RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (Full Version)

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eyesopened -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 2:23:12 AM)

Any peice of property is going to need some maintenance and repair.  i learned the hard way that there are some people who will simply tow their car to the junk yard if it leaks oil or release a slave if she leaks a few tears. 

A Gardener tends His garden, increasing the soil's yeild, the produce is the testament to His skill, His patience, His ability to know which nutrients to add, when the soil is too soft, never over-tilling.  He plants the seeds suitable for that soil, changes the soil's composition slowly so that it can be ready to accept the seeds, never sows the seeds and then try to change the soil.  But even with all His tending He knows what can grow in His climate which is why you never see cotton fields in Minnesota.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 3:49:31 AM)

I really, really appreciate all of the replies. I asked because the person I refer to was saying things to me like (I am para-phrasing, but this was pretty much the essence of the e-mail I received):

"If you were to become my submissive, you would be changing your very essence. You will change the color of your hair, work out more, become extremely deferential to me, even being willing to change your career, and geographic location.
Your entire life will be vastly different from what you now may envision for yourself.
You will stop questioning the need in yourself to be completely "Mastered"...after I really thought about this - I stopped and just thought to myself: WTF? 

I thought - where is this coming from? This person doesn't know me, and even if he did, how did he decide this, really?

It wasn't that I was objecting to the idea, totally (or even partially, really) . I was just slightly confused about how someone can decide what to change in another - without knowing them pretty well, first.

And even then...is there a "line" as far as this kind of thing goes, and if so - where is it?  I mean, if we're talking my entire life will change - do I get any say so in that, and how it might - at all? 

While I did to some degree, chalk this up to someone possibly gathering "wanking material" for themselves, since I barely knew him at all, when he e-mailed me this small missive re: How I Will Change To Please Him, (he'd previously e-mailed me twice, and those were very short e-mails) -

it did get me thinking about where one "draws any line", re: Expecting someone else to change for them, or how much it is really necessary. Maybe this message wasn't particularly "abusive" on its face - but there's some room for that to occur in the future, certainly, should this line of thinkig be taken to an extreme (at least I wondered about it, anyway).

I was slightly insulted, too. I mean, I may not be Angelina Jolie, but I am not ugly, or obese (at all), I work out, consider myself to be a pretty nice person to begin with, and it wasn't like I'd refused in any way to so far to act particularly "submissive" toward said person.

And also, his personality, and his pic, were appealing to me in other ways, so it wasn't like I was completely un-attracted.

So I stated wondering about this. I also (at present anyway) don't even have a "career", and have already stated a willingness to possibly re-locate for a Dominant, if we reach that point in any future relationship.

*I have also had extensive discussions via e-mail w/a submissive friend of mine within this past year, whose ex-Dominant did really "set her up to fail", IMO.

If she lost 10 pounds, instead of congratulating her, or complimenting her, she was "still fat", and needed to lose another 10 pounds (and she wasn't "fat" to begin with, not even close, really).

Ditto for her some of her other attempts to please him: If she was told to wear a certain out-fit for him, he'd not ever really tell her she looked nice - it was more like he'd make fun of her appearance in little ways, to undermine her self-confidence. He did this consistently, too.

He even tried to get her to doubt whether she was the person he wanted, and made her believe he was seeing other females on the side (they were not Poly), even though he wasn't doing that.

For almost 6 months, she was convinced by him she "wasn't submissive enough" for him, even though I kept telling her he was full of BS. They finally broke up, and I can't say I was sad to see that (even though she was). In my opinion, she is still recovering from the detrimantal affects of this relationship, even though she is now seeing someone new. 

IMO, any new Dominant of hers, is probably going to end up having to deal with the fall-out from this guy's "tactics" of dominance, even though they had no hand in that scenario. Plus she now needs a definite self-confidence "booster shot", due to his past arrogance and its affects on her, IMO. 

I just thought it was too bad, and also maybe avoidable. But she was somehow convinced this was "his right as a Dominant", and it took her awhile to see he was just maybe a_hole, instead, IMO.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Thanks for listening.

Thanks for the replies. I thought it might be an interesting topic to discuss. I started to wonder about the meaning of the term "dominance."

- Susan 



MariaB -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 3:52:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things.  I LOVE changing people, that is why I am a daddy.  I have to be careful that I don't pick someone who needs TO much nurturing but I do love it. 



