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RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 4:03:08 PM

MstrssPassion

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there wasn't a need since the pontificate attitude rang out so loudly here... but after reading your post I had to look... seems he is breaking rules all over the place

Sharing contact info to offsite locations is not allowed.

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Post #: 41

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 4:18:25 PM

OhBeMyMind

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

there wasn't a need since the pontificate attitude rang out so loudly here... but after reading your post I had to look... seems he is breaking rules all over the place

Sharing contact info to offsite locations is not allowed.

There are some things I feel more passionately about than others..ignoring safe words, defending the very thing one complains about....if my posts came off with a pontificate (which I had to look up) attitude it was not completely by mistake, however, if anyone other than the OP was offended by my posts, well sorry about that but they were only directed towards the OP.
Okay so don't send them the thread, offer them directions to the thread.

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Post #: 42

RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 4:29:58 PM

MistressRouge

Posts: 876
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From: Birmingham West Midlands UK
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Hello fusion,

I do not judge You in your honest & frank posting, as You were not at fault in this matter.

It is obvious Your friend over-stepped the mark (excuse the pun), and abused Your loyalty by delivering 3 extra strokes after Your sub safeworded.

It must be paramount that if such activites take place again i.e. you offer your sub for shared play with another Dom, that you make your boundaries clear, from the start. Explaining what activities You find acceptable for Dom's to play with Your sub, and what you do not.

You must also be aware fully of your subs comfort, and body language, responses not only if Your sub safewords.

I whole-heartedly blame the other Dom for this, as He took it on Himself to inflict more strokes, a callous, and non-respectful act of insolence, and it is clear He did not consider Your feelings or respect, and definately not your subs either.

Warm Regards,

Mistress Roug'e.

(in reply to fusion)

Post #: 43

RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 4:35:16 PM

spanklette

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From the situation he described, I think he shares some of the blame, as well. He should have stepped in when he realized that the other dominant was not stopping. 1 extra stroke was too many and could lay soley at the other dominant's feet....3 makes him to blame, as well.

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Post #: 44

RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 5:53:53 PM

FukinTroll

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I had this really awesome post for this, and then I remembered who the OP was.

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Post #: 45

RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 6:24:36 PM

ownedkitten

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If a safeword is called (or indicated if applicable), then all activity should stop immediately.

In this case, I see two levels of "fault" if you want to call it that. First of all, the person holding the cane should have heeded the safeword and stopped. As her "owner" you should have enforced the use of the safeword, no matter if the other D-type involved was your mentor. Master has made a rule that anytime He "loans me out" to another D-type, He will be present in the room and can safeword on my behalf if He notices that it is too much for me and I have not/cannot use my safeword.

I am glad to hear that you talked with her about it and she seems to be okay, but I would be wary of allowing this other D-type to "play" with her in the future as I see what happened as a huge breaking of trust.

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Post #: 46

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:04:29 PM

TemptingNviceSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I don't give a damn if he's been around for the last 1,000 years and is known intergalactically. The simple rule about safe words, when used, is this... when the safe word is called, the activity stops immediately and you check to see what is wrong. No exceptions.

That you didn't stop and check to make sure she was okay was irresponsible of you. But given that you say you are a "journeyman" and still learning (although after 4 years you ought to know this by now), chalk it up to a learning experience that fortunately didn't cost you or her anything.

That he didn't stop and check to make sure she was okay despite being apparently experienced and a "mentor" would have me questioning his competency as a Top, and a mentor.

You sound a little too impressed with this guy because he's supposedly been around a bit, owns a club, etc. Bit of advice... there are complete morons who have been around for 30 years as well. Just because someone has a title or is well known doesn't make them qualified. Their qualifications are demonstrated in their behavior and in this example everyone in the example, including the submissive, fails to get a passing grade. The mentor for doing something someone with 30 years experience ought to have known better than. The dom for not stepping up to the plate and acting responsible for the submissive and the submissive for not objecting to having the safeword violated.

Course I'm also kind of curious how the submissive managed to say "red" with her mouth stuffed full of cock...

While I agree with about 99% of what you have said here Padraig..I do disagree upon blame to the submissive for her lack of objection,,First off, I am thinking possibly the so called quote "aftercare" in the car was a joke and that the submissive may have been still in the process of analyzing what went on, what her feelings about it were,and thus was unable to verbalize much of anything at that point..I am wondering what her feelings about it would be a day or so hence?..Tempting

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Post #: 47

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:16:35 PM

orfunboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fusion

Excuse the sorry meant means! Also: Should add my mentor(alex) has over 30 years experience as both submissive and dominant, he is know nation wide.

