RE: Adhering to hard limits

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Aswad -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 7:57:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave did not and does not limit Him, softly or hardly, so there is nothing for Him to "push". This kind of illustrates the point of my post. There are personal limits, which I usually refer to as soft limits, and relationship limits, which I usually refer to as hard limits. The more common use appears to be to split "soft" limits into "soft" and "hard" limits and not have a specific term for true "hard" limits. You do not impose any limits on the relationship, i.e. hard limits, so there's nothing for him to break there, but for anyone who does have hard limits, breaking them is rape (willfully acting without prior or current consent). You probably have tons of personal limits, i.e. soft limits, some of which will be softer than others. These will be "pushed" if he decides to do one of those things, but breaking them is okay, since they're soft. I'm pretty sure you have things that he will have to force you to do, some of which will require exceptional force, even if there is nothing you didn't consent to when you gave yourself to him.

damia -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:05:12 AM)
Yes, I have the desire to overcome my fears and hard limits (some, at least). The knee problem, for example. I have gone to physical therapy, tried to get my knees better, and I plan to start going to the gym to work on it on my own, too. I plan to eventually work on the mental/emotional damage that was caused in the psych ward, and the reason straightjackets are a hard limit, but first I have to get over my fear of psychiatrists, doctors, and hospitals, which are in direct relationship to that same psych ward visit. However, I would never consider trying to overcome them through a scene. Things like post-traumatic stress disorder (as you stated in your post) and borderline personality disorder (which I suffer from) shouldn't be taken lightly, and shouldn't be pushed by a non-professional, no matter how well-intended they are. In this way, I very much agree with Aswad's post below, that anyone who is going to use BDSM to treat psychiatrical problems needs to be qualified as a therapist. I applaud Aswad for having obtained the skills to deal with disorders, and agree with his skepticism of people trying to use BDSM as therapy when they don't have the background to support it. If I found a therapist who also happened to be a Dom, and My Lord and I agreed that it was acceptable and worth trying, I would probably do it. I'd be much more comfortable with it than sitting in a hospital office in front of their big desk with them prodding at me with questions and accusations. I hope that answers your questions, and thank you for the compliment on my post. I'm glad it helps someone.

BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:13:35 AM)
I push mines hard limits because once pushed past what they in their own mind thought was hard may be very pleasurable once crossing over.A owner must always continue to test and push the limits of their property....like I stated ours are only allow the limits we as owners impose on ourselfs.....bounty

