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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:29:14 PM   
puella


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Sanity, Joe Wilson was 100% correct.  There was no purchase of yellow cake uranium in Niger.  The papers were the crudest of forgeries.  Do you do any research at all?

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(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:30:17 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're working yourself into a lather over nothing, and it is funny as hell to me...

[


It's not "funny as hell" to me....Fuck no! If you're in a lather ...I'm cuming over....I've got an undercover CIA op in my pants called the "Domidong"....and it needs "outing" real bad....

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:30:26 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

It's been proven that neither the President nor the Vice-President had anything to do with "outing" her,


When?



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:32:39 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Are you saying the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is a "Leftist Website"?



What's the matter, farglebargle. Are you having trouble focusing today? Or is a straw man argument your only hope.


Aren't you the one taking a website to task for REPRINTING an Official United States Congress document?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:34:23 PM   
Sanity


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I'm really not your type, as I'm not into disciplining men. And besides, I don't have a magnifying glass OR a pair of tweezers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You're working yourself into a lather over nothing, and it is funny as hell to me...

[


It's not "funny as hell" to me....Fuck no! If you're in a lather ...I'm cuming over....I've got an undercover CIA op in my pants called the "Domidong"....and it needs "outing" real bad....

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:36:10 PM   
Sanity


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I've done enough research to know that Joe Wilson is a fraud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Sanity, Joe Wilson was 100% correct.  There was no purchase of yellow cake uranium in Niger.  The papers were the crudest of forgeries.  Do you do any research at all?

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:36:27 PM   
RWAble


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Of the worse kind
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

FR

For those who believe that Joe Wilson and his wife Valarie Plame are partisan hacks... I will remind all of you there was no niger yellowcake, we were lied to about wmd, and they have never found any wmd. I think the facts support the Wilson family... the case for war was fabricated.. and we KNOW that Bush Co are nothing but partisan hacks


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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:37:45 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I've done enough research to know that Joe Wilson is a fraud.


Handwaving, huh? So you have no evidence, eh?

I can show you FOURTEEN OVERT ACTS committed by the Bush Administrations commission of crimes against 18 USC 371.

Meanwhile, y'all just attack the guy.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/17/2007 1:39:16 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:43:06 PM   
Sanity


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I've learned that when I present absolute proof, Libs on this website come back with some web page like www.pure_leftist_fantasies.com and a mouth full personal attacks, straw man arguments and other blatant distortions, farglebargle - and so why bother.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I've done enough research to know that Joe Wilson is a fraud.


Handwaving, huh? So you have no evidence, eh?



(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:43:07 PM   
puella


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ArizonaSunSwitch,

Allow me to correct your errors:

The yellow cake uranium documents have been conclusively named as forgeries (I will provide you with an American and British news link):
 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/butler/story/0,,1256887,00.html

(edited to add a link from Fox News for all the doubting Neo-Cons)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92260,00.html


I am not wholly certain of the exact age of the Wilson twins, but as they were infants when Joe Wilson was sent to Africa in 2002, they can be no more than 5... I hardly think they are bragging to their buddies at school...

Also, as I pointed out in an earlier thread on this subject, Federal Prosecutor Fitzgerald, in an official statement, debunked that precious piece of fallacy. His investigations proved that her friends and neighbors outside of the CIA had no idea what she did.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_875272/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

Richard Armitage was the first of several people in a very short amount of time to leak Wilson's identity.  Libby was another.  If you have a problem with his conviction, you shall just have to weep in your cup because he was convicted in a fair trial, the jury of his peers having been selected by both the prosecution and the defense.  He was convicted, of course, of perjury and obstruction of justice, not leaking.

Lastly, no, driving into Langley does not make you covert.  The CIA has to classify you as a covert agent, which they did, and which the head of the CIA has testified, more than once, is the actual rank for Valerie Wilson.






< Message edited by puella -- 3/17/2007 2:32:27 PM >


_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:44:04 PM   
RWAble


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Bush and Cheney are walking, talking criminals. They violate the Constitution and the American people with every breathe they take.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I've done enough research to know that Joe Wilson is a fraud.


Handwaving, huh? So you have no evidence, eh?

I can show you FOURTEEN OVERT ACTS committed by the Bush Administrations commission of crimes against 18 USC 371.

