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Iran has attacked no one.




NYPD isn't a credible source. Especially UNNAMED sources.

And you misspelled "CIVILIAN NUCLEAR POWER PROGRAM".




< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/27/2007 8:55:12 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:56:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


So the Isrealis are fighting pretty conventionally, trying to appear the good guys on the world political stage


Yeah, not being able to just commit genocide or other crimes against humanity is a real slowdown. And thank G-d they're trying to appear to be the good guys! I'm sure thats a relief to a lot of the people living under occupation.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 8:59:00 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Farglebargle, if Iran is sitting on top of some of the largest known energy reserves in the world in the form of oil, and since Iranian President Tom Amadeenajabbi repeatedly says that he's going to wipe Israel off of the face of the Earth, why do you think they're really building their massive nuclear program. Energy, or genocide?

If you really believe that they need the energy, I am genuinely concerned about your mental health.


Because it's THEIRS and they want to be able to SELL IT far into the future, to make rubbermaid and tupperware, rather than BURNING IT.

And I think it's for ENERGY. But hey, as a Sovereign Nation, if they wanna develop an atom bomb, isn't it their Sovereign right?

They ain't your slaves, so you don't get to TELL them shit. Isn't THAT what Freedom and Liberty are all about?

And NYPD is still not a credible source.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:06:33 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		That's a two-way street, farglebargle. Means we also get to destroy them if we want.

Doesn't it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

They ain't your slaves, so you don't get to TELL them shit. Isn't THAT what Freedom and Liberty are all about?


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:09:49 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

That's a two-way street, farglebargle. Means we also get to destroy them if we want.

Doesn't it.



Well, if you want history to view your government as worse than the Nazis, sure... Free will is a bitch.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:11:14 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

If you really believe that they need the energy, I am genuinely concerned about your mental health.



I don't know about you, but it has been a long time since an Iranian nuke hit me in the face. Experience indicates there is not going to be a nuclear attack to threaten the Western world. The rest is all ifs, buts and an unhealthy dose of government propaganda.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/27/2007 9:15:11 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:15:00 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		What would have been nice was to have stopped the Nazis before they ever got started. It's funny that the President of Iran is building nukes and openly saying he's going to destroy the Jews, and you have the cheek to say that anyone who lifts a finger to stop him is a Nazi.

Hilarious.

Thanks for the laugh!

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, if you want history to view your government as worse than the Nazis, sure... Free will is a bitch.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:18:35 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		How many would it take befor you decided it was a baaad thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I don't know about you, but it has been a long time since an Iranian nuke hit me in the face.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:20:09 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What would have been nice was to have stopped the Nazis before they ever got started.


Well, the Republicans back in the day, didn't want the US to go to war ( my, how things change ) while at the same time, George W's grandpappy Prescott Bush was making a LOT of money working WITH the Nazis.

quote:


It's funny that the President of Iran is building nukes and openly saying he's going to destroy the Jews, and you have the cheek to say that anyone who lifts a finger to stop him is a Nazi.


No, what I SAID was that if the US unilatarially destroys a nation, they will be judged in history as worse than Nazis. I guess what people hear in their minds is more interesting than the actual responses.

And Iran is building Nukes EXACTLY the same way Iraq was. That is to say, ONLY in the delusional fantasies and intentional lies of the Bush Administration.

Man, wouldn't it be a good time for Bush to have ANY credibility?

As a Jew, watching the US go down the same path as Germany did under the National Socialists, the FEAR subverting Equal Protection, and Due Process. It's sad to see yet once again.

And if you suckers let yourselves get played into Invading/Occupying Iran with the same bullshit lies which got you into Iraq, you really are too stupid and cowardly to deserve Freedom and Liberty, so maybe it's better that the USA screwed up at this point to illustrate the point, for the slower folks who haven't been really paying attention.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/27/2007 9:23:09 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:25:19 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Well, I don't live my life based on "the off chance". To date, I have experienced zero nukes. In fact, the only country I'm aware of which has actually used them is the one currently sat with loads of the things (and currently operating an aggresive foreign policy) i.e. the evidence points towards the US being the most likely. Now, I don't think the US is about to launch a few and you'd say I was talking rubbish if I suggested anything to the contrary. My advice: allow Iran the same benefit of the doubt.

On a related note, the Iranian President never said he wanted to "wipe Israel off the face of the map". I've been through this a few times, but do some research into this and you'll see he was talking about regime change.

The climate of fear has been manufactured for a very good reason.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:30:05 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I don't know about you, but it has been a long time since an Iranian nuke hit me in the face. Experience indicates there is not going to be a nuclear attack to threaten the Western world. The rest is all ifs, buts and an unhealthy dose of government propaganda.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with the logic of this on at least 2 pretty major points

No Iranian nuke has hit you in the face because they havent produced them sufficently yet, nor have they decided you deserve one.

As for experience thats very dubious logic, several nations have had nukes, only one has used them in anger therefore no other nation ever will. Seriously there is no real justification for such a conclusion. All it takes is for a single Iranian, Pakistani, Korean, Indian or Chinese or whomever to take that step to oblivion. 30 years ago MAD was a pretty good policy for prevention of conflict despite its obvious flaws, but now the use of such weapons is the perfect way for a small poorer state to really bloody the nose of one that is technically, financially or militarily superior

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:32:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I would argue that the Isreali military is subject to political constraints too, both domestic and international, and are playing pretty pretty conventionally, after all they are not bombing markets and public transport, not randomly walking up to cafes and emptying a magazine at whoever happened to be around. Imagine if a free hand was given, no "defence only" sales of US hardware as one example. Was making Arafat a virtual prisoner and allowing him to fly out for medical treatment a political or a military choice? Is building a wall something like the green zone barrier in Baghdad, or is it taking the fight to the front doors of the enemy?

So the Isrealis are fighting pretty conventionally, trying to appear the good guys on the world political stage, and barely holding their own, how does that dis-prove my point?



Well they aren't going to blow their own cafes and transport systems but they have no problem in randomly shelling Palestinian domestic residences, diverting Palestinain water, stealing Palestinian land, making mass arrests and holding thousands of people for years without charges. Collective punishment is a war crime. Just google, you can find out how many children the Israelis have killed. I don't know how they can put all them down to accidents. The Israelis kill as cold bloodedly as any terrorist group and always have.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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