Aswad -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:16:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER OURS hard limits are no children or animals"I used to owns k9s before we got together tho"no scat and no broken bones, the rest are open for discussion..OUR are only allowed limits which we impose on ourselfs and therefore are theirs ...bounty Those, particularly the first one, would be the prime examples of what I pointed out that beth probably have as personal limits. Since she doesn't have relationship limits, she'll have to do it if Marc decides he wants to, but it'll be a pretty "hard" soft limit for her to cross, which is how it seems most people here use the term "hard" limit. I call the relationship limits "hard" because you either break them or not, and breaking them is breaking the terms of prior consent, making it regular nonconsensual slavery, while I call personal limits "soft" because they can be pushed and may yield, although some are softer than others. This confusion is why I try not to use these terms when posting online, although that sense of those terms is common to everyone I know in real life, since this varies from community to community and people pick up their terms different places. P.S. Marc: I wasn't suggesting you would do those things, just pointing out that she'd have to if you ever did, thus using the two of you as an example.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:20:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave did not and does not limit Him, softly or hardly, so there is nothing for Him to "push". This kind of illustrates the point of my post. There are personal limits, which I usually refer to as soft limits, and relationship limits, which I usually refer to as hard limits. The more common use appears to be to split "soft" limits into "soft" and "hard" limits and not have a specific term for true "hard" limits. You do not impose any limits on the relationship, i.e. hard limits, so there's nothing for him to break there, but for anyone who does have hard limits, breaking them is rape (willfully acting without prior or current consent). You probably have tons of personal limits, i.e. soft limits, some of which will be softer than others. These will be "pushed" if he decides to do one of those things, but breaking them is okay, since they're soft. I'm pretty sure you have things that he will have to force you to do, some of which will require exceptional force, even if there is nothing you didn't consent to when you gave yourself to him. you seem to have misunderstood this slave's response. to clarify: this slave is not and was not, the one in this relationship that sets or enforces limits. in so doing, this slave does not limit the relationship OR Master, in any way, and has not from the beginning. it is what this slave refers to as surrender, some refer to it as the difference between sub and slave, but surely that discussion is not the intent of the thread. How can you be so sure there are things He will have to "force" this slave to do? One does not have to "force" a willing, consenting participant to do anything. What sort of "soft" limits do you have in mind when you state that you believe this slave "probably" has, when she has already stated she most certainly doesn't? Edited to add: Aswad, quote: P.S. Marc: I wasn't suggesting you would do those things, just pointing out that she'd have to if you ever did, thus using the two of you as an example. Regardless to whatever is suggested I "would" require or would not require beth do, the answer that you should know is, as beth knows, I *could*. Whenever this topic rears its ugly head the focus is always on the end. Lost and unconsidered is how we, or better yet beth, got to the point where she could represent that she has "no limits" when it comes to our relationship. The bottom line, as we've said countless times, is that she has limits - MINE. There is no such consideration for "hard/soft". These relative terms are irrelevant. You are correct, whatever I want to do - I do. Whatever I require that she does - she does. How we got there was a matter of time. Time allowed for experience. Experience generated and grew deepening trust. Eventually the trust reached a point of 'critical mass' giving beth the confidence to become MY "no limits" slave. Truth be told, my limits are more restrictive than beth's. My limits, limit beth; she doesn't question them. There is no proving the concept. Coming to our home with a challenge to remove an appendage as proof is as stupid as asking to prove the ownership of a luxury car by driving it over a cliff. beth is my possession, much more valuable and precious than any other I own. I know, with an infinite degree of confidence, that she will refuse nothing that I ask of her. I don't "push" her - I tell her. My limit is doing no permanent harm, mentally or physically, to someone that took 30 years to come into my possession.

dawntreader -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:34:37 AM)
Brussel sprouts and curry?! LOL They are actually quite tasty when put together and roasted!! i make a point of connecting with people who's hard limits mimic mine for the most part. i have very few but they are the biggies and in my opinion say alot about the person who has these limits. so far i have never been with anyone that pushed these because they are shared limits~ j

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 8:40:26 AM)
As it usually turns out in threads like these, the abstract discussion of hard limits seems to encourage people to list and discuss those limits. Please do not let the discussion sway into the realm of listing and discussing those particular hard limits which are forbidden topics of discussion or this thread will join it's siblings in the land of the deleted. Thank you, XI

SimplyMichael -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 10:26:16 AM)
quote: quote: Its a lot like anal sex, its ALWAYS hot to talk about shoving a big cock in without lube but the reality isn't always quite as hot. Define "hot"? I've always found the reality of it to be a lot better than the talking. I was using anal as an example, like oral sex, there are actually people out there who haven't experienced the glories of it. Some have fears, etc. It could just as easily be rape, groups of men, etc. TALKING about having a monogamous woman gang banged while fucking her mouth and shoving her back on a dildo mounted on the wall can take her to a place past where she would go in real life. It is a way of exploring and playing with limits that can be hot.

StellaByStarlite -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 12:16:31 PM)
Hello. =) Hard limits aren't really a topic the Mister and I discuss in detail. I mean.. technically as a slave, I have none. He knows me well enough, though, not to attempt anything new without making sure I won't be traumatized. The only thing that makes my stomach turn to jelly is mummification. We might try it someday, time'll tell. Stella

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 1:11:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ckmidmodom A dom myself and arrogance is nothing more than an attempt to hid the fact that you are probably out of shape, physically unclean and only have been able to lure a few fat bitches who aren't sure who they are into your web. Oh, I get it.. Today is opposite day! Try looking at a few past posts of the OP, reading the profile, looking at some pictures and then coming back here and speak from a place of knowledge, not absolute ignorance.