Meanwhile, y'all just attack the guy.




_____________________________

When the Yankees leave Florida, then we can be free.

Life is a voyage, not a destination.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:46:52 PM   
farglebargle


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Perhaps because what you consider "Absolute Proof" is of course an abstraction.

There is no "Absolute Truth", which is why our criminal legal standard is, "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"...

But y'all don't even have evidence reaching that standard, do you, hence the "Handwaving"?

It's ok. We all understand how hard it is for someone to accept that they've been suckered in by a bunch of criminals.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 1:53:03 PM   
puella


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Pray tell, Sanity, who provided a link to that site?  The majority of my links are to internationally recognized journalistic entities. The one that has your panties in a twist, as farglebargle pointed out, had hardly any contributary text at all and was used to convey the official letter sent by the committee Chairman (for which the link to the entire, official letter was provided in the body of that short article).

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 2:11:56 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

puella,

It's pertinent in this case.  I think there is good evidence that both her and her husband acted and said many of the things they did for purely party partisan reasons.

FirmKY



I usually can get a handle on where you are coming from....This time you are way "out there!"

To establish that someone would "lie" or would not report their findings because of party affiliations is rediculous.  If Joe Wilson lied, and there was uranium purchased that would be unbelievable! This is the problem with the political divide, you so dislike the Democrats that you think they would put their Country at risk to embarrass the President.

By your argument if a Dem is elected Pres...No Republican should ever be allowed hold any power in the military, secret service(Because no self respecting Republican would ever take a bullet for some liberal Democrat President) or the CIA.  They would just be biding their time to sabotage his tenure-- to Hell with whatever the consequences, terrorist attack, assasination attempt...It's a rediculous notion...And Congressman Westmoreland should apologize!  What are we going to come to....General asks,.."Are you an American,'' soldier?" ..."No Sir...I am a Republican?"

It should be noted that they were both respected and trusted Government employees...that is what should go into the record.

Now if  Congressman Westmoreland would like to put into the record hat he has no idea what are the "Ten Commandments" he should feel free....lol.


I don't find it surprsing that you and others are making some of the claims, and have some of the blind spots you seem to be having.

It's often difficult to see through one's own prejudices.

You are also claiming I said things, and that I'm making statements that I haven't.

I haven't said anything about anyone "lying".  I haven't said that they would lie because of their party affiliation.

But we all see and react and believe based on our basic belief systems, and sympathies.  When someone makes the claim (sorry puella) that they have no biases ... that they are simply "reporting the facts of a story", it indicates the possibility of self-deception. 

We can try to be non-biased, and we should recognize how our sympathies can affect how we frame things, certainly, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that we are "unbiased".

This is true about we forum members, as it is of Joe Wilson and Valeris Plame.  This is especially true of them because his job was political in nature, and of her because of her relationship with him.

I'm not condemning them, just trying to see their biases, and well as my own - and yours, and puella's.

I think there are some valid questions about how they have both framed things.  What they have claimed as facts, and how they have acted.  That's all I'm saying. 

Your attempt to make my simple comments quoted above something about not trusting any person who isn't a member of your party in government is a weak Reductio ad absurdum attack on my permise.

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 2:18:28 PM   
Sanity


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Uhm... that isn't a real website puella - sorry, I was being facetious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Pray tell, Sanity, who provided a link to that site? 

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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 2:24:44 PM   
puella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I've done enough research to know that Joe Wilson is a fraud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Sanity, Joe Wilson was 100% correct.  There was no purchase of yellow cake uranium in Niger.  The papers were the crudest of forgeries.  Do you do any research at all?



Why is Joe Wilson a fraud?  In what manner?

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 2:39:10 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Sanity, Joe Wilson was 100% correct.  There was no purchase of yellow cake uranium in Niger.  The papers were the crudest of forgeries.  Do you do any research at all?

True the document turned out to be a forgery but it was discovered after the presidents state of the union speach.



