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RE: Iraq invasion of Kuwait - 4/1/2007 11:57:13 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Considering that when Iraq mustered all of their troops and tanks on Kuwaits border that we told the Kuwaitis to stand down because we "knew" the Iraqis wouldn't invade...sort of paints a rather sordid picture of the whole affair.  At best gross negligence and at worse...

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/1/2007 6:04:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Sinergy,

quote:

I believe that is going to happen, caitlyn.

I believed going in that it would happen.


I agree although I have come to wonder if turning Iraq to shit wasn't part of the plan all along.  The kurds could lay claim, and I have seen neocon fantasy maps showing this, to the Iranian coast where the turkmen and marsh arabs are the majority.  Considering Cheney's long involvement in Iran, he was Rayguns bagman for the money for hostages deal they used to fuck Carter, as well as Halliburton's and other efforts in Iran, one wonders if that wasn't the prize after all.

I mean consider the occupation of Iraq, even with odds one would do a few things right and yet they haven't even managed that.  It takes a lot of careful thought to ALWAYS fuck up.  Bush may be an imbecile but Cheney is anything but.  It just makes ya wonder though what the end game really is.  They did destroy the federal government under debt, the whole "down the baby in the bathtub" that was proposed in the 1990s.  They did get their PNAC "pearl harbor type event" and they did invade Iraq.  They have a plan I think, I just don't think it is one that has America or its citizens as anything but suckers to be raped and pillaged.


First off, Saudi Arabia has reached the point in their oil explorations where it is becoming increasingly expensive to pull out of their wells.  Saudi Arabia is forced by agreement to sell their oil for US dollars.

Iraq has been subject to UN sanctions since the early 1990s, and sit on a vast pool of high quality crude oil.  Saddam was considering selling it for Euros prior to the US invading.

Iran has been subject to UN sanctions of one form or another since the 1970s, and sits on another vast pool of high quality crude oil.  Iran hates the United States, and if they sell their oil it will be in Euros or Dinars or whatever.

Venezuala has already stated they will sell their oil for Euros, that being an actual stable currency since Monkeyboy took the reins.

From the standpoint of Saudi Arabia, a war to decimate both Iran and Iraq's oil production translates directly into profits.  From a US standpoint, we need to bankrupt their countries and install a wimpy government willing to sign an agreement to only sell their oil for US dollars.  This allows our economy to skate, and forces China to buy US dollars to purchase oil.

From the standpoint of Halliburton, et al, they could get the Republican Congress and Monkeyboy/Shotgun to provide cost-plus, no bid contracts to rebuild.  From an economic standpoint, I imagine Saudi Arabia does not really want Halliburton to rebuild Iraq, as this means a lowering of their oil profits.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/1/2007 9:33:40 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sounds rather plausible!

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/1/2007 11:51:20 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, no-one really cares what the "U.N." thinks anymore, at least here in the U.S.
Oh sure, you'll get those few "heavy lifters" in the State Dept or people who go to that snake-pit of global socialism. That's one of the reasons that I like Cong. Ron Paul who's running for President, he wants the U.S. out of the "U.N."
Oh, and Kofi Anan's gone now. I hope he's happily back in his home country of Ghana shooting elephants, snake hunting or whatever they do there.



It's all blather Popeye - if the US had listened to the UN and the rest of the world, you wouldn't be in this mess.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 8:38:12 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It's all blather Popeye - if the US had listened to the UN and the rest of the world, you wouldn't be in this mess.


And if folks would have listened to the UN concerning the Balkans, there would still be ethnic cleansing of Muslims there.
 
You are being the master armchair quarterback. Why don't you figure out how people are supposed to know when the UN is right, and when they are just full of shit, and hyper politically motivated ... as it most often the case.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 10:08:36 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

You can spend all day finger pointing and talking about what should have happened, or exert that energy in dealing with what is, and offering solutions for that. Yes there are people that need to be held accountable, but that should be the last step in solving the situation: retrospection, assessment and accountability.

If there is a mission goal left then it needs to be stated clearly.
Then the politicians need to let the military handle it.
News media needs to stop causing spin, one way or the other, like a news black out.
Have UN observers that watch what is occuring, make reports and disclose afterwards (or in the event of a major failure, internal review and suggestions on how to handle).
Once it is all done then assess from beginning to end, identify mistakes, learn from them and hold accountable any that need to be.


Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 12:13:02 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

there are people that need to be held accountable, but that should be the last step in solving the situation: retrospection, assessment and accountability.