FukinTroll -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 1:12:47 PM)
I appreciate all the replies greatly. As XI pointed out, we don’t really need to discus the limit, just the parameters of the OP. I suppose the thread was started because I am weary of the doormat concept of slavery and that a slave would have no limits. I feel SimplyMichael has said it very well when he stated he seduced limits, which resonated with me. I feel that easing a new slave into her life is much more viable than expecting him/her to have no limits. IMO YMMV

StellaByStarlite -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:00:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll I appreciate all the replies greatly. As XI pointed out, we don’t really need to discus the limit, just the parameters of the OP. I suppose the thread was started because I am weary of the doormat concept of slavery and that a slave would have no limits. I feel SimplyMichael has said it very well when he stated he seduced limits, which resonated with me. I feel that easing a new slave into her life is much more viable than expecting him/her to have no limits. IMO YMMV Yes, Mister Trollio, that's it. =) My owner and I deal with "limits" on a learn-as-we-go basis, really. Sex is supposed to be fun, after all... getting all over-analytical about hard limits just deflates the mood, lol. If, say... fireplay happens to come up in the future, we'll talk about it then. If the Mister gets a sudden desire to shove my face in pureed cornedbeef, then we'll discuss it. you get my general drift. =)

daddysprop247 -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:28:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll I appreciate all the replies greatly. As XI pointed out, we don’t really need to discus the limit, just the parameters of the OP. I suppose the thread was started because I am weary of the doormat concept of slavery and that a slave would have no limits. I feel SimplyMichael has said it very well when he stated he seduced limits, which resonated with me. I feel that easing a new slave into her life is much more viable than expecting him/her to have no limits. IMO YMMV tho i can understand that view, for some of us an understood part of slavery is that a slave ceases to have her own limits upon becoming owned. now, of course those things which were formerly hard limits or no-go zones are still going to be difficult and possibly stir up some issues, but the Master has the right to subject her to those things. i don't do well with being "eased" into things. in the first 2 years of my slavery, my Master subjected me to some of the most intense, extreme, frightening things (absolutely everything that would have formerly been a limit), and then over time, once i endured those things and was able to come back to myself again, things shifted to more of a "normal" state. although i struggled mightily and at times wondered what the heck had i gotten myself into, wanted to run away, etc., in the end i feel his method was far more effective and beneficial than the little-by-little, easy does it method you and others refer to. you could liken it to swimming in a body of cool water...is it easier to dip in one toe at a time, then your calf, then thigh, and so on and so on, until finally you're immersed? or to simply dive right in, endure the quick shock, recover, and move on with your swim?