The Wilsons pitched Ambassador Munchausen's fable to Kristof and he bought it with the same degree of faith that won Walter Duranty (and the New York Times) a Pulitzer prize for publishing every lie Stalin's propagandists fed him. The very gullible Kristof cobbled the Wilsons' bogus concoction into an article in the New York Times, published on May 6, 2003. In that article Kristof stated:

"Consider the now-disproved claims by President Bush and Colin Powell that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger so it could build nuclear weapons. As Seymour Hersh noted in The New Yorker, the claims were based on documents that had been forged so amateurishly that they should never have been taken seriously. I'm told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president's office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger. In February 2002, according to someone present at the meetings, that envoy reported to the C.I.A. and State Department that the information was unequivocally wrong and that the documents had been forged."

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence disposed of Wilson's fable on pages 443 - 444 of the report:

... The plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA employee. The former ambassador's wife suggested her husband for the trip to Niger in February 2002.

... On February 12, 2002, the former ambassador's wife sent a memorandum to a Deputy Chief of a division in the CIA's Directorate of Operations which said, "[m]y husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity."

... Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided.

... The former ambassador told Committee staff that he, in fact, did not have access to any of the names and dates in the CIA's reports and said he may have become confused about his own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in March 2003 that the names and dates on the documents were not correct. Of note, the names and dates in the documents that the IAEA found to be incorrect were not names or dates included in the CIA reports.

... While the CIA responded to the Vice President's request for the Agency's analysis, they never provided the information gathered by the former Ambassador.

... The Committee found that, for most analysts, the former ambassador's report lent more credibility, not less, to the reported Niger- Iraq uranium deal. [emphasis added]

More importantly Joe didnt expose the forgery's till after the goverment did

Then there were the faked memos about Saddam’s efforts to buy uranium from Niger that Wilson bragged he had spotted as forgeries before the government did – except he didn’t see them until after the government had already dismissed them as phonies.
 
In fact there was yellow cake in Iraq..

What were 500 tons of yellow cake uranium still doing at the nuclear research center of Al—Tuwaitha in Iraq when American tanks rolled into Bagdhad?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/07/about_that_500_tons_of_yellow.html

So it was not unthinkable that Saddam was in fact looking to get his hands on more.

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 2:52:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

It's part of what I mentioned to you in the other thread.  Some people (on both sides of the ideological divide) won't let facts get in the way of a good story that reinforces their pre-existing beliefs.

The only thing I'll ask you is: 

Did she say she was outed as a covert CIA operative by the Novak story?

Did "many others" outside the CIA know she worked for the CIA before that occurred?

If the facts show both sentences to be true ... then she is at best dissembling, and the question becomes "why?"

If you are willing to look at those questions, and answer that "why" honestly, then you may convince me you aren't suffering from a form of BDS.


1.  Yes, she did,under oath.
2.  Only those with security clearance.

Honestly, I do not follow your logic after that point.


I am not willing to be swayed by anything without facts FirmhandKY.



1.  Amicus Curiae brief filed by news media organizations

On March 23, 2005, 36 news organizations, including ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, AP, Newsweek, Reuters America, the Washington Post and the Tribune Company, filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington. In this brief these organizations contend that there is "serious doubt" that there was a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act because of unsubstantiated news reports that Valerie Plame didn't meet the criteria of a "covert" agent and that her status as a CIA agent was known to both the Russian and Cuban intelligence operations prior to the Novak article.

Page ten, paragraph two, of the Amici Curiae Brief filed by the 36 major news organizations cites Robert Novak's report that he called the C.I.A. to determine whether Valerie Plame is an agency employee and received confirmation that she was. If Robert Novak's report is true and if that information was classified, Novak did not have the security clearance required to receive that information.




2.  CIA officer named prior to column  (Washington Times)

The identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame was compromised twice before her name appeared in a news column that triggered a federal illegal-disclosure investigation, U.S. officials say.

    Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a Moscow spy, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

    In a second compromise, officials said a more recent inadvertent disclosure resulted in references to Mrs. Plame in confidential documents sent by the CIA to the U.S. Interests Section of the Swiss Embassy in Havana.  

   The documents were supposed to be sealed from the Cuban government, but intelligence officials said the Cubans read the classified material and learned the secrets contained in them, the officials said.




3.  JOE WILSON, HUSBAND OF THE UNMASKED CIA AGENT VALERIE PLAME, SAYS THERE HAVE BEEN THREATS AGAINST HER  "60 MINUTES SUNDAY" (Drudge)

Wilson tells Bradley [of CBS's 60 minutes] , contrary to reports that many knew Plame was in the CIA, that only he and three other people knew. "Well, very few people outside the intelligence community [knew she was CIA]. Her parents and her brother, essentially," says Wilson.