So, you want to stick with the leadership team that is so blind even their hindsight is poor? 

quote:

  News media needs to stop causing spin, one way or the other, like a news black out.


It isn't the media that is causing spin, it is this administration, all it does is spin.  WMD (Judith Miller anyone?), firing of Zinni and counter testimony, claims of Iraq having no history of ethnic violence, Iraq paying for its own reconstruction, "choas is natural, its just exuberance", Tillman died in a brave firefight, Jessica, the chick they "rescued", "there is no insurgency", "there is no civil war", and I could go on.  If the press had actually done its fucking job and been CRITICAL, we might have been saved from this fiasco and if we still did it, we might have gone in with a competent plan, we might have adjusted our plan before it was too late, and again I could go on.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 2:39:23 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

And if folks would have listened to the UN concerning the Balkans, there would still be ethnic cleansing of Muslims there.
 
You are being the master armchair quarterback. Why don't you figure out how people are supposed to know when the UN is right, and when they are just full of shit, and hyper politically motivated ... as it most often the case.


Let's not get carried away caitlyn, if the bombing didn't stop the Serbs, Clinton had no intention of sending ground troops into the situation.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 4:58:02 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Never said "stick" with them, but you deal with the cards you are handed.

Everyone causes spin because news no longer just reports what is occuring, the create polls and offer editorials during what is supposed to be just news. I know you are smarter than what I seem to perceive at the moment because I have seen many posts by you that were very lucid and thought provoking. Why do you believe the news does not cause their own spin, in the interest of whoever is controling them? Didn't Fox network do something during an election that caused a certain outcome? Does not some newspapers publish stories without completely verifying sources?


Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

there are people that need to be held accountable, but that should be the last step in solving the situation: retrospection, assessment and accountability.


So, you want to stick with the leadership team that is so blind even their hindsight is poor? 

quote:

  News media needs to stop causing spin, one way or the other, like a news black out.


It isn't the media that is causing spin, it is this administration, all it does is spin.  WMD (Judith Miller anyone?), firing of Zinni and counter testimony, claims of Iraq having no history of ethnic violence, Iraq paying for its own reconstruction, "choas is natural, its just exuberance", Tillman died in a brave firefight, Jessica, the chick they "rescued", "there is no insurgency", "there is no civil war", and I could go on.  If the press had actually done its fucking job and been CRITICAL, we might have been saved from this fiasco and if we still did it, we might have gone in with a competent plan, we might have adjusted our plan before it was too late, and again I could go on.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 5:43:47 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's all blather Popeye - if the US had listened to the UN and the rest of the world, you wouldn't be in this mess.


It's so odd to hear someone try to make the preposterous claim that the UN ever had any credibility over Iraq, especially after Kofi's boy got so rich in the massive oil-for-food scam. Are you just hoping that everyone has forgotten about that, or what.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 5:48:31 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		It is so tiring to hear the same old lies and misinformation over and over and over again.  At least when you get it straight from Fox they have hot blondes giving it to you.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 6:24:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Sinergy,

quote:

I believe that is going to happen, caitlyn.

I believed going in that it would happen.


I agree although I have come to wonder if turning Iraq to shit wasn't part of the plan all along.  The kurds could lay claim, and I have seen neocon fantasy maps showing this, to the Iranian coast where the turkmen and marsh arabs are the majority.  Considering Cheney's long involvement in Iran, he was Rayguns bagman for the money for hostages deal they used to fuck Carter, as well as Halliburton's and other efforts in Iran, one wonders if that wasn't the prize after all.

I mean consider the occupation of Iraq, even with odds one would do a few things right and yet they haven't even managed that.  It takes a lot of careful thought to ALWAYS fuck up.  Bush may be an imbecile but Cheney is anything but.  It just makes ya wonder though what the end game really is.  They did destroy the federal government under debt, the whole "down the baby in the bathtub" that was proposed in the 1990s.  They did get their PNAC "pearl harbor type event" and they did invade Iraq.  They have a plan I think, I just don't think it is one that has America or its citizens as anything but suckers to be raped and pillaged.


I posted on one of these threads that the goal of Iraq seems to be the same goal that Goldfinger had in that James Bond movie.  Irradiate Fort Knox and vastly elevate the value of Goldfinger's bullion.

The US goes in and destroys the oil producing regions of Iraq and Iran.  Leave the place a hollow shell.  And Bush and Cheney's buddies in Saudi Arabia become mind bubblingly rich because they still have some oil.  Get Iran to move into Iraq, the US goes back in and destroys the place even more, so Saudi Arabia moves in to those Arab regions as the "saviors."

