Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? )


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:32:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		MAD is still a perfectly valid Policy. Unfortunately it doesn't fit in with the desires for the Bush Administration.

Hermann Goering is quoted:
quote:



Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.


And go check out Burt Lancaster's speech in Judgment at Nuremberg.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/27/2007 9:34:05 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:35:43 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I think you've missed a pertinent point, Sleazy. I'm not seeing any evidence to support the notion that Iran is a threat to the Western world - evidence being the operative word as opposed to ifs, buts and maybes. I don't subscribe to the "all it takes" school of thought.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:37:57 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Iran is merely building nuclear bombs, and pulling recon missions in NYC.

That's all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Iran has attacked no one.




Not a great source. Iran wanting a nuclear bomb is quite rational with a warmonger like Bush in the Whitehouse and a couple of aircraft carrier fleets off its coast.

Just stand back for a second and try to look at the situation through none American eyes. America is the bellicose one, it is America that is half way around the world and invading Iran's neighbours. It is America threatening Iran. If I was an Iranian, I too would think that the only way to keep America in check is by acquiring a nuclear bomb, it isn't irrational, its quite the opposite, very rational indeed!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:40:17 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		The Iranians have seen the lesson from Iraq...........if you have oil you better get some nukes to keep bush and associates at bay.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:45:46 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		And after the 2003 Iranian Peace Initiative was rejected out of hand, what other policy would be appropriate?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:48:03 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I think you've missed a pertinent point, Sleazy. I'm not seeing any evidence to support the notion that Iran is a threat to the Western world - evidence being the operative word as opposed to ifs, buts and maybes. I don't subscribe to the "all it takes" school of thought.


Unfortunately life is one big string of ifs and buts, as for evidence, the statement along the lines of "I hate country x and its supporters and I want to wipe them off the map and I am developing the means to do so"...... well if the guy beside me in the bank says I got a gun, hand over all the cash, I shall take his word for it and worry about supporting or contrary evidence later.

Iran today may not be much of a threat in real terms, but politics in that part of the world gives me two causes for concern, firstly its not the most stable region on earth politically and changes in power are often abrupt and extreme.  To put it in a really odd context, I put on my seatbelt when I get in the car, not when (if) I see the idiot running the red the other way.

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:52:41 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


Unfortunately life is one big string of ifs and buts, as for evidence, the statement along the lines of "I hate country x and its supporters and I want to wipe them off the map and I am developing the means to do so"


That is called "Political Rhetoric"

quote:


...... well if the guy beside me in the bank says I got a gun, hand over all the cash, I shall take his word for it and worry about supporting or contrary evidence later.


That is called attempted armed robbery. Do you see the difference?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 9:54:22 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The Iranians have seen the lesson from Iraq...........if you have oil you better get some nukes to keep bush and associates at bay.


You may be entirely right ... but there is some grey area.
 
Lots of people have oil. We could probably trump up a war in South American, if we wanted to. We could probably force Canada to sell to us on the cheap, if we wanted to. Saudi Arabia could be easily strong armed, etc ... Those points may mean nothing, but are worth consideration.
 
My question back at you ... is it possible, just possible, that in the eyes of Bush & Co., they are actually going after states that sponsor international terrorists? He did say that ... you may not believe it (I'm not sure I believe it), but when you call Americans & Brits paranoid, you have to then be able to look in a mirror and question why you don't belive something that was clearly stated. The people calling others paranoid, might just end up being paranoid themselves.
 
Good discussion ... as always.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:08:02 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


Unfortunately life is one big string of ifs and buts, as for evidence, the statement along the lines of "I hate country x and its supporters and I want to wipe them off the map and I am developing the means to do so"


That is called "Political Rhetoric"

quote:


...... well if the guy beside me in the bank says I got a gun, hand over all the cash, I shall take his word for it and worry about supporting or contrary evidence later.





Nope, In one case its someone saying they have the ability to harm, and in the other its someone saying they have the ability to harm, the only difference is scale

That is called attempted armed robbery. Do you see the difference?




_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:10:07 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Consider the WMDs farce, the forged documents, the rhetoric of "Islamo-fascists", the claimed Iraqi support for Al-quaeda etc. It amounts to a trend in misinformation. Why are you questioning those who question the integrity of US foreign policy i.e. what exactly is the other side of the argument? Is there any other argument apart from the one you've offered i.e. the statement of their intentions? and if this is it, then what makes them so trustworthy?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:10:09 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The Iranians have seen the lesson from Iraq...........if you have oil you better get some nukes to keep bush and associates at bay.


