RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (Full Version)

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Padriag -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:53:40 AM)

First thing that went through my mind when I read this...

We can rebuild her.... we can make her better.... stronger.... faster....

da daaaa da da da.... da da da daaaa... sprrooooooiiiiinggggggg....

The Six Billion Dollar Submissive (inflation ya know)

Staring Linsay Lohen (riiiiiigggghhtttt)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

*Where does a "line" need to be drawn (if anywhere) as far as a Dominant wanting to change a submissive to "fit" their desires? 
 
However, my question is this: If a submissive is so utterly un-like what a Dominant thinks they need or want, in that they feel compelled to change almost everything about them, or otherwise alter their basic personality, isn't this really more a matter of simple incompatibility between two people, that maybe are just not a "good match"?
 
When is "enough" domination really "too much" in this regard? Is there a "line" you draw in  your own relationships at all, re: This kind of thing? Or a philopsophy you follow?

Seriously, people will draw it where ever suits them.  Some people like the idea of being a lump of clay for the dominant to mold and change.  Some write long posts about it in very poetic language and couched in those terms people get all weepy about it.  Put it in blunt terms and people freak out.  Humans are such funny critters.  Others don't like the idea of being changed any at all, no matter how you put it. 

My take on it is this.  Some change is healthy, its part of adapting to the stuff life throws at us.  Those who absolutely refuse to change any at all probably have some insecurity issues.  Those looking to be radically reshaped are probably not the healthiest people either.  I do not want to build the "six billion dollar submissive" so to speak.  .oO(Hmmm... k... couple of bionic mods might be interesting... I've a warped imagination [;)] )   Anyone who gets involved with me will change, just by being around me.  That happens because being around me will probably mean being exposed to new experiences you haven't had before, learning new things, having new opportunities... all of which tends to change your perspective, even change who you are.  Funny thing is, every person I've ever been  involved with changed me too.  That's not a bad thing.  I'm always amazed at how scared most people are of change... change is normal, and its constant.

So, will I change a submissive... you betcha.  She'll probably change me some too.  Hopefully it'll be improvements, sometimes not though... that's just life.  Its a dirty job (now there's an episode of Dirty Jobs you won't see.)



CuriousLord -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:55:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things. 


Why did you chose to lead your response with this line?  Not to agree nor disagree, but I'm curious as to how it connects.



losttreasure -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 6:59:25 AM)

My concern would be, if a dominant was one who found the challenge of changing a submissive to be the thrilling part, what happens when all is said and done?  Is it time to move on to the next challenge... a new submissive to change?



puella -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:00:44 AM)

I wish I had more to offer you than that Susan.  I am still trying to grapple with issues like...Is it a good idea, given the way I love and the intensity which is intrinsic within myself to actually submit, especially given the fact that there are no holds barred and that thing which many crave (intensity and commitment to surrender)  can be the very things which end up working against you, and embittering the one you give them to?

It's a tricky dance to be sure.  The idea that someone wants to make you the 'better' you, the souped up, most perfect, most enviable and flawlessly exquisite you (for them) does still give me pause.  What happens if you can not be upgraded to a deluxe model, and worse yet, what if that upgrade process means stripping out vital parts of what you once used as markers to identify yourself? 

I do not see anything at all wrong with growing together and wanting to be a better person, even being inspired to be a better person by your partner/owner.  My parents (vanilla) both felt that way about each other, and I think it was because each of them loved the essential person so very much, and didn't really need them to change at all, that their growing into two better people, together, made them the ideally suited people who were in love with each other, thick or thin, thickening middle, balding head, wrinkled or not, every day they had together.

There is a metaphor used in German poetry of the linden tree. Two linden trees often grow off of the same root, or their roots entwine and become a giant mass of root and though the trees are very distinct, separately, their inner bits start to change and grow to show similar traits and often times more perfect foliage, bark, etc etc, due to that combining.  It is the metaphor applied to eternal and most perfect love.. the twining of the roots to make two trees more beautiful but absolutely essential to each other.

It can happen, I have seen it with my parents, it is seen in nature... maybe we are not all linden's however?  I don't know.. it's certainly something that aches when you recognize it and can not manage to be it.

Perhaps this rain is just bringing out the gloom in me, I am sorry if I am causing you more anxiousness.

Jen



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:01:12 AM)

Padriag: I am attracted to the whole "lump of clay" idea, myself, too. Why? Mostly because I am pretty submissive, and do consider myself a "giver", and heck - let's face it - it can be flattering and affirming to receive that attention from someone.

puella: I very much appreciate your comments, as I know you grappled with this in a stark way. I think it is very much a pertinent question for submissives to contemplate, and be aware of. I think time will help, I do realize most Dominants are not this "rabid" re: Their desire to change someone from the ground up, so to speak.