He has over 30 years experience and ignored a safeword, you have 4 years experience and you also ignored a safeword. I guess all that proves is, you can screw up whether you have 4 or 30 years of experience.

(in reply to fusion)

Post #: 48

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:22:23 PM

MstrssPassion

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Oh, no, no, no... not you OhBeMyMind... take a look at the original post

That is was I was referring to

So sorry that my post was vague & caused you to think I was speaking of you.

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Post #: 49

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:24:02 PM

Padriag

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I agree, the so-called "aftercare" was not what it should have been... seems most things about this situation weren't what they should have been. However, I'm not willing to go easy on the submissive in this case as others seem to be doing. It may be harsh, but there is a good reason behind that harshness. A submissive is still responsible for his or her self, particularly in public play with someone they may not know well or someone who is still learning. For their own safety, some reactions should be almost reflexive... such as having a safeword violated or their core values violated. While it would be nice to think that doms and moderators and bouncers, etc. would all be responsible enough to ensure safety of submissives at play parties and public places...the truth is, there are no guarantees. The one person the submissive should always rely upon for their safety is themselves, and that means they have to be responsible too. So no, I won't give the submissive in this case a passing grade, she should have reacted immediately when the safe word was violated. That is something that needs to be made clear to all submissives and repeated until they not only learn it, but it becomes a reflex they don't have to think about. Had this situation continued or been more serious (ie more dangerous), it would have done the submissive little good to figure that out a day or so afterwards.

So yeah, I'm being harsh here... and I hope that harshness will serve to keep somebody else out there safe when they need to be. That someone else out there will object when they should, and not two days later when its too late.

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RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:50:08 PM

nookie

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Padriag,

To an extent I agree with you. However, according to the OP, "I had my sub tied down with the fuck machine in one end and I in her mouth."

I wonder if she was physically capable of reacting in a manner that would have put an end to it all.

I also wonder about her emotional state at the time it happened. She is a submissive, in a public scene with her Master (journeyman or not), that includes his mentor, that he obviously honors. She uses her safe word and neither her Master or his mentor responds appropriately. What did this do to her emotionally? We subs are taught that Master is correct. If her Master and his mentor did not respond perhaps she was questioning if she'd used her safe word correctly or should have used it at all.

There are so many possible variables here. How long did the three additional strokes take to be administered? Could it be possible she just didn't have time to react before the three strokes were delivered. Could she have been totally shocked and in a place, both physically and mentally, that she just didn't know what to do?

I'm just throwing these thoughts out there to be considered.

The OP also states she "Did not seem to object to his delayed stopping". What, exactly, does "did not seem" mean?

Her Master was wrong for not protecting her. His mentor was wrong for continuing. And if I were the sub, I'd never be with either of them again.

(in reply to Padriag)

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RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:50:23 PM

sublizzie

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While I would agree with you that submissives need to take care of themselves, Padraig, there was something in his original post about his cock being in her mouth so she may not have been in a position to do a whole lot about it at the time. (Though I would think a wise Dominant would get such a delicate part of himself out of danger if his submissive had safeworded and not been heeded.) She may also have been so stunned that she couldn't react immediately. I know I can be in shock after something happens and not be able to react for a while. I think this scenario is a good lesson to submissives to be very careful who they choose as their Dominants. I keep waiting to hear that he has discussed this thoroughly with his submissive and apologized to her for what happened with an acknowledgement of a lesson learned himself. That is probably the only way I would be able to stay with someone who made that major of an error in dealing with me.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 52

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:54:33 PM

nookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

(Though I would think a wise Dominant would get such a delicate part of himself out of danger if his submissive had safeworded and not been heeded.)

That thought crossed my mind also. ~grinning~

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 53

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 7:55:14 PM

MstrssPassion

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I tend to agree... all three were responsible for what went on... this is in fact a situation involving consenting adults correct?

Yet ultimately the dominant is responsible for the scene that he/she controls. He is responsible for his or her own actions, for the actions of any other top who co-tops the scene & for the safety of the bottom(s) involved. This accountability is something that defines us as being a dominant & places us in a situation that we are indeed in control of the dynamics we set up & maintain.

