RE: Terri Schiavo (Full Version)

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Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 6:44:14 AM)

quote:

No, instead Terri Schiavo generates a weekend special session of Congress.


I just can't wait until this whole ordeal is over so our elected representatives can back to the work that we elected them to do. Namely, to deal with steroid use in Major League Baseball.

Mod5



MsSilvie -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 7:06:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stormsfate

For those who haven't seen them, but are interested....




I know there really are no winners in this whole situation. It's tragic no matter how you look at it. But short video clips that are cherry picked by her family aren't really diagnostic tools.

It would seem to me if she is as responsive as they claim, all they would have had to ask her to do was indicate through blinking or some other means, to her doctors, that she wants to be sustained, or not.



sweetpleaser -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 7:49:09 AM)

quote:

It would seem to me if she is as responsive as they claim, all they would have had to ask her to do was indicate through blinking or some other means, to her doctors, that she wants to be sustained, or not.


I'm glad you brought this up. She cannot communicate and that is why her husband has every legal right to act on her behalf. No one knows for sure what she had said to him in the past regarding life; it is his responsibility to interpret those thoughts and act accordingly. She obviously trusted him enough with her life to marry him in the first place. Also, if you go to this link, timeline, this money everyone thinks Michael spent was on Terri's care from a lawsuit he filed on her behalf. I do not see anything inappropriate that he has done at all.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 8:55:36 AM)

quote:

Namely, to deal with steroid use in Major League Baseball.


Maybe they will take on a duel issue - Illegal aliens using steroid in Major League Baseball.



stormsfate -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 8:58:49 AM)


ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser

quote:

Just a note about Michael Schiavo. He has a common law wife and children, yes, but remember he has been battling this for 15 years--way before he started his new family. He should not be discounted because of that.


I must have misunderstood then, because I had understood its just been the past seven years that he's been fighting for this. He's moved on...why not just divorce her and leave her to her parents? They were married such a short period of time before this happened and I don't understand his motives. Ah well...its almost over, but its something that will stay with me for a long time. Like Mercnbeth said....I also wish I didn't know about this situation.


f



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 9:23:26 AM)

no no, the thing about the 7 years is that he (Michael) waited 7 years before saying anything about terry's verbal request. What i don't understand is first of all, how can anyone in this day and age go by words in something so major as is life and death...i find that so scary! how can they just assume he is saying the truth, and even if he is saying the truth, it was never in writing, it was not a legal document stating that she would wish to have a feeding tube removed if she were to be disabled.
This whole case is so tragic, I am just hoping she goes as peacefully as possible and that her family is able to find some kind of comfort in knowing they did all they could.

Edited to include this:
i don't understand why he won't just divorce her either and allow her family to make those decisions and care for her.... shouldn't that marriage be null at this point? i just don't get it. He has a new family for like the past 10 years or so, he has kids with his partner, why this need to go against her family's wishes.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 10:59:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Namely, to deal with steroid use in Major League Baseball.

Maybe they will take on a duel issue - Illegal aliens using steroid in Major League Baseball.

[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]Hey Why you picking on the aliens? They can buy their Visas with that much money playing baseball. M



sanita -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 4:46:58 PM)

there are two reasons that came to my mind, as to why Mr. Schiavo may not have divorced Terri. Of course, i don't know if they are accurate, but having had a friend in a similar situation, i know some of what went through her head.

one possibility is that his religion prohibits divorce. maybe, just maybe it would be worse for him to get a divorce in his circles, than it is to "commit adultery"(being in a common law marriage under these circumstances.)

the other is that he knows that if he divorces her, and stops fighting, the wishes of the woman he loves/loved will be ignored because others that love her don't want to let go. i can assure you that if anyone tried to keep my mother alive in a irreversable vegetative state, i would fight them no matter who they were. i know her wishes, and i know she has told many about them. so long as he stays married to her, he has the leverage to fight for her wishes.

i believe this man has shown documents where his wife expressed her wishes regarding a living will. i can't be sure of that, though.

what i did hear on the news last night, from a judge who reviewed these tapes (in full, not just the select clips), that each of these actions taped were not repeated, as much as the stimuli were re-attempted. she only once followed the balloon.

also, i one of the medical consultants on our local news said that in a vegetative state, starvation is actually supposed to be a peaceful way to pass.

this would not be murder, this would not be killing her, this would be letting her die, rather than keeping her alive.

now, how i would hate to be in this situation. how i would never wish it on anyone i loved or hated.

but i totally agree with Mercnbeth's post about being angry. this is personal, and private, and our laws should not be directed by someone's emotional propaganda. either way.

feh, so much for not feeding the fire. *l*



brightspot -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/23/2005 6:31:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten

quote:

I think the thing that bothers me the most about Terri's case, is the fact that politicians feel the need to get involved in it.


The Politicians feel the need to be involved for their own Political Agenda's. Most don't give a shit about Terri the Person.