I have just read the entire post and most of the replies are really good. I quoted this particular post because I think the words “setting someone up to fail” really says it all.
Goes off and writes that saying down in my little black book!!

I may make my sub into a table or a foot stool for the evening! I may make a male sub into a female or a female into a male for a bit of fun but surely if I desired to make my sub ‘personality wise’ into something they are not, then I would not be doing a joint pleasurable action and isn’t this what ‘this’ is all about?

I went out with a vanilla guy for a while who obviously didn’t like me for who I was and clearly wanted to change me into something I am not. Of course this never works because clearly he did not fancy me for being me so I obviously did not have his head and no matter how much I changed I was never going to meet his ridiculous goals.
It turned out that his previous girlfriend had looked very similar to me but that’s where it stopped. My personality was very different to hers and of course that, to him was a huge disappointment. In his ignorance he thought perhaps that he could make another exact copy!

Trying to change someone on this sort of score has nothing whatsoever to do with D/s its all to do with not being satisfied with what one has got and its just damaging and a waste of time.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 4:20:27 AM)

MariaB: I tend to agree (thanks for the reply) - I mean, what is the point, really, in expecting that of someone? It isn't (to me) like that necessarily has much to do with the "quality" of someone's submission, really. I always though it was more about two people working with eachother, not against eachother, for the most part.

I can see how a Dominant's desires take precedence, and I am not objecting to that - at all. That is the whole idea of a D/s relationship, in fact. Which is why, IMO, it can pay to be thougtful about how one implements (and receives) "efforts to dominate" (or be dominated), maybe? 

Again, I just need to know I suppose, that someone's motives really aren't altogether selfish, all the time - I mean, isn't part of beneficial dominance having the submissive's best interests at heart?  

What I find slightly disturbing, is that refusing to act on every whim of someone else (a Dominant), can definitely be construed to have more than a little to do with the "quality of their submission", if someone wants to portray it that way. 

This could be good or bad, I suppose, depending on how it's "used"...  


*This thread is not a slam to Dominants, either. Most of the ones I've met or e-mailed, or talked to are genuinely sane, nice people, and I am not doubting their intentions as a group (I am not. At all). It's just that every once in  awhile, I can start to wonder "what it's all about", 'ya know?

- Susan 



curiouslyseeking -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 4:50:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things.  I LOVE changing people, that is why I am a daddy.  I have to be careful that I don't pick someone who needs TO much nurturing but I do love it. 

I would ONLY do that in a committed long term relationship but I hope that anyone I am with comes out different at the end, a better person but one shaped a bit by and for me. 


I believe the thread took a huge twist from the original questions..There is a difference in changing them and setting a sub up to fail.  In my opinion, two different topics trying to merge here.
 
However, SimplyMichael sums it up quite well.
 
For me, I guess I like to keep things simple on my journey of surrender..once I give myself into a committed relationship, I don't have to ask these questions to myself if I would allow a Dominant to change me..the answer is there.  I am His.
 
"I will accept with an open heart and mind any changes that my Master wants to make in me to mold me to be more perfect for Him"
 
And you know what?  I have no regrets...each relationship I have come out a better person by giving these decisions away.
 
We are constantly changing and evolving whether Dominance in our life or life experiences is the driver....and hopefully becoming better, not bitter.
 
have an inspiring day,
~curious~



DanceDreaming -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 4:56:34 AM)

I am well aware I will never find someone who is exactly what I am seeking, so I have no fear of changing a sub. We are all in a constant state of change. I have no issue with guiding the flow of that change, or even stimulating it to change more quickly.

What has been discussed here, about 'setting someone up to fail', is a powerful method of changing someone very quickly. The actual changes made don't seem likely to be good though. Changing someone into a hurt and broken sub doesn't seem very useful, and emotional abuse isn't my kink. I doubt it's yours either.

But changing? Shaping, molding, rearranging the person until they match what I desire more fully? Of course, I can't not.

If I am walking through a wood, and desire a staff, I will look for a piece of wood. I may search the deadwood, or cut a new piece. I will choose this, along with length, curve or straightness, thickness, weight, hardness of wood, by selecting amongst what's available, and in accord with my desires. By the cutting to length, and removal of spare branches, I quickly change the nature of the stick. It is now a staff, it has also become -my- staff.

