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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 3:51:34 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I wish I truly had the knowledge of the ENTIRE situation over there so that I could make a more informed comment, but the fact remains that almost everyone has an agenda and I cannot tell who does or does not have one.



When a country invades another country without provocation, it is quite clear which country has the agenda.

Strange how many dictatorships the USA and Britain have saved from other dictatorships. It isn't difficult to work out why, it's not even high school level of thinking.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 3:57:35 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think it would be easier, if "the right thing to do" were more clear. What we mostly get, is accusations about going in the first place. All true points, but well past pointless now. We are there.
 
Then you see events such as the captured British soldiers ... captured in international waters, not long after Britain announces that it will soon be withdrawing troops from Iraq. Iran is now apparently contemplating a trial for these people ... all the while, people aren't completely sure that the actual legitimate Iranian government is behind this whole thing.
 
Who is our model for how to handle these sorts of events? The Romans would invade, and probably crucify 15,000 Iranians ... and insisted that if more troops were taken, it would be times 10K next time. The Byzantines would have sent money to the political rivals of the current Iranian government, sent in assassins with poison for good measure, and paid Iran's rivals to blown up the Iranian oil fields.
 
Somehow, those don't seem like reasonable options.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 3:59:51 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		There is more than just one agenda. I am talking all the various politcal parties and entities, including all the news sources and researchers.

Orion



quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I wish I truly had the knowledge of the ENTIRE situation over there so that I could make a more informed comment, but the fact remains that almost everyone has an agenda and I cannot tell who does or does not have one.



When a country invades another country without provocation, it is quite clear which country has the agenda.

Strange how many dictatorships the USA and Britain have saved from other dictatorships. It isn't difficult to work out why, it's not even high school level of thinking.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:03:03 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When a country invades another country without provocation, it is quite clear which country has the agenda.


You mean like when Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:06:33 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I think we're in similar positions, Real0ne. Our government doesn't really play the patrotism card, but it does play the Western values card and Islamophobia. One major difference is that Britain has centuries of form for this kind of thing - we're like the people who just can't learn from history.

I reckon politics will be interesting in the next 30 years as people begin to understand what is going on.


Let me reword this according to my take onit:

To those who profess "phantoms of lost liberty", (the imaginary liberty we think we have) my message is this; your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. 

So bitching about the patriot act will fuck up the gw war machine and therefore those of us who support the founders of our country by bringing into focus gw's illegal methods with:

Charges of kangaroo courts and shredding the constitution, give new meaning to the term fog of war.

Since lives and liberties depend on clarity, not obsfuscation, (double speak as if to imply gw is giving us more clarity than the constitution which is written so that someone with an 80 iq can understand it as opposed to those with the 160+ iq that are trying to dismantle it). upon reason not hyperbole, (more double speak as if to imply gw is giving us reason when in reality passing the patriot act and military commissions acts which are purely knee jerk reactions (hyperbole), and most of congress never even read it!) let me take this opportunity to be clear,

Now this is the best part that literally raises my bp ever fuckin time i read it!

my message to america (yep america, thats me alright) this morning then is this:

if YOU (me again), fit "THIS definition" of a terrorist FEAR THE UNITED STATES, YOU WILL LOSE YOUR LIBERTY.

Yep me again! They arent building those damn prison camps for nothing and it is official!

What is this definition?  Fucking dissent  This country no longer has the right much less the obligation to DISSENT to maintain the republic!!!









_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:08:51 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When a country invades another country without provocation, it is quite clear which country has the agenda.


You mean like when Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation?


Yes. Iraq made it quite clear they believed they had a legitimate claim over Kuwait which should have been one of its provinces and many international lawyers say there is some legitimacy to its claim. Kuwait was a separate entity because the British wanted a weak country to manipulate for oil. However, we know that the liberation was nothing to do with freedom because Kuwait was a dictatorship that paid off desent and treated guest workers apallingly and still does. If it wasn't for its oil, the USA wouldn't have saved this dictatorship from a dictatorship.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:11:56 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I never quite understand these statements.
  • Didn't we dissent, in the last election?
  • Aren't you dissenting right now?
  • Exactly what (specifics please) are you being denied, that you should have, and are being denied?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:12:05 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
When a country invades another country without provocation, it is quite clear which country has the agenda.