GordonFreeman -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 2:17:10 AM)

The poor woman died 14 years ago - she is technically alive and nothing more - mri show no brain activity at all in the cerebral cortex - no higher brain functions - no chance for recovery - she is gone - parents need to move on - this article might help to explain misleading video tapes -


Tapes are misleading



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 8:03:35 AM)

In case anyone's interested, these affidavits give a pretty clear picture of this case.


http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/CIyerAffidavit090203.pdf

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/hlawaffidavit.pdf

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/mic-depo.pdf



Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 8:38:38 AM)

Ummm, No it gives a 'clear' one sided perspective. You are lacking the affidavits of the numerous neurologists and other health care professionals who counter these views to the various courts who have decided (in favor of the Husband I might add). There are many countering these, if you were interested to find them. Not to mention the legal issue of his being guardian (rightly or wrongly depending solely on your perspective, of course).

Hence the crux of the issue: It's not clear cut. It's muddled with emotions, legalities, moral superlatives and now - regrettably - politics and grandstanding.

It's a heartwrenching story (hence the media's obsession wtih it) but to say it is 'clear cut' is disingenuous at best.


Just MO of course,
Mod5

PS: edited to add that it is also a good reason one should have a living will, with explicit instructions regarding a DNR preference and one's preference in case we are in this situation. It would spare our loveed ones, the courts and the viewing public the spectacle that this case has become.



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:01:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorFive

Ummm, No it gives a 'clear' one sided perspective. You are lacking the affidavits of the numerous neurologists and other health care professionals who counter these views. There are many countering these, which is why the courts have all ruled in favor of the Husband to this point. Not to mention the legality issues of his being guardian (rightly or wrongly depending solely on your perspective, of course).

Hence the crux of the issue: It's not clear cut. It's muddled with emotions, moral superlatives and now - regrettably - politics and grandstanding.

It's a heartwrenching story (hence the media's obsession wtih it) but to say it is 'clear cut' is disingenuous at best.


Just MO of course,
Mod5


http://www.terrisfight.net/documents.html

There are plenty of affidavits from neurologists on the above link.

I don't claim to know everything about this case only enough to conclude that a human being should not be left to dehydrate and starve, no matter what the circumstances may be.
Of course it's muddled with emotions, how can it not be?
my son had a hermit crab which he left at my moms, she didn't realize it, we didn't either, the poor hermit crab was neglected, we found it some time later out of it's shell all dried up dehydrated and starved....i felt so terrible, so sad for the poor lil creature...the thought of the same thing happening to a human life definately makes my stomach turn, how can it not? I realize that happens all the time, but it doesn't make this situation less tragic.

Edited to include the following:
Really, what I think has bothered me the most about all this is the fact they wont even allow her to be sponged with water, or given ice chips .. she was able to swallow water in the past without gagging...why not let the parents give at least some drops of water ... where's the harm in that?



Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:18:15 AM)

You're presenting your information from two sites whos agenda IS clear.

Honestly, though I feel for the family (meanign the parents and the husband) and can only imagine what this ordeal has done to their lives. The fact remains there is more than one side to this story.

Your mind is obviously made up; your posts in this thread indicate that quite well. When I feel so strongly about a subject, I do my best to read as much as I can from the opposing position before presenting anything as fact, it has served me well throughout years of debate (both organized and informal). Just a friendly suggestion. :)

I do agree that starvation/dehydration is an ugly prospect but euthanasia - meaning a humane injection to end 'suffering' is at this time illegal in the US, and it can be argued that it is a good thing it is illegal (it avoids unscrupulous guardians and undue pressure on the weak/sick). But that's another issue, though certainly there are paralells. The issue of suffering is also more a matter of the suffering of the loved ones (parents/husband/friends) as there has not been any cortical activity within her for 15 years and she feels no suffering; at least that is the concensus among the vast majority of experts describing the damage she suffered to her Cerebral Cortex.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of this case. Personally there are far more issues, touching as this one may be, to which I devote my time and energies. Nor am I naive enough to think that I will change anyone's mind should I wish to (and I don't). I am merely pointing out that you are presenting an argument under the guise of objectivity when it is not nearly as objective as you might think.

Mod5
**my opinon only, yayda yada**



Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:25:49 AM)

quote:

Really, what I think has bothered me the most about all this is the fact they wont even allow her to be sponged with water, or given ice chips .. she was able to swallow water in the past without gagging...why not let the parents give at least some drops of water ... where's the harm in that?


Starvation/dehydration is the only legal manner in which the courts can follow her legal guardians wishes (and, at least according to him) her wishes to die. Allowing rehydration is counter effective. An injection is illegal, so starvation and dehydration is the only option to abide by the courts' rulings.

My prayers go to her parents who will undoubtedly suffer far more than Terri will in the next few weeks during her prolonged death.

Mod5



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:31:37 AM)

i understand what you're trying to say, but i am only giving the links which, unless i missed it, i haven't seen posted. i have seen other links that could be in favor of removing the feeding tube...just wanted to add the other side as well.

i am not consumed with this issue either because i believe it's a useless fight, there are far more imporant things like whales dehydrating on a beach that are in need of a team of volunteers to feed them ice chips and keep them hydrated, and there are trees out there that are in danger of being destroyed, who has the time to bother with a human life?