Aswad -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:35:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave is not and was not, the one in this relationship that sets or enforces limits. in so doing, this slave does not limit the relationship OR Master, in any way, and has not from the beginning. it is what this slave refers to as surrender, some refer to it as the difference between sub and slave, but surely that discussion is not the intent of the thread. Quite agree, that discussion is dead, as far as I'm concerned. This one was about limits, where I feel it is relevant in a D/s context (this being the Ask a submissive/slave part of the forum) to distinguish personal ones (that is, stuff the sub/slave has issues with doing, and would be reluctant to do) from relationship limits, i.e. real hard limits (that is, stuff the sub/slave has not consented to up front, and has specifically stated as a limit of their consent). quote: How can you be so sure there are things He will have to "force" this slave to do? One does not have to "force" a willing, consenting participant to do anything. What sort of "soft" limits do you have in mind when you state that you believe this slave "probably" has, when she has already stated she most certainly doesn't? If you're certain that you'd hump a dog or a kid if he told you to do it, without this being hard for you to do, then you have no soft limits. If he'd need to push or force you to do that, it's a personal limit, one I'm in no way suggesting breaking. I'm using it as an example, as it will most likely make it easy to imagine the mental response that makes it a personal limit. If being forced to do it isn't a limit of your consent, which it isn't according to what you've said, then you don't have a relationship limit on that, what most people I know call a *hard* limit. Most subs/slaves do have at least some limits of this kind, and it does not matter how far out they place them, breaking such limits when they are present constitute acting without consent, i.e. involuntary slavery. quote: Regardless to whatever is suggested I "would" require or would not require beth do, the answer that you should know is, as beth knows, I *could. I have no problem with this. That's what I meant by acknowledging that she has no hard* limits, i.e. no relationship limits. quote: Whenever this topic rears its ugly head the focus is always on the end. Lost and unconsidered is how we, or better yet beth, got to the point where she could represent that she has "no limits" when it comes to our relationship. The bottom line, as we've said countless times, is that she has limits - MINE.[/quite] The process of getting to the level of obedience where the slave will obey any order, regardless of its content, is a topic for a different thread, and one I would find very interesting in its own right. It is not the topic of this thread, though. If she has gotten to the point where the examples I gave are no longer things that she would be reluctant to do for you, then she has no personal limits either. Two different things, which I tried to differentiate, as it is important to make sense of the threads here. To anyone using the terminology common to the circles I'm from, this thread comes across as most posters here caring nothing about consent from non-slave partners, which I kind of doubt is the case. quote: There is no such consideration for "hard/soft". These relative terms are irrelevant. They are certainly irrelevant to Gorean lifestyle, which I seem to recall nephandi telling me had been what you two chose. But this being a D/s forum not specific to Gor, these terms are not irrelevant in the context of this discussion, as they determine what the OP was asking about. quote: Truth be told, my limits are more restrictive than beth's. My limits, limit beth; she doesn't question them. There is no proving the concept. I did not suggest proving the concept. Given the examples I used to illustrate the point, it would indeed be illegal for me to suggest such a thing. quote: Coming to our home with a challenge to remove an appendage as proof is as stupid as asking to prove the ownership of a luxury car by driving it over a cliff. beth is my possession, much more valuable and precious than any other I own. I have not come to your home with any challenges, nor requested any proofs. quote: I know, with an infinite degree of confidence, that she will refuse nothing that I ask of her. I don't "push" her - I tell her. Excellent. Good for you. No offense, but can we return to the topic? [;)] quote: My limit is doing no permanent harm, mentally or physically, to someone that took 30 years to come into my possession. Seems like a wise choice of limits. Slaves do not grow on trees, nor are they generally available at the supermarket [:D]

gypsygrl -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:35:57 PM)
quote: I suppose the thread was started because I am weary of the doormat concept of slavery and that a slave would have no limits. One of the reasons I've entertained the concept of slavery is because I'm such a flake when it comes to my own limits. I'm far more committed to respecting the other person's boundaries and no-go areas than I am to protecting my own. Its not that I don't have limits in the way others talk about them. I do. They just aren't mine. The ones I set myself feel more like things to do or challenges, even when they scare me half to death.