You mean like when Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation?


Yes. Iraq made it quite clear they believed they had a legitimate claim over Kuwait which should have been one of its provinces and many international lawyers say there is some legitimacy to its claim. Kuwait was a separate entity because the British wanted a weak country to manipulate for oil. However, we know that the liberation was nothing to do with freedom because Kuwait was a dictatorship that paid off desent and treated guest workers apallingly and still does. If it wasn't for its oil, the USA wouldn't have saved this dictatorship from a dictatorship.


thats the way i understand it too


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:17:01 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Removal of politicians from the decision making process.



I have no problem with the concept of government. A decent government would be Harold Wilson's Labour government who refused to send troops to Vietnam under far more pressure than Blair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

4) Evaluation of the process after completion and any breaking of regulations and/or laws dealt with and accountability maintained.



Bang on. At the moment, the US government, and to a lesser extent the British government, think they're above international law. Someone has to hold these people to account. I can't think of a better organisation than the United Nations. Kofi Annan called this invasion illegal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The current administration, ALL of the politcians, and every American citizen has to take responsibility for it all. I may not have voted for any of those that are currently in, but as an American it is my President, Senate and Congress. If I start the accountability with myself, then I can work outward from there.



I couldn't agree more. Same here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I wish I truly had the knowledge of the ENTIRE situation over there so that I could make a more informed comment, but the fact remains that almost everyone has an agenda and I cannot tell who does or does not have one.



My only caution would be to not get lost in the details. The governments of the US and Britain are surrounded by spin doctors and marketing advisors - they can spin a fair old yarn and turn the situation into a battle of details so people lose the wider picture.

The overriding issues are:

1) Do corporations and the current government abuse the US system?
2) If so, what does this mean in relation to Iraq?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:18:15 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Yes. Iraq made it quite clear they believed they had a legitimate claim over Kuwait which should have been one of its provinces and many international lawyers say there is some legitimacy to its claim. Kuwait was a separate entity because the British wanted a weak country to manipulate for oil. However, we know that the liberation was nothing to do with freedom because Kuwait was a dictatorship that paid off desent and treated guest workers apallingly and still does. If it wasn't for its oil, the USA wouldn't have saved this dictatorship from a dictatorship.


A slippery slope in my view. Italy could claim Kuwait, saying it was once part of a Roman province. They could equally claim Iraq. Turkey could claim the whole mess, as it once was a Byzantine and/or Ottoman province.
 
There are very few places in the world, that someone can't say they have a claim to ... and you can absolutely find a lawyer that will support anything.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:27:27 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I never quite understand these statements.
  • Didn't we dissent, in the last election?
  • Aren't you dissenting right now?
  • Exactly what (specifics please) are you being denied, that you should have, and are being denied?



Ok rather than run down a huge list of where the gov is fucking us by that i mean imposing on us using corporate or the "color" of law rather than con law here is the pivotal issue at stake and this is big enough that every american should get on board this one, thank you for asking.  (read the briefs)  People are being denied by our corrupt justice system the right to petition and redress.   They are being denied brining into court con law for their defense!!! (easy one to look up is the unlawfull tim mcveigh trial)

i believe this decision and how it is applied in our society today is going to pave the future as to the government.  In other words we want our fucking constitution back. Preferrably peacefully.

In July 2004 almost 2000 Americans filed a landmark lawsuit against the U.S. Government seeking to have the federal Judiciary declare -- for the first time in history -- the constitutional meaning of the First Amendment Petition clause including the Right of the People to enforce the Right of Petition if Redress is denied.