An independent Kurdistan would most likely result in open warfare with Turkey.  I tend to doubt any of it was done with the Kurds best interests in mind.

Im a bit surprised that Halliburton did not move to Saudi Arabia.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/2/2007 11:41:07 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's all blather Popeye - if the US had listened to the UN and the rest of the world, you wouldn't be in this mess.


It's so odd to hear someone try to make the preposterous claim that the UN ever had any credibility over Iraq, especially after Kofi's boy got so rich in the massive oil-for-food scam. Are you just hoping that everyone has forgotten about that, or what.


There are two groups who have no faith in the UN - sections of the US and third world countries who believe that the UN is a US trojan horse. Due to poverty, the third world struggles with education standards - what's your reason?

The UN were backed by Russia, France, China and Britain during the scandal. It turns out that many companies, including Texan oil companies, were handing out bribes for contracts in Iraq.

You could really do with developing some modesty. Take a look at the US government and their actions, remove the indoctrination blinkers and open your eyes. Blaming everyone else just makes you look like a teenager whose only trail of thought is to lash out at everyone else rather than accept the cold facts staring you in the face - the US government compares with third world nations and latin American countries when it comes to corruption, control and anti-democratic values.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/2/2007 11:42:15 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/3/2007 7:01:51 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		NG,

You are not going to convince a bush lover that there is any truth outside what they get from fox news.  They don't get that the oil-for-food scandal was a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what US oil companies got from the secret illegal oil transfers approved by both Bush and Clinton to Jordan and Turkey.  Hell most of them are too ignorant to even know about them or the fact that the involvement of US oil firms in ALL the scandals has been kept below the radar, at least in the US.

Come on, these are the same morons that get irate over lies about sex but yawn over lies about war.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/3/2007 5:36:10 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Come on, these are the same morons that get irate over lies about sex but yawn over lies about war.



War has been described as one of the most potent aphrodesiacs in existence.

Maybe they are irate about sex because they arent able to get any of their own.

Maybe they go to war to "get it up" again.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/4/2007 5:14:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The MP5 is a overated overcomplicated POS.  It is very VERY ammo sensative and only sells well because H&K pays the highest bribes in the industry.  The L34 is quiter, more accurate, and far far more reliable.

As for the current 6.8 it is a masterbatory fantasy for reloaders but as a combat round it has a very very fatal flaw which I am sure none of you can even grasp.  Saddly, most don't know a primary cause of the AK's reliablility.  Besides, the .280 British and the 7mm FN short have always been about optimal although the .286 would have been really cool.


well there is no all purpose best weapon for combat.  like anything else you need the right tols for the right job.  The ak is reliable because it is a klatter cough LOL

there are many reasons to pick one arm over the other and every weapon has a flaw in combat depeding what you think you should be able to use it for.

As far as i am concerned you really only need maybe 4 calibers to do anything you could dream of.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/4/2007 5:17:01 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

NG,

You are not going to convince a bush lover that there is any truth outside what they get from fox news.  They don't get that the oil-for-food scandal was a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what US oil companies got from the secret illegal oil transfers approved by both Bush and Clinton to Jordan and Turkey.  Hell most of them are too ignorant to even know about them or the fact that the involvement of US oil firms in ALL the scandals has been kept below the radar, at least in the US.

Come on, these are the same morons that get irate over lies about sex but yawn over lies about war.


yep and i will take that to its next step and continue with every war we have been in was a false flag op.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/4/2007 5:17:18 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		You are not going to convince a bush lover that there is any truth outside what they get from fox news.  They don't get that the oil-for-food scandal was a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what US oil companies got from the secret illegal oil transfers approved by both Bush and Clinton to Jordan and Turkey.  Hell most of them are too ignorant to even know about them or the fact that the involvement of US oil firms in ALL the scandals has been kept below the radar, at least in the US


I would sure like to be educated on these secret deals, have a source handy?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/4/2007 5:40:56 PM   
Sternhand4


Posts: 422
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

You are not going to convince a bush lover that there is any truth outside what they get from fox news.  They don't get that the oil-for-food scandal was a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what US oil companies got from the secret illegal oil transfers approved by both Bush and Clinton to Jordan and Turkey.  Hell most of them are too ignorant to even know about them or the fact that the involvement of US oil firms in ALL the scandals has been kept below the radar, at least in the US


I would sure like to be educated on these secret deals, have a source handy?

He gets the info from KOS,,  

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Invasion Strategy and Results - 4/4/2007 5:45:43 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		KOS?  the blog?

(in reply to Sternhand4)
Profile   Post #: 100
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