RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 12:56:09 PM)

Absolutely completely fabulous post!

quote:

  How much is it due to a submissive being sure she wants a dominant, making the considered choice to submit to him and then, when a difficult situation comes up she finds herself doubting his ability to "know" what is best for her, or even setting her aside, the relationship?  At some point, couldn't the question become:  If you always think you know the best way to dominate you, then what do you need me or any other dominant for other than in a "service" oriented way


The trick for poor submissives is to know when they have found someone worth letting go this much.  This same issues is even worse for those submissives who feel a dominant must "take" them and "force" the submission out of them.  For an ethical dominant, at some point it becomes both tiresome and a question of morality if one is always having to force issues.  I love proving it and the occasional test  can be hot for both of us, but if I wanted to be tested me constantly I would marry a shrew.  Either you see me as YOUR dominant or you don't, either get on your knees or shake hands and part ways.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 12:56:38 PM)

Creative: I can't use my ex-Dom as an example, because toward the latter end of it, the relationship was just too wierd (physical abuse, non-consensual, and other things), and not one I'd use as any good example - so I will leave this Q to others. But in general, I can say I didn't get many complaints about it (but have probably done it, in fact I know I have).

I agree there appear to be subs who seem ready to submit to any yahoo out there (I have sufferred from "sub frenzy"). I thought I was being rational, because I really did know (pretty well, like for years) my ex-Dom before any D/s relationship took place. He appeared pretty sane, too, to me (and I consider myself relatively emotionally healthy, although I am sure it's a matter of opinion). But this is indeed a good point, and food for thought.

But not well enough, looking back. I should have questioned him when he asked me to sign off CM, 3 days into our "renewed" relationship (which I think was due to jealousy, regardless of me not seeing anyone else, or even really e-mailing them, at the time). I went along with it, it didn't seem a great hardship. And I trusted him, and at the time, it seemed reasonable, and certainly no "deal breaker".

We had several very satisfying months, and then, he ended up trying to throw me backwards, down a flight of stairs, and I left him after that. He did it because he thought I was flirting w/someone at a gathering (and I didn't even know the person in question, really, although we were exchanging phone numbers).My ex-Dom and I had both agreed to be Poly, and he was in fact actively Poly at that time, himself (but I don't want to rehash all that). Plus, most Doms aren't like that. I know they're not.  

Nobody really, in my case, had to ever "force" much out of me much (if at all -although I do see your point). I agree with SimplyMichael that knowing who is worth one's time is key. Also, this is probably off-track, but this stuff definitely happens (or can) in "vanilla" relationships, as well (but hasn't, to me. In fact, I do not come from any type of "abusive" background. Which may be one reason I so quickly left my ex-Dom, when it happened. But this is not the case in most relationships, is my guess. Regardless, I am working to "get over it", I am.

Some people don't have this kind of thing in thier life, maybe ( but they do have other stuff that is just as weird, though, from what I've observed, and with which they find a way do deal). I apparently go for months when I barely think about it. Then for some reason, it rears its ugly head again.

Anyway, thanks for reading the thread, and the wise comments. I am taking it all in, I really am, and it is appreciated.
- Susan



agirl -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 1:08:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

On a very basic level, I think that most dominants start with the basic concept of "I will be flexible and I will listen and, if I am smart, most things I try to get you to do will have elements of both of us reflected in the dominance...but I will not be topped from the bottom."  In many situations that can occur in D/s and/or in BDSM play, how much of the struggle occurs because of a submissive not wanting her "inner core personality" changed and how much is due to a submissive feeling that the dominant's way is not right and she knows a better way for the dominant to get her to do what the dominant wants and he's not doing it that way?  How often does it occur that it is not the core personality that he is attempting to change but rather a way of behavior and wants it done this way and she does not agree and so, cites him for trying to change her personality, her "inner core"?  How much is it due to a submissive being sure she wants a dominant, making the considered choice to submit to him and then, when a difficult situation comes up she finds herself doubting his ability to "know" what is best for her, or even setting her aside, the relationship?  At some point, couldn't the question become:  If you always think you know the best way to dominate you, then what do you need me or any other dominant for other than in a "service" oriented way of dominance in which you tell the dominant "I want to get to Point B from Point A.  I want you to direct me how to get there but I want you to direct me in the way I tell you...?



Exactly. If I want to get somewhere and am asking M for direction, I'd better be prepared to go whatever route he plans, and I know from long experience that I do NOT always enjoy the route but I always get there. Once he's in the driving seat, by invitation, there is NO going back and no abandoning the journey. He doesn't mess about.

I'm careful about my choice of destination these days. I'd better be certain that I want to go there because by hook or by crook, that's where I end up.

agirl





CreativeDominant -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 5:27:30 PM)

Thanks Michael!  [:)]



Hrafnkel -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 10:28:30 PM)

I personally find the idea of changing a submissives personality not only highly distasteful.but reaching into those areas that made me quit D/s until... well, until my present slave found me.

