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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 4:59:31 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


If you are saying have the UN take care of it that is the last thing we should want!!  i mean that would be like jumping from the frying pan to the fire.

The cold war against the american people.



Real0ne, like it or not, the world does not trust the US nation to sort it out. More faith is placed in the UN than the US people. They are far more likely to hold the government to account - can you really blame the world for having no faith in a people who elected Bush twice? That is the reality.

We're not far behind. Britain's credibility is disappearing down the swanny fast. The world does not trust either country.

I'll put my faith in the UN and ask them to put both the British and US governments on trial for war crimes. It ain't going to happen unless they do it.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:02:33 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


If you are saying have the UN take care of it that is the last thing we should want!!  i mean that would be like jumping from the frying pan to the fire.

The cold war against the american people.



Real0ne, like it or not, the world does not trust the US nation to sort it out. More faith is placed in the UN than the US people. They are far more likely to hold the government to account - can you really blame the world for having no faith in a people who elected Bush twice? That is the reality.

We're not far behind. Britain's credibility is disappearing down the swanny fast. The world does not trust either country.

I'll put my faith in the UN and ask them to put both the British and US governments on trial for war crimes. It ain't going to happen unless they do it.


you have no idea how i wish i could argue that point but sadly i cannot.

Oh and to add that is why i put in my post to caitlyn on the previous page about that one HUGEMONGOUS law suit that will be pivotal because getting that one thing sorted out then we can start kicking some government balls in and get our rightful government seated again.  That being our republic of course.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2007 5:10:39 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:02:43 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

they ignored the un anyway. they ignored the constitution, bush said its nothing more than a piece of paper



I take this point. The US government isn't about to listen to anyone. Any ideas how the US people are going to move away from corporate dominated politics?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:09:09 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

they ignored the un anyway. they ignored the constitution, bush said its nothing more than a piece of paper



I take this point. The US government isn't about to listen to anyone. Any ideas how the US people are going to move away from corporate dominated politics?


by gaining the right to petition and redress which is being denied, without the inevitable evolution or the alternative where i suppose violence will occur.

we have a disticnt advantage in that we have lots of privately owned guns for the sole purpose of reseating our government shoud it ever be taken over by tyrants.

No right to petition and redress is tyrannical.

what that translates to is that we have no power tochange the government as we are granted only remedy for that which the government decides we can have which means the we are servants tothe government and reversed to the way the constitution was written where in fact the government is our servants.

It used to be that a jury could overturn laws, however that cannot happen when operating under the color of law.  they have given the corporation rights and a corporation does not have iughts just from that you can see the convoluted crap they can push on us.  coporations are straw men.  people are citizens and real and have rights.  it sounds like a rediculous thing to have to argue about but that is how fundamental they get down to disecting this garbage...  and its how they manage to get and stay in our panties


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2007 5:19:52 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:18:51 PM   
NorthernGent


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What are the chances of widespread violence against the government? Seems to me like education is the solution.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:25:43 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are the chances of widespread violence against the government? Seems to me like education is the solution.


i agree and have said it many times, but you have been on here and heard many arguements pro and con.   its hard to say what the extent is.  Clinton tried to break up the militia groups in the western us by using the murrah building bombing as a pretext to it, but there are groups that look like the islam terror films here in the us comprised of us citizens who believe in liberty and the constitution and they claim they are ready to go should the time arise they are needed.

So its not like they do not exist here.  We were set up to retain our weapons for this very reason of course none of ever dreamed it would or could happen, obviouly except the founders.

The nra rifle association is one of the best funded organizations in this counrty if that makes a statement.  they fight for retention of our weapons.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:38:38 PM   
luckydog1


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Ng says,"Let's not lose sight of the wider picture. The British Navy were in Iraqi waters, the same country that the army are encamped in defiance of international opinion. There is no moral highground to be taken here. "

But the reailty is that the UN did in fact approve the occupation, and approves the British being there helping the Iraqis.  Then UN security council passed 14-0 resolution 1483 in 2003 and followed up with 1546 in 2004.  These have also been extended.   The UN says the gov of Iraqi is 100% legitimate, and has every right to invite the British and US to be there.  The CPA and its right to spend Iraqi oil money was also 100% legitimised in 1483.  Facts are such anoying things some times.  Kofi is free to say anything he likes( he doesn't have to live in any of the hell holes he confered legitimacy on), yet the actuall actions of the UN are very different than NG would have us believe.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:42:47 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


The nra rifle association is one of the best funded organizations in this counrty if that makes a statement. they fight for retention of our weapons.


Let's say, I have a grand burning a hole in my pocket and would like to purchase a H & K MP5K.

I cannot do that.

Thanks for NOTHING, NRA.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:48:04 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


The nra rifle association is one of the best funded organizations in this counrty if that makes a statement. they fight for retention of our weapons.