You may be entirely right ... but there is some grey area.
 
Lots of people have oil. We could probably trump up a war in South American, if we wanted to. We could probably force Canada to sell to us on the cheap, if we wanted to. Saudi Arabia could be easily strong armed, etc ... Those points may mean nothing, but are worth consideration.
 
My question back at you ... is it possible, just possible, that in the eyes of Bush & Co., they are actually going after states that sponsor international terrorists? He did say that ... you may not believe it (I'm not sure I believe it), but when you call Americans & Brits paranoid, you have to then be able to look in a mirror and question why you don't belive something that was clearly stated. The people calling others paranoid, might just end up being paranoid themselves.
 
Good discussion ... as always.


I suspect that CINC Canada (that would be Commander In Chief, Canada) would object if Monkeyboy wanted to invade Canada.  All he would have to do would be to get CINC PAC(ific) or somebody else to turn their key as well and they could nuke the White House.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:12:55 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Nope, In one case its someone saying they have the ability to harm, and in the other its someone saying they have the ability to harm, the only difference is scale


Except there is no danger from someone making speeches, is there?

Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but I'm rubber and you're glue, right?

There's a nutjob on the corner screaming that The End Is Near! You going to liquidate your holdings and head up to the Mesa to wait for the mothership?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:38:06 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I do understand what you are saying, believe me. I may also agree with it ... but "may", is different than "do."
 
Iraq clearly had weapons of mass destruction at one time, and did use them. Just about every western power has used them at one time, so we can probably spot one when we see one. To be honest, I throw that whole issue into the "maybe" category.
 
Islamic-fascist rhetoric is no different than anti-Western rhetoric or Israeli rhetoric or President Putin's rhetoric. It sells to the masses.
 
Forged documents is an issue ... perhaps the worst issue. I'm willing to put that in the "fuckup" category ... right next to a Secretary of Defense that ignores his generals and plays out the war for two years with too few troops.
 
Intentions ... the point I'm making is that you can poke holes in any possible intention. I can argue effectively on either side of this issue, and so can you, and so can most of us here. Afghanistan and Iran are clearly was/is sponsors of terrorist groups. That really isn't in doubt. It is completely possible, that the goal has nothing to do anything other than that ... possible, mind you. To dismiss that, is paranoia on an epic scale ... a sort of, "I think it, so it must be right.", paranoia.
 
Better to not go there.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:40:41 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Obviously, we would never invade Canada. Canada is our friend ... but, we do have some things that Canada would want, and would be willing to make a favorable oil exchange, to get.
 
The word "force" was a poor choice on my part.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 10:51:56 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Caitlyn, it's like this - you look at the evidence, you weigh it up and you draw a conclusion (on balance).

The evidence is stacked one way. You claim you're making a case for the other side of the coin - in truth, I'm  not convinced. Then again, we may be missing each other due to a different style of writing.

Thus, in the interests of clarity, give me 3 numbered reasons for the other side of the coin. Put these 3 reasons in no more than 4 or 5 words, then we'll expand upon them.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 11:01:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Why are you questioning those who question the integrity of US foreign policy i.e. what exactly is the other side of the argument?


Why do you question the integrity of US foreign policy? Why shouldn't US foreign policy be in the best interest of the US, at least as it's defined by the politicians chosen by US citizens to represent them?

"Rhetoric" regarding "Islamo fascists"? Is it your position that they don't exist? Are they a created enemy different and distinct from "Right Wing Religious Fanatics"? I don't deny there are "Christian Fascists", even "Jewish Fascists" do you have a different term for those currently killing in the name of Islam in Darfur? Provide it and I'll use it in the future as to not offend the moderate Islamics in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and the other middle eastern countries who only enforce there religious beliefs by not allowing woman to drive cars, and stone them if they are caught in an 'adulterous' relationship.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 11:35:06 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Caitlyn, it's like this - you look at the evidence, you weigh it up and you draw a conclusion (on balance).


Or, you look at the evidence, and conclude that it's still unclear, and/or you may, as a common citizen, not fully know the entire story ... and come to the conclusion that the only smart play in your own mind, is to wait out events and see where they take us ... or perhaps events will make things more clear, or give us more of the whole story.
 
I don't have a crystal ball. There is a chance, even if it's a small one, that Bush/Blair are right, and we are wrong.
 
Three points ...
 
