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RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 11:30:23 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mixielicous

you two are going in circles, just picking a different route each time. i feel each point has clearly been made 10fold and you both are proving to be very stubborn, LOL and both need a spanking for not agreeing to disagree after this many posts teehee



LMAO - you are right and i am done - it's a dead horse at this point and my heads spinning... thanks for the spanking though hehe

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to mixielicous)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 11:30:47 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

My points, which you've misconstrued again, were that children should not grow up around unnecessary fighting.

Huh? Did you read what i wrote to dawn"Quite the contrary, Aqua's statements were for advocating UMs NOT grow up around any kind of fighting, arguing, etc"

Cheating does not have to occur in a relationship....  Never said it did.   regardless of whatever happened that person made the choice to cheat.  By that logic you can say - no matter what happened so and so killed Mr.X, they made the choice to kill him, no need for judges, jury or trial - murder is murder - cut and dried, black and white - interesting society we'd all be walking on tightropes, dying of ulcers hoping we never got into trouble!

In so doing, they made the both (much like picking up a bottle of rum) to further problems already in the house. That is a selfish act regardless of the acts committed by both spouses that led up to it.



Not wanting children to grow up around unneeded fighting is very different then saying "Aqua's statements were for advocating UMs NOT grow up around any kind of fighting, arguing, etc"

And no. You want to hold adults responsible when it's suitable for your position. The spouse who was cheated on must be held accountable for being emotional distinct/angry that their spouse keeps flirting with others/not interested in sex anymore/whatever. If you are going hold them responsible for that, fine. Great in fact. We should. But we should also hold the other adult responsible for bringing more problems into the relationship and into the family then were there beforehand. I have yet to see you say that any cheater, under any circumstances, has any responsiblity for what they have done.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 11:37:41 AM   
texancutie


Posts: 322
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		I don't advocate stringing anyone up...and to be totally honest, I have no insight into what is going on in a couple's personal life. So to each his own, is what I say.  No arguement whatsoever, as life is so very short.  What happens happens.  I never throw stones unless someone is a real abuser or a complete asshole.

Edited to add.....we can assume all we want, but do we ever really have all the information we need when we reply to threads that are started?  Usually no...lol. 

< Message edited by texancutie -- 3/12/2007 11:41:56 AM >

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 1:01:41 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		PS  (and all the bolding is mine)  I just wanna reiterate some stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

…
If you aren't happy with your relationship, you need to leave...if you aren't willing to leave, shut up and stop whining about what you are not getting. Nothing is more annoying that someone who whines about how miserable they are but lacks the fortitude to stand up and make a tough decision so they can be happy.

I think sex is critically important. I would never stay in a relationship where I was sexually unfulfilled.

Way to go GG!! 

And, I’ve gotta say I agree with AquaSub on this point:  two wrongs dont make a right.  ALL relationships take work; people forget that part.  Communication isnt always easy…but for relationships to last, it needs to happen.  And, regularly! 
quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
First of all, the UM argument is an excuse. Plenty of us were raised by divorced parents. A divorce won't kill them and they will probably be healthier by NOT being raised in a loveless environment.
...
  
Again I agree with GeekyGirl.  I'm the product of a 'broken home'...and believe me, I'm here to tell you we were a LOT better off when they split!   I wish people would, when staying together for the children, consider what they're likely teaching the kids; that marriage is loveless and cold, people in them are unhappy, don't share or show affection towards each other and basically don't like nor trust one another, that silences are better than arguments  Nice, huh?  No wonder some of us struggle in relationships; some of us had no role-models.   (Personally, I like arguments; sans the fistfights.  There ARE ways to disagree and argue, in very respectful tones, even.)    I raised my kid as a single parent.  It was hard but we both survived it; far better, I believe, than the alternative.  Why people think that staying in a relationship like I just described is easier than raising kids alone, or even going on welfare, Ill never know.  
 
I agree with benji on the definition of cheating...it's anything you must hide from your partner.  I'd rather have a relationship where my partner can talk to me about anything (even wanting to bowl with someone else), than one where he hid things (even about bowling).  Still, these are MY thoughts only; we are having a discussion here.  I don't 'out' others for their thoughts, beliefs or actions; nor do I particularly care...if it doesn't directly involve me. 
 
Besides, like many have pointed out...there ARE degrees of 'wrong' and greys of cheating.  I've cheated, as I said...so who am I to tell people how to behave?  I thought we were just having a discussion.
 
OH, and:
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
...
What I keep seeing is a subtle justifications of doing something wrong. Personally if i was seeing someone that told me they had cheated in the past and attempted to justify it with all the excuses I see on this thread I would dismiss that person. If they said "Hey, I was wrong, and there is no justifying being a cheater" I would think at least this person owns his mistakes.