We The People believes the Right to Petition
is, in fact, the "capstone" Right of the Bill of Rights and that its effect is the direct exercise of Popular Sovereignty -- the First Great Right of the Founding documents that declares government is the servant of Men.     
http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/InfoCenter.htm   

Access ALL Lawsuit Updates


in summary i, (as well as everyone else), am being denied my constitutional sovereignity due to contracts that i have no knowledge or consent under the color of law as a result of the imposter government.

Congress does not have the LAWFULL "priviledge" to write law outside the boundaries of the "columbia" eccept as specifically designated in the constitution.   Easy one do you pay "federal income tax"?  is it enforced by "federal" law?  as an example. 

Ever browse the federal laws?


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2007 4:33:18 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:38:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I think it would be easier, if "the right thing to do" were more clear. What we mostly get, is accusations about going in the first place. All true points, but well past pointless now. We are there.
 


The right thing to do is stated on these boards repeatedly.

It's not pointless. The big picture is this: evidence was fabricated, lies were told, people are dying - these people have to be held to account or it will go on happening. That is why it is not pointless to reiterate the corruption of the two governments. It is of paramount importance that people remember what this whole invasion was built on. Several knowledgable, respected figures have called it illegal - Kofi Annan being one. What matters more than anything is that a) The British government withdraw and leave the people to self-determination b) The British government is held to account so that future governments think twice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 
Then you see events such as the captured British soldiers ... captured in international waters, not long after Britain announces that it will soon be withdrawing troops from Iraq. Iran is now apparently contemplating a trial for these people ... all the while, people aren't completely sure that the actual legitimate Iranian government is behind this whole thing.
 


Let's not lose sight of the wider picture. The British Navy were in Iraqi waters, the same country that the army are encamped in defiance of international opinion. There is no moral highground to be taken here. They have invaded a country with evidence amounting to a forged document. They should not be anywhere near the place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 
Who is our model for how to handle these sorts of events? The Romans would invade, and probably crucify 15,000 Iranians ... and insisted that if more troops were taken, it would be times 10K next time. The Byzantines would have sent money to the political rivals of the current Iranian government, sent in assassins with poison for good measure, and paid Iran's rivals to blown up the Iranian oil fields.
 
Somehow, those don't seem like reasonable options.


Caitlyn, Western interests do not belong in Iraq, they didn't have the Iraqi people at heart and they never will. They are there to create a marketplace open to US and British interests. There is no benevolence and never will be.

The sane option is to withdraw now and hold the governments to account. They should be tried for war crimes and if found guilty thrown in jail.

There is a lesson from history here. In 1986, the US government walked out of the International Court of Justice after being fined something like $12 billion on the grounds of violation of Nicaraguian sovereignty - 16 years later they're at it again. If these people aren't held to account they'll do exactly the same thing in 20 years time. That is the big picture and that's why it is important to understand and remember the flawed foundations for this invasion.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:40:44 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I disagree that the UN is the place for this accountability. This is a US issue, and the US citizens should take the responsibility and push for what is right. If this responsibility is allowed to go somewhere else, then the US citizens are not shouldering our responsibility. I look far beyond the right and wrong of any of the current actions. I look to the whole government and see problems throughout it. I am trying to think of one single advancement of man that the US government is responsible for, here in the US, other than an interstate system. Everything else has been done by the Free Market and hard working citizens. We continue though to hand them our money without accountability, and continue to ask for even more government programs to fix things, which the government rarely fixes anything.

Less government and more individual responsibility is what is needed. In the end it will fix many of the problems that happen internationally and domestically. Does anyone here know the stages that democracy or a republic go through in the life of that government? Try looking into and determine where your country is, and then take the actions you think appropriate to make it better. Changing the world is possible, it starts with one person at a time, the person that is reading right now. Remove the party line and stand up and say "I am a citizen and it is my responsibility to set aside petty squabbles and address the larger picture of it's preservation."