The part that scares me, though, is that sometimes I don't really mind this idea at all, and if I completely trust someone, it doesn't, at the time, seem much of a "deal" to me. I think maybe that person in my past was just way the wrong person for me (in fact, I know it). But anyway, thanks for listening. 

I gotta pay attention to my own needs, too, and know myself (and pretty much, I trust I do, most of the time. Still, there always seems to be (for me) that "little question" re: Will it "turn on me", or "go bad" in some way? I guess that is what "risk" is in some ways, though. I'll (eventually) do better w/this area (am working on it, for sure). Thanks for the considered (as usual) response.

losttreasure: Yours is an excellent question, indeed, IMO.

And anyone else who has commented.Thanks.

- Susan



Mercnbeth -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:02:19 AM)

quote:

And - because I really truly do "want to be a good submissive", I find that line can be sometimes hard for me personally to draw.

Susan,
Going into a relationship we all have "drawn lines". Erasing those lines is what a relationship is all about. Ideally you get to a point where the line defining the needs of the dom and the desires of the sub are invisible. The idea extends from the most basic physical sensation, a dom enjoys flogging and a sub enjoys the sensation; to mental/emotional dynamic of a Dom/sub 'daddy' dynamic. Once there is a meshing of compatible desires there is no line.

quote:

Especially since the essence of a D/s relationship is "dominance and submission" and IK want to "do a good job" in a relationship (I really do.)
I'll pick on the words you used and not you. "Good job"; connotes work. I'm of the opinion that if a relationship is work, or takes work, it won't work. If it is a chore to adapt or conform to another's desire, regardless of which side of the flogger you are on, eventually you'll get to the end of your energy and commitment and need a vacation. Often there are threads regarding needing a vacation from service or needing time off. The concept of "work" explains the reason it is needed. Do you ever need "time off" from having a great time or doing what you want to do all the time?
quote:

I know people will maybe claim that it (going overboard on this, possibly) "can't happen unless you want it to happen", etc - Possibly that's true -, but that doesn't really answer the question, and it can be a hard line to draw sometimes, IMO.
I don't think you are going "overboard" at all. In fact I think you are taking the correct approach. The process of complete exposure and asking "what if..." regarding the contemplated relationship is critical to avoiding negative surprises down the line. One of the best reasons for negotiating and writing out a 'contract' is that the process exposes more of yourself than general conversation. Writing things out generates more conversation. It exposes the lines.

The reality is there aren't any straight lines. They resemble three dimensional puzzle pieces. Similarly to constructing a puzzle, if you cheat and shave off parts ultimately the pieces really don't match and you end up ugly result. Finding the puzzle piece that fits perfectly into another can be a long and drawn out process but it can and should be, fun.

In answer to your OP, I never had a desire to change anything about the person I met. I never wanted to "make them" do anything. Conversely I refused to be change or compromise in my core self in order to be with another. There were many failures to fit the pieces. However, in retrospect, I can't recall any 'attempt to fit' as anything other than enjoyable.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:07:30 AM)

ITS a combination of both.subs /slaves are changed to my way of thinking if they need be,after all this is the reason they are here to serve US in the manner we wish.IN order for them to do this sometimes a changed or an " attitude adjustment" is called for.Many do it different ways but that the way we do it here at the CIRCLE C...BOUNTY



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:12:14 AM)

WOW a sadistic daddy dom...I thought I was the only one on the planet...BOUNTY



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:13:14 AM)

Mercnbeth: You are right about the lines disapearing in a healthy, compatible relatonship. Thanks for that reminder (it was needed, and you two are very happy, so it is nice to be remnded it is very much possible). And the rest, too. Yes, my goal is certainly to be in a relationship where I want to give myself fully, and be helpful and of value to the other (else why bother?) I just need to think about all of this...thanks, everyone.


BOUNTY: I think the idea of a Sadistic Daddy Dom is interesting (at least to me). I know it may sound a wee bit weird to some, but IMO, it can really rock.

- Susan



spanklette -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:16:27 AM)

My Daddy is sadistic...so, I know from experience...a sadistic Daddy Dom can be an inspiring thing to see.[:D]



Padriag -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:38:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Padriag: I am attracted to the whole "lump of clay" idea, myself, too. Why? Mostly because I am pretty submissive, and do consider myself a "giver", and heck - let's face it - it can be flattering and affirming to receive that attention from someone.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with that.  It is true that in the wrong hands, it could end in disaster.  But it is equally true that in the right hands it could end wonderfully.  Personally, I like someone open to change, and open to whatever I have in store for them.  For me as a dominant, its a great feeling to know that she trusts me enough to accept any change I might effect on her.  That change might be as simple as improving her sleep habits, to as complex as teaching her whole new skill sets (I've got this dream of an all girl constructiong crew.... kidding [;)] ).  In some cases it means changing some negative aspects of her self image to positive ones.  The thing I suggest submissives watch for is not whether the dominant wants to change them... but whether those changes are intended to be constructive rather than destructive.