Over time, if I keep such a staff, I will most likely continue work on it. I might carve it, or sand it, I might finish it, or decorate it. As time goes on, certain spots might shape themselves to my hands, where I like to hold it. Although I carve into it to shape it, I am careful not to weaken it overmuch, for I value it's strength. I wish to keep my staff, that I've carried with me through so many adventures. It is now my companion.

And so it is with submissives.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:03:18 AM)

Thanks for the replies. I guess I am asking:

Where, specifically does anyone consider that "line of submisson" (or dominance) to be? It is okay to talk in generalities, and I appreciate anyone who simply reads the thread. I appreciate the very good analogies that have been offerred, they are very instructive in  a good way - I realize that dominance can be a sword that indeed "cuts both ways"

I've personally observed people in relationships, though, who, because they really care for someone, or have become uber-dependent on them, can be convinced that just about anything is going to be considered "in their own best interest" whether or not, that is actually likely to be the case.

And since dominating someone involves (to a degree) not questioning the motives of one's Dominant, I am hoping for some detailed discussion, and possibly personal examples, re: Where people decide to cooperate with, or expect requests to be adhered to - along this line.  

Any personal stories are appreciated (but of course nobody needs to divulge anything they're not comfortable with. It's actually all up to anyone reading, and I realize that is personal for some; but it doesn't need to be attached to names, and can be hypothetically described, too).

Maybe I am concerned about this because in a way, Ive sort of "been there" myself (and don't want to "go there" again. Once was enough, as far as becoming a pretzel for someone who appeared to not apprecite my efforts. But I've also had happy relatiohips).

I can see how people do get into situations where what they once considered "beneficial" for themselves, (or for another can find themselves re-thinking whether or not it actually is.

And I don't necessarily think some of those situations always come attached with big "red flags". So I guess I am kind of wondering how one decides "what's okay" to expect, or ask, someone to do - and just what's not (and ditto for cooperating w/those demands or requests).

And - because I really truly do "want to be a good submissive", I find that line can be sometimes hard for me personally to draw. Especially since the essence of a D/s rleatonship is "dominance and submission" and IK want to "do a good job" in a relationship (I really do.) 

I know people will maybe claim that it (going overboard on this, possibly) "can't happen unless you want it to happen", etc - Possibly that's true -, but that doesn't really answer the question, and it can be a hard line to draw sometimes, IMO.

I am not meaning to be disrespectful in saying the above (at all),  I am really wondering about it, though. It's been on my mind all evening (for a few dyas, actually). I appreciate the thoughts and replies. Thanks for reading, and commenting. I consider this definite food for thought (for me), and hopefully I will get it sorted out. Maybe reading this thread will help someone else, too. 

- Susan



puella -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:13:25 AM)

Hello SusanofO,

Thank you for in interesting question.  I will be very eager to read some of the responses.

I always worry about posting a response to a question which is still very tender to me, but here goes.

Having lived through something of what you spoke in my former relationship, I will offer what may not be an objective point of view, but is an honest view from one side of the equation. 

I will preface my statement by saying that I am not now, or was I when I entered into my former relationship, a desperate, incapable, woman needing rescuing.  That is not the place my submission springs from.

I fell profoundly in love with and profoundly surrendered to my former owner.  It was the most intensive relationship I have ever been in, and it was the deepest I have ever allowed myself to go, knowing on some level that there are very dangerous vulnerabilities which get exposed when you hand those parts of yourself out of your own monitoring and over to another.

Perhaps one of the most delicate and essential parts you can hand over is the idea of self and of self worth.  (I am still not sure that it is a good idea to hand this over, even to the most beloved and revered partner; but I do understand it could very well just be a flaw in my own intensity of personality) 

Opening up such vulnerability, at least for me, made me much more sensitive about just about everything, good and bad, as I was in a constant process of handing over even the things I found to be the ugliest about myself.  It also opened up a can of worms where my failures to meet his desires drove me to destroy parts of myself he found less than pleasing, or which, I could not fix to make more pleasing to him.

Changing things like how it was preferred for me to serve, how it was preferred for me to do my hair or the manner in which I dressed were not usually a big deal... but even they could flair up within me to leave me feeling lacking, ugly, and essentially  not enough by the simplest of criticism about any one of them. 

(woops I hit a button before finished, sorry!)