Anyhow, believe it or not, i too believe this should of been handled between the families and not the courts. Soon she will pass on and all will be forgotten until the next media story hits the air waves and bombardes us with some other controversy that can serve as debate topic.

At least many have become aware of the importance of a living will, i know i sure have!

~hugs~
Babygirl



MsSilvie -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:46:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir

quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorFive

Ummm, No it gives a 'clear' one sided perspective. You are lacking the affidavits of the numerous neurologists and other health care professionals who counter these views. There are many countering these, which is why the courts have all ruled in favor of the Husband to this point. Not to mention the legality issues of his being guardian (rightly or wrongly depending solely on your perspective, of course).

Hence the crux of the issue: It's not clear cut. It's muddled with emotions, moral superlatives and now - regrettably - politics and grandstanding.

It's a heartwrenching story (hence the media's obsession wtih it) but to say it is 'clear cut' is disingenuous at best.


Just MO of course,
Mod5


http://www.terrisfight.net/documents.html

There are plenty of affidavits from neurologists on the above link.

I don't claim to know everything about this case only enough to conclude that a human being should not be left to dehydrate and starve, no matter what the circumstances may be.
Of course it's muddled with emotions, how can it not be?
my son had a hermit crab which he left at my moms, she didn't realize it, we didn't either, the poor hermit crab was neglected, we found it some time later out of it's shell all dried up dehydrated and starved....i felt so terrible, so sad for the poor lil creature...the thought of the same thing happening to a human life definately makes my stomach turn, how can it not? I realize that happens all the time, but it doesn't make this situation less tragic.

Edited to include the following:
Really, what I think has bothered me the most about all this is the fact they wont even allow her to be sponged with water, or given ice chips .. she was able to swallow water in the past without gagging...why not let the parents give at least some drops of water ... where's the harm in that?



No one is going to argue that it's not a tragic situation. If the decision has been made to let someone die, I don't think it should just be due to removing food and water. At the very least, I think she should have enough morphine along the way so that there is no chance she feels anything.

But this poor woman has had 14 years to improve. She hasn't. There are CAT scans of her brain that show a lot of atrophy. I don't even think her parents really believe she will improve, they just don't seem to be able to let go of her body. If that was my daughter, and I felt she could improve, I'd learn how to do therapy with her myself.

I found some interesting, and fairly balanced discussion, about the case here. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/03/20/regarding-the-cat-scan-of-terri-schiavos-brain/

The woman's parents will not present a balanced site in their attempt to prolong her physical life. It's understandable for them to do that. When you look over their site, you have to always keep that in mind. They are very biased.





Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 9:48:15 AM)

quote:

i understand what you're trying to say, but i am only giving the links which, unless i missed it, i haven't seen posted. i have seen other links that could be in favor of removing the feeding tube...just wanted to add the other side as well.


I didn't see any other links supporting the husband & courts, though there were other links regarding other issues/cases. But yes, there has been 'clear cut' innuendos on both sides, and I do not exempt myself from them.. as objective as I try to be. :)

quote:

i am not consumed with this issue either because i believe it's a useless fight, there are far more imporant things like whales dehydrating on a beach that are in need of a team of volunteers to feed them ice chips and keep them hydrated, and there are trees out there that are in danger of being destroyed, who has the time to bother with a human life?


don't forget steroids in major league baseball, the 6th sign of the Apocalypse afterall.. lol

quote:

Anyhow, believe it or not, i too believe this should of been handled between the families and not the courts. Soon she will pass on and all will be forgotten until the next media story hits the air waves and bombardes us with some other controversy that can serve as debate topic.


I don't think the family could have handled this one, it was to dichotomized and emotional to begin with, but the courts are there for a reason (wether we like their rulings or not). What got my goat was the politicians using this as a grandstanding effort. It was nauseating IMO.

quote:

At least many have become aware of the importance of a living will, i know i sure have!


Indeed, and this is perhpas the only positive aspect of this single case, it may prevent more in the future.

{{hug back}}
Mod5

PS: apologies if I sounded at all condescending, it's a bad habit of mine when writing in the absence of inflection and expressions and is unintended.



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 10:03:03 AM)

quote:

PS: apologies if I sounded at all condescending, it's a bad habit of mine when writing in the absence of inflection and expressions and is unintended.


hmmm, my comment was condescending...my appologies as well..i get emotional specially during this time of the month..ahem ahem lol. Anyhow, yes, there are links just look above and you'll see them but anyhow, what does it really matter it won't change anything, i didn't mind the politicians getting involved, don't see why so many were bothered by it, they are there to serve the people, why not get involved if they feel it's imporant? obviously it didn't have any influence in the out come but at least they stood up for something no matter what may have been their motive. i appreciate when they go against the grain, soto speak, and stand up for something, if i agree or not, at least i see they show a human side to them.

~hugs~
Babygirl




Guest -> RE: Terri Schiavo (3/24/2005 12:18:56 PM)

I guess we see it quite differently rbg. I see the behavior of JEB, and especially the Republicans in Congress as pandering to the religious right; especially those in Congress who are attempting to get the right to cover Delay's ass in the recent ethics allegatiosn he's facing. Of course, I'm a cynic <g>

Mod5




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