This thread is teaching me something, when I make little mistakes and try to explain myself and in the same breath I apologize for it this really irks my Daddy, I finally see why. I bet he thinks if I was really sorry I would not be making excuses for it, I would just own it.
...
 
Me tooooooooo!!!  That was a GREAT observation, kiddo!  I’m going to remember that! 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildnfreehrt2004

Living life with a few black and whites does makes for fewer grays. Values like not cheating are not easy to have - they require doing the right thing when no one is looking and when it doesn't always benefit your wants to follow them. Doing the right thing is hard - this is why we make superheroes out of people who always do the right thing. This is why we consider values to be valuable/have value. …
Wildy
We are defined by the choices we make, and those we don't make. Life is a series of choices, if you aren't happy with your life, make different choices, not excuses.
  
LOVELY!!!  Thank you. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
…
Partners are "cheated" the first time a desire or thought goes unspoken between them. Denial of the opportunity by silence for fear of consequence indicates that you and your partner have never felt comfortable being "naked" in front of each other. Communicating freely converts "cheating" into opportunity for growth. The "perfect" kind of growth between people, in my opinion, is growth within the relationship. And "cheating" yourself out of that opportunity definitely meets the criteria of CIAW. 
 
Yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 
 
Okay, and one last thing from me.  This whole thread, yes, all of it…has been educational for me.  If for no other reason than the one to whom I feel I belong has read it and my responses and we are discussing the topic.  While the fact that we agree is wonderful, I think discussion is always good.  I remember a little quote I had hanging on my fridge for the longest time: 


I know you love me, but don’t take my word for it…insist on giving proof! 


For me, such proof is ongoing dialogue.
 
Okay...I'll quit now. 

Edited to add:
ewwwwwwwwwwwwww!  Where did all that jibberish come from?   Sorry, can't see it here in 'edit', but apparently elipsis don't work with that font!   SORRY

< Message edited by Bearlee -- 3/12/2007 1:16:02 PM >

(in reply to texancutie)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 1:43:18 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		cheating is wrong period... just like when a wife is abused people say nothing she did deserved him hitting her the same here nothing the other spouse does warent or excuses the other spouse cheating eather way you look at it its abuse one is physical and the other emotional.. Yeah I know maybe the other spouse did something wrong but the ends to justafy the means period.

Magik'sslave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 2:02:08 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

cheating is wrong period


Save yourself the typing, all you have to say is "CIAW."

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 2:14:24 PM   
denika


Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline 		CIAW......

my first responce to that  article was, dear god  that is an angry person!! then the second was, let me gues,  he cheated, got caught and it blew up.....

when has lying to someone been acceptable? In the end it's not about the sex or the lack of  it's the inability to be honest.  Put the shoe on the other foot, how would the other feel if the actions were turned around?      If you can't talk to your spouce/partner about desires and fantasies maybe  ask why you feel the topic can't be talked about.  Divorce is an ugly thing but so is making each other miserable and living lies......... Yes I am doing the 'soap box thing' and sorry  about that, there has been thirteen pages behind me of simular statements but shouldn't that make a point? It's not about moral high ground it's just about having a sense of morality. Not to mention a tiny bit of common curtesy.


denika

edited for really bad spelling

< Message edited by denika -- 3/12/2007 2:16:52 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 2:15:21 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

cloudboy

have been on these forums for about 16 months. As regulars here know, subjects recycle, one of which is "what should the distracted married person do with his or her BDSM inclinations?" For me this is a complex question which defies easy answers or straightforward moral platitudes.

Thanks to Dan Savage, though, I have a new brilliantly coined term which might help me and others in future debates:

Here is a quote from the remainder of the article which "cloudboy" did not feel inclined to quote from:
quote:

Dan Savage
That said, SOTS, I'm not gonna give you a pass. You're not done with sex, he's not dying, you don't have kids—cheating under your particular circumstances can't be justified. Regardless of what happens with your coworker, SOTS, you need to end this relationship. You're not all that attracted to your boyfriend emotionally or physically, and you don't have the kind of entanglements—biological or durational—to rationalize having a fuck buddy. You need to do the right thing, SOTS, and break up with this guy.

Possibly if someone loses interest in sex, or there is a horrible illness or condition or maybe there are kids involved "you" can justify cheating....However, outside of an "illness or condition" I would always ask someone "what are you guilty of?", where does "your reponsibility lie" that caused your relationship to fail?

At the end of the day my opinion means very little.  I am a hypocrite...In progress...the only person I answer to is me.  What do I see at the end of the day when I look in the mirror?

Dan Savage is not giving someone a "free pass" to cheat he's saying there are a few grey areas...But to quote you..

quote:

cloudboy

what should the distracted married person do with his or her BDSM inclinations?


What do you think Dan Savage's response would be to this question?

But I know that by being deceptive or honest about these "inclinations" is probably not the "brave" path.
Maybe your wife or significant other is in a coma...then do what you gotta do.