Let's say, I have a grand burning a hole in my pocket and would like to purchase a H & K MP5K.

I cannot do that.

Thanks for NOTHING, NRA.




well not nothing exactly but i agree we should be able to get thompsons too

my fav is the 65x284  or the 338

How about bmg runnin 750gr


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2007 5:52:00 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:49:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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The initial invasion was not approved by the UN security council. That is why Kofi Annan is saying it was illegal. The action was taken unilaterally.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:52:44 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

People refuse to accept that the US government and their corporate allies are cold-blooded killers because it shatters the delusions of the US being the freedom country. Suddenly, the illusion of superiority (fed by the government) would be blown away in one fell swoop - along with the sense of personal stability and grounding afforded by these notions. Not exactly a unique theory, but you'll see I'm getting at personal insecurity acting as a barrier. Suddenly, you'd be on a par with the Communists, and indoctrination tells you that you're a cut above them.



I would have to disagree with this in a sense.  It is not people who refuse to accept that, it is (by and large) American citizens.  Not sure people worldwide think of the United States as the "Freedom country."  People I know and have talked to in Canada and Europe tend to be dumbfounded at the ignorance of the American people about the actions of our government.

One aspect of the American self image is the idea that the United States trots in with our military and our wealth and saves the day.  We became involved in World War 1, and according to us, we solved the problem.  We became involved in World War 2, according to us, we won the war.  We became involved in Korea, and according to us, we prevented World War 3 by partitioning the country.  We stood up to the Red Menace and Reagan handily defeated them.  It has been hundreds of years since the United States has faced a foreign enemy on our soil, and the verbal and written lessons from our founding seem to have gotten lost in the jingoistic flag waving during these conflicts.

Early on in the Vietnam War, the United States people were told repeatedly by our government that the Vietnamese wanted us there, it was a few malcontents who were arguing, etc.  Reading the writings of the Vietnamese, a dramatically different picture emerges.  Vietnam was a loss of the United State's innocence and sense of righteousness.  Since then, it has been somewhat of a struggle to rebuild our own collective self-esteem as well as try to formulate relationships with the rest of the world.

With limited success.  That saying "It takes months to build a relationship, and seconds to destroy one" comes to mind.  Bush has done as much as one man can to destroy our relationships with anybody, but the problem does predate his election.

I suppose I will be shouted down for this, but I will say it anyway.  None of the people involved in the decision to take us to war in Iraq were involved in Vietnam.  More importantly, all of them drummed up a way to avoid being involved in Vietnam.

People sometimes ask me how we could have "won" the Vietnam War.  My response is always the same.  Exterminating the Vietnamese would have won the war.  I then point out I am really happy the United States did not "win" the Vietnam war.  I prefer to be an airy-fairy, granola-eating, tree-hugging peacenik, and to not have to spend my life washing the blood of other people off my hands.

Unfortunately, Monkeyboy has now made me an accessory to murder.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 5:55:23 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The initial invasion was not approved by the UN security council. That is why Kofi Annan is saying it was illegal. The action was taken unilaterally.


the initial invasion is what i understood we were talking about too...  can you site that lucky or are you talk about the after the invasion occupation?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 6:12:51 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The sane option is to withdraw now and hold the governments to account. They should be tried for war crimes and if found guilty thrown in jail.


I don't see just withdrawing, as a sane option. I see that as an easy option.
 
Keep in mind that I agree completely that two governments, the United States and Great Britain, should be held accountable for lying to the world about the reason for war in Iraq. You get no argument from me there.
 
But ... that is an issue mutually exclusive from what to do now. If you use the blame for going in, as an excuse to just leave, that is a mistake on the same order as going in the first place. My view of course.
 
Do you really think if we leave now ... just take our troops and leave ... that we will then be allowing the Iraqi people self-determination? I certainly don't. I think we will be handing them over to Iran ... the same Iran that thinks they can take British soldiers in Iraqi waters, without provocation.
 
I would suggest to you, that two wrongs do not make a right. We were wrong to go in, but handing those we abused over to the Iranians, doesn't ameliorate anything. It is mearly convenient.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 6:13:56 PM   
farglebargle


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The UN is going to have to pick up the pieces anyway... Now or Later.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 6:26:39 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The UN is going to have to pick up the pieces anyway... Now or Later.


Nice theory, but the locals probably consider the UN a bunch of heretic apostates as well.

What will happen is we will leave.  Social order will further disintegrate.   It will either split into perpetually warring warlords, or Saddam the Shiite Version, will take control.