TigressFL -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 7:56:44 AM)

I would love to not have to change them AT ALL!!! I do not find my kicks in changing someone, I find a lot of work lol It is enough work to simply teach them how to serve me properly. All that being said, if changes need to be made they will be. If there are more changes to be made than positives then I am not going to take them on to begin with. I am not a masochist. lol

Tigress~FL



puella -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:04:52 AM)

Hello Padriag,

I so often agree with what you say, and do so now, mostly.  [;)]

Even with the best of intentions, sometimes 'changing' a person can do damage.  You do not have to have evil intents to have bad things happen.



happypervert -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:09:12 AM)

[this was a not so fast reply]

If I think at the outset that a girl needs major changes to suit me, then that eliminates her from consideration; it isn't my kink, and I'm too lazy to bother. However, one of the most rewarding experiences I've had in a relationship was with a girl who had some issues with a negative self image, and I was able to help her overcome them. In that case, I was helping her make the changes that she wanted by having a few ideas and then motivating the discipline so she'd do what was necessary, so I found that rewarding because it made a positive impact on her life instead of simply changing her for my own gratification.

I suppose there is a bit of White Knight in that; it isn't something I'd seek out, but I'll  enjoy helping with such issues in someone who has already caught my interest and who is already motivated to improve.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:19:52 AM)

Puella,

There is a VAST difference between taking a rough diamond and cutting some facets to let the inner beauty shine through which to me is a good thing.  As opposed to picking up a woman who sees herself as a fat worthless pig (at least on some level) and man "buying" her cheaply and then telling her he will only love/care for her IF she stops being the fat worthless pig he bought cheap.

Puella, I am not even sure that you can see the difference between those two concepts but rest assured others can.



Padriag -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:23:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Hello Padriag,

I so often agree with what you say, and do so now, mostly.  [;)]

Even with the best of intentions, sometimes 'changing' a person can do damage.  You do not have to have evil intents to have bad things happen.

True... as the old saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  But on the other hand, good intentions is an indication that at least they have the right goals, even if their methods are lacking.  Bad intentions rarely do good.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:27:05 AM)

MICHAEL there is some to what you have to say.along theses lines some think they are so worthless and so must low self esteem that they will settle for any thing just to become owned and in the lifestyle..as always just the views of this ol" master...bounty



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:29:06 AM)

Thanks for al of the comments. I agree about the difference between constructive and destructive changes being induced in a submissive. With a Sadist,it can, IMO sometimes be hard to tell which is which (although if the trust is really there, one has to believe, and they will sometimes even reassure you that they would never decimate you, I believe that, mostly, I think, Maybe, depends on who it would be, of course).

I guess (and someone please tell me what you think of this idea) that what I may be ultmatley bothered with, is the idea that I am caring about, or worried about, is the thought that I may be "deeper in" than the person I am with - that my whole presence isn't somehow as important to them in their life, as they are on some level, to me. Is this weird of me?

This seems though, to conflict w/parts of the D/s nature of relationships, too. Dependent - submissive vs. Dominant. Does it conflict? And also to conflict w/the idea of being "vulnerable" and "open enough" to be a "good submissive." 

I know most Dominants really do care, but it seems sometimes they aren't necessarily going to show it as much. Whether this is due to being a guy, or wanting to appear macho", or implementing their brand of "dominance" - I don't think it is intentional, or "mean", it just can be what happens, sometimes, IMO.

Not to ignore the Dommes (and maybe the same principe is in operation there, too, I dunno).

And I am hardly a "stalker" type of submissive, and am not trying to generalize un-necessarily. But it does seem to happen, sometimes.

Maybe I am just a totally _ucked up Switch, I dunno (I don't really mean that last remark. But I am wondering about this idea).

- Susan  



SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:30:49 AM)

Okay, I got the analogy, two actually

One is about swingers since that won't piss anyone off.  Most swingers one partner is into it and the other puts up with it in order to not lose the other.  To me that is "bad".  What one rarely sees and I think is actually kind of beautiful is both want to explore, both want the best for the other and both are thinking about not just their needs but their partners.  To me, former is a bad "change" into a swinger, the second is a "good" change for them.

The other is that getting a cheap old fat submissive as a "fixer upper" because you are not manly/domly enough to get a submissive as hot as say Puella, with the idea that you are going to "fix her up" into the hotty you couldn't get otherwise is fucked up shit.  It is common as hell but just fucking wrong. 

Real men (yes I said real) only go after the women they crave and whatever changes they make are to refine not create the woman they want.  That refinement might be pretty major but the distinction, while subtle, is vast.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 8:33:27 AM)

Thanks for that, SimplyMichael. The clarification is important, because I think it happens, probably more than occasionally, too. I can understand why, but it isn't really very nice, bottom-line, to do to someone, IMO.

- Susan



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