I have always thought that people who discuss their "indiscretions" shows a lack of character....If you are going to "cheat" take it to your death bed and don't bother others over your guilt and remorse.

But again since this is a resurrected post let me reaffirm what I have said in the past...When it comes to relationships most of us have the "inner voice" that speaks to us....Very few of us are "blind sided" by the actions of our loved ones...In other words we saw it coming and failed to act...Or by the lack of our own actions we allowed the things to happen (please don't post with the exceptions, illness etc).

As we get older we should certainly learn to wise up....I have..And I am continually battling my demons..But denying culpability or the fact that my actions have ramifications shows a lack of conscience or the ability to empathize with others.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/12/2007 3:15:16 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 248
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 2:32:28 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		domiguy: If it was, the moderators would have removed it. I am sure that, being moderators, they are more than capable of making a judgment call. I am sure by now, that they took into consideration the word was included as part of a post that was given as an introdcution to the subject mattter of the topic are, on what has proved to be a very popular thread that may have been helpful to many folks out there. No exceptions for you, eh? You are a black-and-white thinker, in all cases, then?

Or is it simply the subject matter you are not fond of? Because if you aren't, you do have other options. I am not trying to be mean, and I generally like your posts when I read them, but - I just see this kind of thing so often. It isn't fair - bottom line. If you don't want to post on  a thread, and are sick of the fact it exists, your option is to not read it.

I sincerely doubt that cloudboy is corrupting the entire bdsm world, simply by posting a thread on a topic about which there exist varying opinions. If he was using it to corrupt your own monogamous submissive, for instance, by e-mailing her material and books on this topic, then I might see the point. But that is obviously not what is happening here. At all. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/12/2007 3:30:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 3:16:02 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Above post edited for clarity.

First off by quoting Dan Savage it does give you the ability to call your detractors "Fuckwads" ...Not exactly within TOS.

quote:

cloudboy

have been on these forums for about 16 months. As regulars here know, subjects recycle, one of which is "what should the distracted married person do with his or her BDSM inclinations?" For me this is a complex question which defies easy answers or straightforward moral platitudes.

Thanks to Dan Savage, though, I have a new brilliantly coined term which might help me and others in future debates:

Here is a quote from the remainder of the article which "cloudboy" did not feel inclined to "use" 




quote:

Dan Savage (SOTS is the person he is responding to)

That said, SOTS, I'm not gonna give you a pass. You're not done with sex, he's not dying, you don't have kids—cheating under your particular circumstances can't be justified. Regardless of what happens with your coworker, SOTS, you need to end this relationship. You're not all that attracted to your boyfriend emotionally or physically, and you don't have the kind of entanglements—biological or durational—to rationalize having a fuck buddy. You need to do the right thing, SOTS, and break up with this guy.


Possibly if someone loses interest in sex, or there is a horrible illness or condition or maybe there are kids involved "you" can justify cheating....However, outside of an "illness or condition" I would always ask someone "what are you guilty of?", where does "your reponsibility lie" that caused your relationship to fail?

At the end of the day my opinion means very little.  I am a hypocrite...In progress...the only person I answer to is me.  What do I see at the end of the day when I look in the mirror?

Dan Savage is not giving someone a "free pass" to cheat he's saying there are a few grey areas...But to quote you..
quote:

cloudboy

what should the distracted married person do with his or her BDSM inclinations?


What do you think Dan Savage's response would be to this question?

But I know that by being deceptive about these "inclinations" is probably not the honest path.
Maybe your wife or significant other is in a coma...then do what you gotta do.

I have always thought that people who discuss their "indiscretions" shows a lack of character....If you are going to "cheat" take it to your death bed and don't bother others over your guilt and remorse.

But again since this is a resurrected post let me reaffirm what I have said in the past...When it comes to relationships most of us have the "inner voice" that speaks to us....Very few of us are "blind sided" by the actions of our loved ones...In other words we saw it coming and failed to act...Or by the lack of our own actions we allowed the things to happen (please don't post with the exceptions, illness etc).

As we get older we should certainly learn to wise up....I have. I am continually battling my demons....But denying culpability or the fact that my actions have ramifications shows a lack of conscience or the ability to empathize with others.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/12/2007 5:15:16 PM >

_____________________________

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/12/2007 3:44:21 PM >

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(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 4:54:47 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		domiguy: I agree people should only do what they can live with. He did refer people to it, and I read that part, too. He's a lawyer - he is only trying to start a dialogue, and he's aware 2 sides exist here, as far as how people view this topic. He did refer people to the entire article, even if he cited one part - it is all there if people want to read it, and it is pretty long. I almost always try to read the whole thing anyway, it's a personal quirk (maybe not everyone does this). 

Anyway***
In the name of reading information about the topic, I dug up some research on "cheating" because I thought some might find it interesting to read.