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:42:46 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am not sure how it is there but a revolution here would be easy. I am not talking about violence, I am talking about voting out every incumbant in the House and Senate, regardless of party, and sending a clear message that we no longer will tolerate business as usual politics.



Sounds good in theory, you just have to convince the people that pop idol ain't that important, any ideas?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:44:40 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I would imagine many will completely discount this.
 
I remember posting information about several long conversations I had with an American Armored Battalion commander? What he had to say (and I tried to present it without inserting any of my own views, which didn't always agree with his) was completely discounted ... he was too high up on the chain of command ... he was too low on the chain of command ... he is being too critical ... he isn't allowed to be critical.
 
It seems to me, that vast majority of people only listen to our troops, when they say something we agree with.


Caitlyn, what better source of info than our Troops?
That's who I'd listen to.
As for politicians, I want them to shut the fuck up and listen to The People.
For whatever reason senators and congressmen think that they're "leaders."
They're not.
They're "messengers" who we elect to do our bidding!
Congress and the senate are not "leadership" positions.
Funny, the other day I was watching senator Aba Dabba from Illinois and he mentioned his "leadership experience."
What "leadership experience?"
Didn't he go to law school or something?
I'd be much more impressed if he had a degree in electrical engineering. At least that way you'd know he was good with math and maybe good with a budget.
He's all done now anyway, "The Reverand " Jesse Jackson gave him his blessing the other day. That's the "kiss of death."
Bye Bye Senator Aba Dabba!
What I don't understand is if we "know" that Bin Laden and al qeada are in Pakistan, why aren't we blowing the living shit out of that area? Who gives a fig about Iraq if we know those bastards are in Pakistan?
If there were ever a time to use nuclear weapons this would be it!
Flatten those mountains and bury them all!

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:46:42 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I disagree that the UN is the place for this accountability. This is a US issue,



No it's not. It becomes an international issue the moment your government and army steps foot out of US borders.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:52:00 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Bang on. At the moment, the US government, and to a lesser extent the British government, think they're above international law. Someone has to hold these people to account. I can't think of a better organisation than the United Nations. Kofi Annan called this invasion illegal.


If you are saying have the UN take care of it that is the last thing we should want!!  i mean that would be like jumping from the frying pan to the fire.

The whole problem with this country is that the federal government is taking over the whole country.

It was purposefully split up and meant that each state have their own militias and are sovereign with an agreement to unite under one federal system of commerce for our our own well being.

Never ever consolidate power if you want truth in government. If we wanted the un to be the judge of things fine.

In fact i took this one step beyond when i respoded to one of ky's posts where i said that we should have sovereign counties and sovereign cities within the counties to make it totally miserable for this crap to happen in the future.   Splitting government up and distribution of power makes it difficult to take it over.

Then like Toumas said last night that they have the "Contraloría" which is a public government watch dog which is set up to sue the shit out of the government for anything that violates the constitution to get it changed back.

That is what we need here.

The proble is that we have organizations doing that now but the government has infinite money and they run the same bills over and over and over again which is bs imo.   They push so much crap through and so fast that no one can keep up either in manpower or expenses and we continually fall behind. 

The cold war against the american people.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:53:14 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Kofi Annan - United Nations. The invasion is illegal and not recognised by those signed up to international convention.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1305709,00.html

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:54:13 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

A slippery slope in my view. Italy could claim Kuwait, saying it was once part of a Roman province. They could equally claim Iraq. Turkey could claim the whole mess, as it once was a Byzantine and/or Ottoman province.
 
There are very few places in the world, that someone can't say they have a claim to ... and you can absolutely find a lawyer that will support anything.


Oil makes the west worry a lot about slippery slopes, the lack of oil has the west not giving a toss about slippery slopes.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:57:52 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I disagree that the UN is the place for this accountability. This is a US issue,



No it's not. It becomes an international issue the moment your government and army steps foot out of US borders.


yes but solving it internally will solve it internationally by default, they ignored the un anyway. they ignored the constitution, bush said its nothing more than a piece of paper


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 40
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