From the way this story was told... even with the poorly formed sentences... it would seem that the mentor-dom (alex) jumped in with an already active scene. It was not stated that the sub or fusion himself had previously discussed this man taking part in this particular scene... seems like it just kinda happened & that fusion just kinda let it happen. By doing so he has to assume all responsibility for anything that went on because she has, by assumed common practiced of most in this, placed her trust in him as his submissive. They obviously made it a practice to use safewords or she would not have called one out... but again I assume this. It seems so much of this was just made up as it went along... I find it hard to believe any of the players had any amount of experience. Sounds like total rookies roughing their way through a first time scene.

But even though each, as consenting adults must share the responsibility of events that go wrong... ultimately the blame should fall to the top who was in ( I use this term loosely in this case) "in control" of the scene. Ultimately the dominant must be accountable for the activities they involve themselves in & accountable for those bottoms they involve in these activities especially when the bottom they subject to overwhelming stimulus is no longer able to vocalize objection much less verbalize a standard safeword. Anyone who has ever witnessed a sub who was flying high is subspace knows that they can only do so when they trust that they are being looked after... that the one or ones they have placed their trust in will look after them when they get lost in those tidal pools of emotion & ecstasy.

Sadly this girl... like many others, has placed her trust in person(s) that have decided to ignore this trust & defend chose to defend their reasons for doing so rather than admit that "yup, I screwed up & I will make damn sure I never allow my selfish reasons for being distracted to ever cause me to lose focus on those who place their safety in my hands again nor will I ever assume that other tops will respect my bottom's limits... I will ensure that they do prior to ever allowing them to interact with my bottom."

Well something along those lines like that needs to be said by fusion at this point because anything less than this will further support the suspicion that he is an arrogant, abusive individual unworthy of trust & that he really needs to be avoided by doms & subs alike. To repeat scenarios like the one described here could eventually turn out very badly... the only good thing about this is that it seems that no one was terribly hurt & a very valuable lesson can be learned by all involved... even those who have decades of experience still have plenty of room to learn.

Most of all... I hope everyone reading has learned some very valuable things.

I'm still wondering how she feels about this scene being broadcast out to strangers. Has she even agreed to the broadcast release of her getting it from both ends while some top lays into her with a cane?

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/5/2007 8:10:32 PM >

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RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 7:59:56 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fusion

.....managed to get her to say "Red"......

.... he applied three more stokes before stopping. .....

..... I asked about the three strokes in question. .....

.... Did not seem to object to his delayed stopping.

I took on the statements of your post and disgard on the rest as irrelevant to my post

First... what does the Calling out "RED" mean to you and your girl? I am sure many would assume that it means stop. However, if they made the assumption with regards to my play with my girls, they would be wrong.

Second, Did she call it out once... did he hear it the first time... did she have to call it out a couple times before it was acknowledged. So many questions need to be answered before a person can appropriately make any personal judgements of your given situation.

So, she didn't mind him not stopping... WHY?

I play to Red with my girls on occassion. However, playing to red doesn't empower them to stop play... it only communicates that they don't want another. They understand clearly that only I end play when I say play is done. It is not uncommon that I will push them to Red and give a few more afterward they communicate their desire. Is this edge play.. NO it's nothing more than a training techinque that I use with my girls. I am sure some individuals see this approach has showing the girls their place. In actual fact, it is not the focus of who has the authority. It is actually a approach to teach them that they can always push themselves further than their own minds limits them to. They call Red... and still they take a few more.. and play another time and they take more than the last time. In time you end up where alandra is... you just keep pushing, you will not quit. The important thing to realize is that this approach transfer's complete responsibility to the Top as well as a builds alot of trust between Top and Bottom. The Bottom gets into that mindset of not quiting... and the it falls on the Top to say when enough it enough. The mindset that develops because of this approach can be then transferred into other situation that are not simply play. Being able to convey to the Bottom that they learned we limit ourselves and breaking those limits can be very freeing. They come to challanges with new energy and determination... they end up pushing themselves to greater heights as result.

The important message to understand is what was being communicated with the shout of "RED" If it means STOP play.. then to have any creditibility as a means to communicate it must be result in "STOP PLAY"

Now if this did indeed mean stop play.. and she still didn't mind.... again... WHY?

This is very much an opportunity for growth but it will be lost if you both don't understand why she didn't mind. Does she even want to share the responsibility to stop play. Is she seeking to give you more trust and empower you more and also hand you tremendous responsibility as well? Do you even want that responsibility? Are you prepared for the risks? In essense .. is removing safewords a direction that your girl wants to go?

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/5/2007 8:04:01 PM >

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RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 8:00:35 PM

tulinwl

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I believe in pushing limits. However, a safeword has a purpose - and its purpose is to cease activity. Period. Once you pass that, it is no longer consensual.