My conclusion: Right, wrong, or right or wrong, and in certain circumstances only - somebody out there is obviously doing it. Keep in mind that, given the nature of the questions most likely used to gather this research, and the topic matter, the stats are probably higher (maybe a lot higher).

Here's the link:

http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/infidelitystats.html

*I found the conclusions toward the bottom especially interesting (the last 6 "bulleted" parts).

**What it said in a nutshell is this: If these stats are true, that affairs of some kind happen in 40-80% of marriages, then it might be more realisitc to draw the conclusion that humans are prone to cheat, rather than to conclude that having it happen is always, always due to the inherent failure of perfection in human beings.

Which wouldn't make it right in every case, or wrong in every case, would be my guess. Because moral judgments are not attached to stats. However, I do think they can point to some interesting conclusions about the topic.

Of course that blanket statement is only going to be valid in a situational context - because every relationship is of course different - different people, and different circumstances, IMO. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/12/2007 5:50:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Llyren)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 4:57:16 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		It might be my pc, but i could not get the link to work. 

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~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:00:57 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Try it again, I fixed it (sorry about that).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/12/2007 5:01:10 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:02:21 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks! 

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:08:44 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you, Susan.  Very interesting.  "5 percent of married men and 3 percent of married women reported having sex with someone other than their spouse in the year1997."  i am very curious about that statistic only because it points out the year 1997 as if there is some significance to that. 

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:11:05 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Read the part toward the very bottom of the link. They are sort of "conclusions" on the stats - I thought they were fascinating. Especiallly the last 6 "bulleted" parts.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/12/2007 5:12:49 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:24:41 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		ooohhh... funny thing about reading the entire article.  (Blonde moment).  Thanks.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:28:56 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Well it is kinda along (really long, in fact). And stats can be kinda dry (I can sometimes like 'em though, because I do consider them by themselves to be objective data of some sort (still can be skewed, but this particular page has data on like 10 different studies.) So I say: "Skip to the good part - the end", hehe. It took my ten minutes to discover it myself (which is why I just mentioned it sorry)  - it is a loooong page of "data".

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/12/2007 5:31:11 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:34:36 PM   
Quivver


Posts: 1953
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

CIAW is something I choose to subscribe to, but how I define "Cheating" may point to a compromise.

I quantify the "worst" form of cheating is the one you perpetrate on yourself. The lie you need to tell yourself every day when you wake up in order to face a rationalized life dooms you to a sad existence. Ignoring the facts before you to avoid confronting a physically, emotionally, or mentally cheating partner for the sake of the UMs, social standing, or personal comfort puts you on the same level in my eyes. Whenever there is thread on the most desired traits of a partner on this site integrity and honesty are always at the top of the list. Without a CIAW philosophy I believe it impossible to expect to get or give representation of those desired personality traits.

But CIAW comes into play within relationships that you wouldn't expect. The spouse who prior to marriage was open and willing to "do it all" but as a spouse does nothing has "cheated". The partner who accepted the "poly" desires of the other during courtship, but throws a blanket of guilt over any reference to the act "cheated".

My point is that physical "cheating" is the least offensive form of the act. When it gets to the act most likely the "cheating" has been going on long before. Partners are "cheated" the first time a desire or thought goes unspoken between them. Denial of the opportunity by silence for fear of consequence indicates that you and your partner have never felt comfortable being "naked" in front of each other. Communicating freely converts "cheating" into opportunity for growth. The "perfect" kind of growth between people, in my opinion, is growth within the relationship. And "cheating" yourself out of that opportunity definitely meets the criteria of CIAW.


Once again Merc you have hit the nail on the head.  Thank You.


_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: CIAW - 3/12/2007 5:47:24 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i dont understand what the fucking problem with just admitting its wrong?

Cheating IS wrong.

Ok........... so you've done something wrong

Are you going to burn in hell? Doubtful

Lying is wrong... we all do that

Speeding is illegal.. most of us all do that.

What the fuck is so wrong with actually being able to ADMIT you are wrong about something?

CHEATING IS ALWAYS WRONG... yet i've done it. A whole hellavue alot when i was younger. i was wrong.... ooo big deal.. so what... (gonna burn in hell here)

It always amazes me watching people swear up and down about how "right" they are. Making excuse after excuse after excuse.. when all their doing (is not proving their point fyi) is just making themselves lose more face. One of these days, i'll actually run into some one who can say "ya know what, i did it, and yeah it was wrong"

Congratufuckinglations. Some one was able to stand up and actually be an adult and take responsiblity for themselves.



I've said it...didn't kill me. Did help me become more at peace with myself. Always reminds me not to look down on others...family or friends...who come to me and tell me that they are. I offer them advice if they ask for it, consolation if they need it, and one reminder...I won't help them do it.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 260
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