As the changes that he wanted started to intensify and mount up, the insecurity and self loathing began to grow and work on me in very serious ways.  Some of this, I am sure brought him pleasures he never intended to get from me via those means, such as a constant drive to improve myself before he could find flaw, a constant drive to be more beautiful in appearance, a constant need to change into a person he would find more pleasing and more gratifying to have others know he owned, etc.

What that did  to me, the person, is something I would not wish upon anyone.  It really destroyed vital parts of the person who used to be vibrant, as it eroded away at my concept of self worth.  I willingly gave even that over to him, and even in release,  it is not something you get back when you are sent packing, with your passport and plane ticket.

The constant realization that me, just Jen, was pleasing to him, was eviscerated as the need for me to be things which where essentially different than the person I am naturally became the ultimate goal.  The desire for me to try to attain a level of physical beauty, youthfulness, uber-slavieness, and super-hottie status he desired, (and I wanted to be able to give all thes things to him) became a central focus, and when it was clear that there was no natural way for me to achieve these goals, and surgical enhancement  and personal psychological devolution would be needed, the more obvious conclusion (and to him, I think) to me was that....others could give this (and eagerly did) to him more pleasurably, readily, and prettily than I could, and eventually,  would become obsolete as a person who was at a contributor to his sexual desires and release… and really a companion… It is hard to be a companion to someone who doesn’t want you.

I came to understand that it didn't matter how much I wanted to please him, or how much I gave up to please him, or how much I eagerly labored to please him. 

I know my struggles and efforts were pleasing to him. However... Jen was not.  He wanted me to be someone else loving him and struggling for him the way I did. 

He loved the way I loved him.  He loved the way I served him.  He loved the way I surrendered to him, but he didn't love me.

Understanding that I did not essentially have enough value to be worth keeping, even when you have given the best and all of what you are, is damaging.

It has been a long time now.  My grief and struggles just to be a functioning person in society are thoroughly, if awkwardly charted in my journal.  Though I can walk down the street now and pass off as a 'whole' person.  I know I am still just damaged, at best.  That is part of the reason I have 'taken myself off the market' so to speak.  "Jen doesn't live here anymore" is still very applicable.

Trying to change the core of a person may work for some, but I would caution against it.  In the person's failure to become what you had wished they were from the outset, you my only ever get a ghost in the end.


I am not sure that I really presented my ideas clearly, and I am sorry for that… I am still looking for the clarity of distance.



curiouslyseeking -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:16:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Where, specifically does anyone consider that "line of submisson" (or dominance) to be?


I guess for me I don't see a line of submission..if there ever was a line I think it would be set initially with hard limits...all other go with the flow...
 
I think you would be in a constant state of tug-o-war with yourself and your Dominant if you questioned a line or looked for a line in all things.
 
It's really not that complicated even though we try to make it complex.
 
~curious~



IrishMist -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:21:49 AM)

In some cases it can be good susan. I know with my first relationship, he changed my personality totally and completly. What was good about it though is that he took some pretty violent rage that was inside me and managed to channel it into the relationship and onto him instead. If he had NOT been able to change my personality in that way, I most probably would have ended up dead myself.

For some, the complete personality change can be a lifesaver. It all depends on how much and WHY a person is willing to change.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:21:53 AM)

puella: I really appreciate your repsonse, thanks. I know if I am truly in love, that for me as well, things that may have once been considered "no big deal" to me can take on a "life of their own". Why? Because I do care so much more for that person than I otherwise might. Their opinion of me really, really matters to me (and I do have self-esteem as well, and quite a bit of it).

And when I do truly love someone, I tend to really do it with my whole heart, and not want to hold back (although, it can take awhile for me to dive in completely).

And supposedly, too, "real trust" is what that other person wants. It can be a conundrum. If you don't trust, you could be cheating them, and yourself. If you do, you can really get decimated, if things somehow go awry (or maybe even if they don't, in some cases).

I realize all relationships involve "risk". But I still think for submissives and slaves, that risk is sometimes magnified, simply due to the nature of the D/s relationships.

I realize Dominants can be vulnerable as well (and are), but the nature of the relationship sort of does dictate that the submissive turn themselves over to the Dominant. If someone is going to sincerely try to do this, I can see where it can be a path strewn with sometimes intense intimate risk (all rewards aside).