Aswad -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:38:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven As it usually turns out in threads like these, the abstract discussion of hard limits seems to encourage people to list and discuss those limits. Please do not let the discussion sway into the realm of listing and discussing those particular hard limits which are forbidden topics of discussion or this thread will join it's siblings in the land of the deleted. I just now saw this reply, so I apologize if I've overstepped those bounds. The examples have been meant to elucidate the point by using examples that are usually fairly universal hard limits. If the post was inappropriate, I trust you will delete it.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 2:52:52 PM)
quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave is not and was not, the one in this relationship that sets or enforces limits. in so doing, this slave does not limit the relationship OR Master, in any way, and has not from the beginning. it is what this slave refers to as surrender, some refer to it as the difference between sub and slave, but surely that discussion is not the intent of the thread. quote: Quite agree, that discussion is dead, as far as I'm concerned. This one was about limits, where I feel it is relevant in a D/s context (this being the Ask a submissive/slave part of the forum) to distinguish personal ones (that is, stuff the sub/slave has issues with doing, and would be reluctant to do) from relationship limits, i.e. real hard limits (that is, stuff the sub/slave has not consented to up front, and has specifically stated as a limit of their consent). quote: quote: How can you be so sure there are things He will have to "force" this slave to do? One does not have to "force" a willing, consenting participant to do anything. What sort of "soft" limits do you have in mind when you state that you believe this slave "probably" has, when she has already stated she most certainly doesn't? quote: If you're certain that you'd XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX if he told you to do it, without this being hard for you to do, then you have no soft limits. If he'd need to push or force you to do that, it's a personal limit, one I'm in no way suggesting breaking. I'm using it as an example, as it will most likely make it easy to imagine the mental response that makes it a personal limit. If being forced to do it isn't a limit of your consent, which it isn't according to what you've said, then you don't have a relationship limit on that, what most people I know call a *hard* limit. Most subs/slaves do have at least some limits of this kind, and it does not matter how far out they place them, breaking such limits when they are present constitute acting without consent, i.e. involuntary slavery. quote: quote: Regardless to whatever is suggested I "would" require or would not require beth do, the answer that you should know is, as beth knows, I *could. quote:* I have no problem with this. That's what I meant by acknowledging that she has no hard limits, i.e. no relationship limits. quote: quote: Whenever this topic rears its ugly head the focus is always on the end. Lost and unconsidered is how we, or better yet beth, got to the point where she could represent that she has "no limits" when it comes to our relationship. The bottom line, as we've said countless times, is that she has limits - MINE. quote: The process of getting to the level of obedience where the slave will obey any order, regardless of its content, is a topic for a different thread, and one I would find very interesting in its own right. It is not the topic of this thread, though. If she has gotten to the point where the examples I gave are no longer things that she would be reluctant to do for you, then she has no personal limits either. Two different things, which I tried to differentiate, as it is important to make sense of the threads here. To anyone using the terminology common to the circles I'm from, this thread comes across as most posters here caring nothing about consent from non-slave partners, which I kind of doubt is the case. quote: quote: There is no such consideration for "hard/soft". These relative terms are irrelevant. quote: They are certainly irrelevant to Gorean lifestyle, which I seem to recall nephandi telling me had been what you two chose. But this being a D/s forum not specific to Gor, these terms are not irrelevant in the context of this discussion, as they determine what the OP was asking about. quote: quote: I know, with an infinite degree of confidence, that she will refuse nothing that I ask of her. I don't "push" her - I tell her. quote: Excellent. Good for you. No offense, but can we return to the topic? [;)] no offense, but hard limits and pushing them was included in the OP. out of respect for MOD XI, who has specifically asked that those engaged in this thread do not discuss things deemed inappropriate by the Benefactors of CM, and therefore violations of TOS, those things have been removed from the above quote and will not be brought up again, or used as examples by this slave again. nephandi gave you inaccurate information. no disrespect or offense to those that do, but we are not followers of the way of Gor. regardless of the adjectives added to the word "limit(s)", be they "hard", "relationship", "soft","personal", etc., this slave's point in clarifying the above for you still remains: ANY limit(s) with regard to the relationship we have or as Master or slave, are detailed, set and enforced by Master, according to HIS taste, preference and desires. this slave did not and does not limit Him.

ScreamerGirl -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 3:01:03 PM)
My hard limits revolve around things like health and safety, prison time, morality... Thus, they aren't going anywhere anytime soon....more appropriately, ever. I don't have soft limits anymore. I have a few hard limits that involve me not getting sick or dead or mired in guilt or imprisoned. That's it. Anyone trying to push those isn't someone I want to be submitting to in the first place.

jauntyone -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 3:06:27 PM)
Greetings Master Loki As stated in another thread, I have no limits what-so-ever in regards to my relationship with Master. There is way too much to explore and learn and I refuse to place limitations on that. Master has a simple rule that I am to follow and that is 'if at any time I fear for my life, I am to do everything in my power to fight back " I do not look on this as a limitation though; it is instead instinct and nothing more. However, even with all this said and done; if Master was to try something with me, and I found it distasteful; it would not matter. He has the right to do it again if he so chooses. I wish you well melissa

kiyari -> RE: Adhering to hard limits (4/12/2007 3:40:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I hate these sort of threads. I believe limits should be expected and that many who push limits should be pushed off a cliff. That said, I fucking LOVE pushing limits. Pushing however isn't the best word for it. I don't push limits I seduce them, I don't undermine them, I respect them. Its a lot like anal sex, its ALWAYS hot to talk about shoving a big cock in without lube but the reality isn't always quite as hot. However, talking about it, teasing it, showing respect AND patience often yields rewards and offers an amazing bonding experience. The trick is to not expect anything, something at times I find hard but that is where patience comes in. bows Sounds as though you push to confront fears and prejudices... hey, try it 'once' [or 'thrice'] before you cross it off for good. Voice of ['some'] reason... nice to hear [see]. [:)] [no sarcasm whatsoever has been employed in this posting]

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