Humpty Dumpty will not allow itself to be put back together by the West.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 6:52:11 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Keep discussing it and mentioning it to everyone we can. The change starts with one person. Each person has to make up their own mind, do what they think is best and then live with whatever consequences those are.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am not sure how it is there but a revolution here would be easy. I am not talking about violence, I am talking about voting out every incumbant in the House and Senate, regardless of party, and sending a clear message that we no longer will tolerate business as usual politics.



Sounds good in theory, you just have to convince the people that pop idol ain't that important, any ideas?


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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 6:56:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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ALL governing bodies, including the UN, are loaded with politics that often have nothing to do with the situation at hand. The UN cannot do anything really anyway. Only the US citizens can.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I disagree that the UN is the place for this accountability. This is a US issue,



No it's not. It becomes an international issue the moment your government and army steps foot out of US borders.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 7:12:00 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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There are several ways this can happen, but it will not happen overnight. It is already being mentioned on some radio talk shows, in barbershops, various places and has been gaining momentum for a few years. Actually it partially happened just recently when the republicans lost control of the House. The Dem's want to say it was over the War but it is not. Moderate Republicans all over were sending a message that they had entrusted the House of Representatives to them over a decade ago and not one of them had fulfilled their "contract with America". Instead they got in there, felt the power and have done everything they can to keep it. Now there has been a turnover and I don't think the Dem's are going to do much better because it will still be business as usual. So this will take a couple of more times and some steadfastness from US citizens. Keep replacing the politicians until they get they idea that they are there for the people.

Next the Senators need to go back to being appointed by the States and not elected by popular vote. This brings balance of power and the states are actually represented in the government. This is what was intended by the founding fathers and was changed by an amendment. Abolih the damn amendment and make it so they will not be corporate suck ups for money, so they can fuel campaigns.

Next you put the Senate in charge of campaign reform. None of them now have a vested interest, and campaign reform would get a serious looking into and change. Once the flow of money from special interest and corporations stops, then and only then will the people start to gain some control.

The people need to stop asking the government for more programs. More programs means more control over our daily lives. Change in the tax structure and tax laws so that more money is brought to the local level where people are held more accountable and have a better idea how things should be. Now states would compete with each other for attracting the better businesses and people to their area.

There is a long list of things but the first thing is we as US Citizens have to accept responsibility for what is happening, regardless of party lines, and regardless of being apathetic and not voting. Until we do that, we are just spectators to the Federal Government show.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

they ignored the un anyway. they ignored the constitution, bush said its nothing more than a piece of paper



I take this point. The US government isn't about to listen to anyone. Any ideas how the US people are going to move away from corporate dominated politics?


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 7:30:28 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

Do you really think if we leave now ... just take our troops and leave ... that we will then be allowing the Iraqi people self-determination? I certainly don't. I think we will be handing them over to Iran ...


so now for ever more, we need to divide Persia (are you the same ditzy blonde with the civil war thingie?) Actually, the match is made in heaven, and Allah has granted them brotherhood by this provident thing that Reagan was tryng to put together by means of supporting Rumsfield and Hussein in the war in the 80s.
What did they have before we square danced in there if not self-determination, which wasn't how we see it?


But now it is not a good idea?  Waltz me thru that.


quote:


the same Iran that thinks they can take British soldiers in Iraqi waters, without provocation.


You of such feminine wiles, who would not have a row with anyone, makes these provocative statements with venom dripping from you?

Where is the water, and where is the original argument based that it was Irani water?  Long before today, toots.  So, for one that is always cautioning much remains to be seen your emotions are a little to nationalistic and showing.  I am content to believe that the Iraquis and Iranians have been disputing this, and that the British are interlopers in this border dispute to begin with, because the world court has not made a decision.  But we cannot look for relief there, since we told them to fuck off.  Now, caitlyn, since you know these facts, mail me, and give me the particulars, and be right quick about it, don't pour over a map of the area, know the bay, and come to me with some neo-con asswipe.

I had thought more of you than this cheap shit.  You disappoint me.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/31/2007 7:33:15 PM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 3/31/2007 7:58:26 PM   
caitlyn


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Well, calling another person's opinion, "cheap shit" is easy ... is it not?
 
Not wishing to hand Iraq over to the Iranians, has nothing to do with nationalism. Those are your words, not mine - your impressions of what I said ... not what was actually said. Truth be told, I wouldn't want to hand Iraq over to anyone, other than Iraqis. That includes the United States or United Nations. How would you imagine other Middle Eastern nations would feel about Iran taking over in Iraq?
 
I don't know any way to say this, other than to just say is. We made this mess, and it is our duty to clean it up.
 
Now, if feeling that we have an obligation to fix what we break, gives some an excuse to call me a war monger, or suggest that I'm happy about guys returning in body bags, or your "cheap shit" cheap shot ... well then, just fire away.
 
If I had a dollar for every cheap shot that has been aimed at me in my almost twenty-one years, I could pay for the war myself.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 60
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