- Susan 



DanceDreaming -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:25:35 AM)

Ah, Susan....

You are afraid. You have been hurt before, and fear the notion of -really- giving up control. You fear that it will break you, unmake you. And so you play a very small game. You give up -some- control, but hold back the rest. You offer conditional submission.

That's ok. That's actually very normal. Most people won't give the whole thing right away. Trusting is very hard, surrender is not for everyone. The urge to submit though...is one to just...let go. To stop being so afraid, to stop worrying.

There is no line. There cannot be a line. The only lines that exist are the one that -you- make, with your hard limits(stated and silent), and those your dominant makes, for whatever reasons. There are no universal lines. There is no agreed upon protocol. There is no right way to do it.

Abuse can be a tricky thing here. Emotionally tearing someone down is terrible. It's possible the dom in question was breaking her down for the purpose of later building her up into something wonderful. Unlikely, but who knows. It's more probable he was a sad and broken creature himself, bringing others down to his level. People like this exist, learn how to notice them and avoid them.

But try as you might, you are not safe. You can never be safe. This world is not safe. No one gets out alive. No one goes through it without some torment. You can worry about that, or you can find a Dom you trust, who will worry about all that for you. Me....I embrace it.



curiouslyseeking -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:29:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DanceDreaming

But try as you might, you are not safe. You can never be safe. This world is not safe. No one gets out alive. No one goes through it without some torment. You can worry about that, or you can find a Dom you trust, who will worry about all that for you. Me....I embrace it.



Very profound words, DanceDreaming.
 
~curious~



MyMasterStephen -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:35:33 AM)

I want to totally dominate my submissive - indeed, to enslave her.  As part of this process, I will almost certainly want to make some changes in her.

Most of those changes will be in the form of education.  Teaching her new things, and teaching her how to do things in a way that pleases me.  Some will cross over into the physical - teaching her how to dress in a manner that turns me on, how to conduct herself appropriately in different types of company.  And some of the possible changes will be purely physical, for instance controlling her weight and encouraging her to keep fit.

I once met a submissive who was prepared to give up everything for a Dominant.  She was genuinely seeking a TPE relationship.  However, her personal style was so far removed from what I would have wanted for her that I declined her as a submissive.  I felt that to make such drastic changes to her - even though she would have been willing to change - simply would not be fair to her.  When I explained this, she fell to her knees and kissed my feet (in public!) and she has respected me ever since.

To totally dominate: yes.  To change: yes, although much would be "fine tuning".  To change totally: no.




SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:38:54 AM)

DanceDreaming: Well, I appreciate the comments, what you say is indeed true. When I first started investigating D/s, I was so in to the idea, I really was ready to turn myself completely, and almost immediately, to someone.

MyMaster Stephen: Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them, and the personal example in your response. Dominant opinions are very much valued, here. My intent is not in any way to "bash" Dominants.

I'd offer my own personal story more, (but anyone who reads these boards on a consistent basis, knows that is a story that has probably already been beaten to death by me).

So, I am posing this topic to try to deal w/ this issue (hopefully), and maybe it will help others as well.  But others stories are very helpful (puella, thanks so much, That was really helpful. I can relate in some ways, definitely.)

Irish Mist: I realize many Dominants do have their sub's best interests at heart (along w/their own needs), and that their guidance can indeed be very, very valuable for a submissive. I think maybe I need to start feeling that "in my gut" more often than previously I did (there was a time I didn't question it at all, really, too). Thanks for commenting.  

I think that the D/s aspect does make the relationship indeed very special, rewarding and is what it's all about. But - even if someone is not altogether abusive, some really need to stop and think about how much they themselves may deserve this kind of "total cooperation" if they simply expect auto-adherence (and I know this is a cliche' sentiment. It has recently struck home with me more than usual, however) .

I am not referring to you or being critical of your comment, DanceDreaming (heck, I appreciate your response a lot, and I don't even know you). 

I want to throw myself out there, and give myself fully, and I also think the other person very much needs to let me know they deserve my cooperation. I do tend (more than not) to give others the benefit of any doubt. I am not overly suspicious, really, nor do I consider submission some sort of "gift". I do need to feel I know somebody well enough to believe they won't abuse my trust.   

Fortunately, I have pretty good intuition re: Someone's motives. When I've ignored tha ability in myself to a large degree, I know I've definitely regretted it (and that's only happened twice in my life).