(in reply to OhBeMyMind)

Post #: 56

RE: safe words whe does stop mea more? - 4/5/2007 8:32:55 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I agree with Lizzie- yes a sub does have responsibility to enforce their safe word to the extent possible. However, you really don't expect someone to ignore it when used and in this case- knowing it's your doms mentor and you're pretty helpless, I can see how three cane strokes wouldn't be long enough to get over the shock and make a decision on what to do, or to start fighting back. Even given my own years of experience, in a situation like that I think it would take a few cane strokes to realize "Wait, he's really not stopping" and probably growl out and begin to physically move around.

Unless I were in serious physical emergency pain, I can totally see this happening.

Violation is a weird thing- rape victims don't always physically fight back, that doesn't mean they deserved it or are irresponsible for their protection.

Now, if this had continued for longer or other circumstances arose, her portion of responsibility on allowing it to continue goes up and her sense of unpreparedness rises- although really, how many clueless newbies leap into scenes not even thinking or practicing "What do to if something goes wrong"?

And no matter what, nothing releases responsibility on the part of the others in the scene who allowed it to continue.

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Post #: 57

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 8:37:26 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nookie

I wonder if she was physically capable of reacting in a manner that would have put an end to it all.

I posited that same thought in my first post to this thread, how could she have said "red" with a mouth full of cock. To be blunt, something isn't adding up here. But, since I don't really know what did or didn't happen, its hard to say.

Even if she could not have responded right away, then she should have said something to her "dom" as soon as the "scene" was over. And if not then, then in the car when asked. She probably had several opportunities but apparently never said anything... and that always concerns me. I've seen too many submissives who meekly accept whatever is done to them, even when what was done is wrong or was not what they consented too. I give a very strong reprimand to submissives who do this, because its important they understand the need to speak up when certain boundaries have been crossed.

quote:

I also wonder about her emotional state at the time it happened. She is a submissive, in a public scene with her Master (journeyman or not), that includes his mentor, that he obviously honors. She uses her safe word and neither her Master or his mentor responds appropriately. What did this do to her emotionally? We subs are taught that Master is correct. If her Master and his mentor did not respond perhaps she was questioning if she'd used her safe word correctly or should have used it at all.

I don't doubt that your assessment is probably spot on correct. I would imagine she was very much questioning herself. And that's the problem. While I teach any submissive I deal with to obey, I also stress developing core values that should never be violated. There are rules that should never be broken by anyone, not even me. If that does happen, I stress to these submissives the importance that they speak up and if necessary remove themselves from a situation because they have a responsibility to protect themselves. Not everyone teaches this, I wish they would, we might have a few less submissives who allow themselves to be abused. That is also why I use strong terms about it, because its that important.

quote:

Could she have been totally shocked and in a place, both physically and mentally, that she just didn't know what to do?

Very possible, even probable. That's why teaching the importance of certain rules and core values is so important... that a submissive doesn't have to consciously think about it, it becomes a reflex. That reflex can protect, just as the reflex to pull you hand out of a fire protects... you don't need to think about and it doesn't matter if you are shocked or confused, the reflex happens anyway. Apparently, this submissive has never been taught that, and that left her vulnerable.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to nookie)

Post #: 58

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 8:43:49 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
While I teach any submissive I deal with to obey, I also stress developing core values that should never be violated. There are rules that should never be broken by anyone, not even me. If that does happen, I stress to these submissives the importance that they speak up and if necessary remove themselves from a situation because they have a responsibility to protect themselves. Not everyone teaches this, I wish they would, we might have a few less submissives who allow themselves to be abused. That is also why I use strong terms about it, because its that important.

I am blessed to have Dominants in my life who are working to teach me this as well. It is difficult for me to protect myself, though I am learning. (Just did a good job of it this weekend. Yea me!) I've been told by other people that I shouldn't ever protect myself from them or any other "dominant". I've watched other submissives go through horrible things that messed up their heads because they didn't know how to extricate themselves from the situations. It is good to see Dominants like you telling submissives to take care of themselves. Thank you.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 59

RE: safe words when does stop mean more? - 4/5/2007 8:47:58 PM

mstrjx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: nookie

I wonder if she was physically capable of reacting in a manner that would have put an end to it all.

I posited that same thought in my first post to this thread, how could she have said "red" with a mouth full of cock

Maybe with her mouth and the size of his cock, the Declaration of Independence might have been spoken clearly. You never know.

Jeff

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(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 60

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