Interesting side note: 60 minutes transcript:

“But, once you were married, you had to join this cover. I mean, you couldn't tell your family, your friends,” Bradley asked.

“No. The day that Mr. Novak's article appeared, my sister-in-law turned to my brother and said, ‘Do you think Joe knew?’ So, not even my brother or my sister-in-law or any of my immediate family knew,” Wilson recalled.




4.  Larry King Live CNN Nov 1 2005

PATRICK FITZGERALD, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR IN CIA LEAK INVESTIGATION: Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July, 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14, 2003 but Mr. Novak was not the first reporter to be told that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, Ambassador Wilson's wife Valerie worked at the CIA. Several other reporters were told.



5.  I've heard some interesting things out of her testimony yesterday, but as of yet, have no transcript, so I'll hold those comments and cites until I do, and have a chance to review that material.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/17/2007 3:11:11 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 5:28:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


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And another reason to suspect some partisan political motives on the Wilson/Plame pair:



1. KERRY'S FOREIGN FOLLIES: STANDING BY JOE (NY Post) Deborah Orin   Jul 29, 2004:
[Joe Wilson] claimed President Bush lied about whether Saddam Hussein was seeking yellowcake uranium from Niger, and Wilson knew it because the CIA sent him there. The Senate report says, if anything, the truth is the opposite of what Wilson claimed.

That doesn't seems to bother the Kerryites, who yesterday hailed Wilson's "integrity" and said he's still very much a part of the team that [John Kerry] hopes will make him commander in chief. "Joe Wilson has served for many months as an informal adviser to the Kerry campaign and continues to do so," said Kerry foreign policy adviser Susan Rice.
and ...



2. Spouse of outed CIA officer signs on with Kerry  By Joseph Curl, The Washington Times:

Joseph C. Wilson, a former Clinton appointee whose unsubstantiated charge that senior White House officials leaked the identity of his CIA officer wife and prompted a grand jury probe, has taken a prominent role in the presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry.

    The career diplomat and senior director for Africa policy for the National Security Council during the Clinton administration has campaigned for the Democratic presidential front-runner in at least six states. Mr. Wilson has also been offering the Massachusetts candidate speechwriting tips.
and ...



3. In probe of CIA leak, two sides see politics Patrick Healy and Wayne Washington, October 2, 2003, Boston Globe:
WASHINGTON -- The political relationships of two key figures in the dispute over whether a Bush administration aide leaked the identity of a CIA operative took center stage yesterday, as members of both parties contended that the case could be tainted by politics.

Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, who said a Bush aide disclosed that his wife is a CIA operative in retaliation for his criticism of the Iraq war, has worked since May as an unpaid adviser to Senator John F. Kerry, offering foreign policy advice and speechwriting tips to the Democratic presidential candidate from Massachusetts.

And, while I'm not making any claims that Wilson lied, the fact is that another Kerry advisor was convicted of commiting crimes during the Kerry campaign:

Key Kerry adviser resigns  David E. Sanger, New York Times (via SFGate) Wednesday, July 21, 2004:

Washington -- Sandy Berger, the national security adviser to former President Bill Clinton, resigned Tuesday as a senior adviser to John Kerry's presidential campaign after the disclosure that he had improperly removed classified materials on terrorism from a secure government reading room last year.


So ... I do think that the political affilations of both Wilson and Plame are valid questions for the Republican members to ask about.

FirmKY

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? H... - 3/17/2007 5:36:05 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

What's the matter, farglebargle. Are you having trouble focusing today? Or is a straw man argument your only hope. Of course I didn't say that, quit acting so silly.



You did, actually.  You stated that something reported on what you consider a "fringe website" like rawstory.com was fiction.  The website posted a transcript of a congressional document.

Therefore, by your own words, congress is fiction.

Please make a note of this.

Sinergy

p.s.  Regarding your contention that any story which is oppositional to the President and his lack of following the Constitution, failure to perform the duties he took an oath to perform, etc., is partisan just seems ignorant to me.

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 80
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