1. Iran did once hold hundreds of Americans hostage ... showing a pattern of intent on some level. Yes, the United States isn't lilly white in that whole mess ... so let's see what happens if Iran invades us.
 
2. Iran supports a bitter enemy of our friend, Israel. That Israel should or should not be a friend, isn't really an issue for the rest of the world to decide. We have the right to have whatever friends we desire, and so does Iran. We are accountable for the result of our friendships, and always have been. We run from no one. Iran, likewise, is accountable for the results of their friendships. If they throw their lot in with our enemies, against our friends, they may be called to pay the piper. This isn't the "Peace and Love World" ... it's the real world, and in the real world, poking a big strong lion with a stick is not going to be a good play ... and nobody is going to feel sorry for you, when you get eaten.
 
3. Enough is enough, in the Middle East. For every instance that can be shown for acting too quickly, I can show two for waiting too long. Waiting too long, and hoping a problem will go away, has killed at least as many people, as rushing to war.
 
Keep in mind these are talking points (as asked for), and may or may not express my real views. I will assume that responses, are to these points, and not made directly to me.

I passed on your five word limit ... that's not realistic to make real points. 

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 2/27/2007 11:39:13 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 1:47:27 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Iraq clearly had weapons of mass destruction at one time, and did use them. Just about every western power has used them at one time, so we can probably spot one when we see one. To be honest, I throw that whole issue into the "maybe" category.
 


Let's kill this weapons of mass destruction nonsense. It was a term made up to appeal to lazy thinkers who are going to hear it and go 'Wow! That man is dangerous!'. It's a nonsensical term. It was a term made up for media consumption. Saddam had chemical and biological weapons, we know he did, the west gave them to him. Much had been found by the inspectors and much was past its shelf life.  No intelligent person (at least in Europe) thought he still had such weapons. Saddam was contained, there was no need to invade. Unless it was for oil that is.   

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 2:03:26 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Unless it was for oil that is. 


With 20/20 hindsight there was no cause for the invasion, and no plan for the occupation to follow.

But MC, the oil argument is just as flawed as the other sides WMD argument. It was easier to get oil being complicit with Saddam, as the examples provided by many of the European nations. More oil was coming out of Iraq pre invasion than post. The Halliburton conspiracy argument carries more weight.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) - 2/27/2007 2:08:01 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Three points ...
 
1. Iran did once hold hundreds of Americans hostage ... showing a pattern of intent on some level. Yes, the United States isn't lilly white in that whole mess ... so let's see what happens if Iran invades us.


The US supported a butcher that brutally oppressed the Iranian people. Once the Iranians had over thrown its oppressor, it wasn't going to look kindly on that oppressor's major supporter. Were any killed? No. The US really should have got over this episode by now but its the same as when the US was kicked out of Cuba, it just can't get past having its nose put out of joint. Get over it!

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
2. Iran supports a bitter enemy of our friend, Israel. That Israel should or should not be a friend, isn't really an issue for the rest of the world to decide. We have the right to have whatever friends we desire, and so does Iran. We are accountable for the result of our friendships, and always have been. We run from no one. Iran, likewise, is accountable for the results of their friendships. If they throw their lot in with our enemies, against our friends, they may be called to pay the piper. This isn't the "Peace and Love World" ... it's the real world, and in the real world, poking a big strong lion with a stick is not going to be a good play ... and nobody is going to feel sorry for you, when you get eaten.
 


If the US was a friend of Israel it would be trying for a lasting peace. The US is using Israel for its own strategic interests. Israel is stupid enough to believe the US's interests are its interests. One day Israel will wake up to find the US gone or impotent in the middle east because of the rise of Russia, China and India, all of who are growing in influence in that part of the world. Israel will still have hostile neighbours having rejected peace for a greater Israel and in belief the USA will always be its insurance policy. Yep, its a big bad world and the US has a record of cutting and running. Israel should think about that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
3. Enough is enough, in the Middle East. For every instance that can be shown for acting too quickly, I can show two for waiting too long. Waiting too long, and hoping a problem will go away, has killed at least as many people, as rushing to war.
  


The real problem in the middle east was Britain allowing Israel to be formed without Arab agreement and through terrorism. Neither the Jews or the Arabs trusted Britain to be fair and after WWII Britain couldn't wait to wash its hands of its mandate and let them get on with it. Cutting and running is never a good option. The new UN was pretty ineffective as well.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/27/2007 2:15:37 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Your Taxdollars at Work ( Who needs enemies? ) Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094