I do pay attention to "little tells" about someone more than I did say, five years ago, and I hope it's made a positive difference in my life (overall it has, I think, w/o completely destroying my optimism). I am attempting these days (truly) to be open-minded without being naive.

Crossing my fingers it eventually pays off (although I am not seriously "seeking" anyone - yet). It is harder than it looks (I hadn't realized that as much, before, I guess. I will learn to deal, and am just questioning more lately, I guess. I am sure many go through this, and I see happy folks all around in  rewarding relationships, so it is definitely possible). 

Thanks for the replies. The food for thought, and hopefully the topic will be beneficial to others, too, perhaps, in some way.

*All replies are very much appreciated. I really do think this can be an areas of some confusion for  many submissives (and maybe Dominants as well) at times.
I appreciate the oportunity to be able to help sort it out.

- Susan



thetammyjo -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:21:09 AM)

I believe that when someone starts from the position of "I will change this person" (Ds, vanilla, boss, whatever) that you have already lost that relationship.

While we do change over time and while we must make compromises and adjustments whenever another person enters our life, I think we are wisest when we find someone whom we are compatible with on all the important levels.

Let me give you some examples. We really dislikes sports in my household. I would be foolish to accept a potential slave if that person was a sports fan who needed his baseball, basketball, football, whatever and loved to attend games or watch them. He would be miserable in our house and we would be uncomfortable. Same thing for someone who though D&D was evil, she would freak out around us, and probably be worrying about her soul most of the time. Same for someone who was conservative or a Republican or fundamentalist or a Satanist -- that person just would not fit.

Instead of creating unhappy situations and a lot of work in trying to change someone, why not find compatible people? I have never understood the attraction to someone "I can change" though I do know that attraction exists.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:25:38 AM)

thetammyjo: I really, agree. Totally. I think, there are some who think doing this is some kind of "challenge". My Q would be - why? I guess. I am not totally opposed to the idea - it's just that it strikes me as:

1) A lot of work for the Dominant and the submissive (not that I am lazy, but still, if you're going to change someone, make it count for something, IMO).

2)  Pointless, unless it really is an area that will benefit the submissive or the Dominant (and benefit the submissive more maybe, if there is some question about who a submissive's deep personality change, for example -  benefits more - since she is the one who is changing, and the presumption is the Dominant has her/his welfare at heart, first and foremost).

Although I am I guess, undecided on this totally, it does make some definite sense to me (and, it didn't used to, actually). And I don't really consider myself to be a "militant" or "feminist" type of submissive, either. More a matter of what I consider "humane", emotional health, and where I feel lines of "personal liberty" (yes even in a D/s relationship) are drawn, perhaps.

- Susan



thetammyjo -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:39:49 AM)

Just because you are compatible does not mean that you won't change, I just think that change will flow more smoothly if you begin with more common ground.

It doesn't mean there won't be challenge, heck, we are human beings after all, I think "challenge" may be our middle names because I think having free will means you will find challenges and have to take responsibility for your choices.

It also does mean that the slave won't be trained or that the owner won't need to support and encourage them. It only means, once again, that by starting from a good solid commonness you can move onward together instead of struggling with those things you really don't like.



BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:45:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things.  I LOVE changing people, that is why I am a daddy.  I have to be careful that I don't pick someone who needs TO much nurturing but I do love it. 

Nothing like taking a woman out and getting her a whole new hairstyle, hair color, and having a whole new makeups style forced upon her.   That is short term.  I was mentored by a domme who loved taking lesbians and teaching them to crave cock and cum or to love anal.  One of only two women who have ever evoked submissive tendencies from me, she was truly amazing.

I would ONLY do that in a committed long term relationship but I hope that anyone I am with comes out different at the end, a better person but one shaped a bit by and for me. 


hmmmm...so tell me Michael...Did you submit?[sm=crop.gif]



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:47:58 AM)

Thank you, thetammyjo. I agree. 

I guess also since I am attracted to Sadistic Doms, even if they are Daddies" (to some degree, but not always, all the time), that this can sometimes be an extra "issue" for me. I need to think this over, and talk it out, and I very much appreciate everyone's comments.

I gotta go do a letter for someone on my PC, for something else, but I'll be back later (soon). Thanks so much, everyone.

- Susan



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