I thrive on the reactions of the submissive. If I have them perform an act that arouses them, angers them, surprises them, disghusts them, bores them... then that is part of the thrill of power for me. I want to unveil that reaction, and make it has hard for her to hide it from me as possible. Asking a girl to 'do whatever and like it' is really asking for a girl to decieve you, in my opinion. My power trip comes from seeing this intelligent, passionate creature on her knees offering up her will and personality to me. If you're going to toss away the personality, wouldn't a rubber doll serve better? 



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 12:31:17 AM)

Hrafnkel: Thanks for the very astute reply. I think so, too. With the exception of expecting someone to be basically courteous and civil, I can't imagine anyone trying to dictate another's emotions. Wouldn't having to do that, rather be an indication that hadn't in fact, "Mastered" the other all that well?

- Susan



DarkDreams123 -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 1:12:40 AM)

Hi Susan,

Very interesting post.

I have been very patient reading all the way to the end (5 pages at this time). I think you have been given some very good advice from many quarters.

All I have to say to you Susan is, just trust your instincts. I know that I am pretty new to this site, but I have read enough of your postings to know that you have a pretty good head on your shoulders. I think you are beginning to over analyze.

There is no easy answer to your question (I think you really know that). No one can draw that line for you between what is acceptable for your Dominant to change in you and what is unacceptable. In my opinion, no one (submissives or not) can really give up the responsibility for their own wellbeing. Who else but you can decide what is good for you and what isn't.

Well, thanks to you I am getting to bed much later than I should (and I'm probably not the only one)!

-DarkDreams



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 1:17:53 AM)

Thanks for the reply, DarkDreams123

- Susan



greeneyes1962 -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 1:22:41 AM)

I finally at this time in my life, really and truly like myself the way I am. My Master also really likes me for who I really am. It is a really good feeling to be accepted and loved  for yourself, not what someone envisions you should be

If He wanted to try and change the basic person I am, we would not be compatible. I am past trying to be someone else.



FukinTroll -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 1:27:41 AM)

Damn it susan, why can't you just be happy for me that I want you for your body. Do you have to keep flaunting that yummy brain at me too?
 
*grumbles*
 
Friggin sado subs.

Slurp!



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 1:35:20 AM)

HUGs to you Fukin Troll! (you are my favorite Troll, 'ya know). [:)]

greeneyes1962: Now that you mention it, I think it may be partly related to my age. I just find the whole idea of twisting into a pretzel and trying to totally be somene I am not, to please someone, to be wearing these days. In my twenties (many moons ago), I actually did do this more than once, back then, and didn't really mind as much. In fact, it was even kind of a fun "challenge," sometimes. Now, though, the idea just makes me tired.

- Susan



greeneyes1962 -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 12:44:11 PM)

For me, I don't think it's my age, although that may be a part of it. Most of my life I have been overly concerned with what others thought about what I did, and how i behaved.

Only after going through therapy, have i come to accept that i can live my life the way i want, without seeking others' approval.

I am happier these days just being myself than i ever was in the past.



justinedoll -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 12:58:39 PM)

Dear SusanofO
very nice topic. Since i started bdsm i was sure the way of being happy is a compromise. But after i meet some people who used to think diffirent way.
People or just fit and are interested in each other or not. After ther can go closer and closer and explore what they like. I know some sub girls who love to be changed, created and told almost everything and i think there is some doms who like it. But some people look other things in bdsm,.just relationship or erotic fun, keeping themselves as they were on beginning. But it must be known.



Sinergy -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 3:05:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things.  I LOVE changing people, that is why I am a daddy.  I have to be careful that I don't pick someone who needs TO much nurturing but I do love it. 

Nothing like taking a woman out and getting her a whole new hairstyle, hair color, and having a whole new makeups style forced upon her.   That is short term.  I was mentored by a domme who loved taking lesbians and teaching them to crave cock and cum or to love anal.  One of only two women who have ever evoked submissive tendencies from me, she was truly amazing.

I would ONLY do that in a committed long term relationship but I hope that anyone I am with comes out different at the end, a better person but one shaped a bit by and for me. 


I have to agree with this.

I posted elsewhere about different approaches to being a Dominant; some like to cut the tree into an intricate Bonsai, others want to plant a forest and let it go riot.  I am one of the latter.  While I can appreciate the beauty of a well-pruned Bonsai, part of my personality enjoys the surprise of seeing something I have nurtured grow into what it needs to be.

I dont feel I am so filled with hubris that I know down to the micromanagerial level what she needs to be.

This is why I dont micromanage the people I am with.  I indicate what I want them to do, I will even assist them in doing it (provided they dont demand I make it happen) if they ask me nicely.  On the other hand, if I have to spend too much of my life trying to make the person I am with take care of things in her life, I start to question how suited we are for each other. 

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



slaveish -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 3:38:21 PM)

Oohhhhhhhh, this question gives me the ~shivers~, Susan, and delightful ones at that.

I hope I can articulate this.

There was an initial attraction and compatibility between Master and me. As we talked more, we liked each other more. He is, however, the Master. There are things about me that he wants to change and things he doesn't want to change. He wants me to remain the same person with the same personality but ... ~ohhhhhhhhhhhh shiver shiver~ ... there was a time he told me that he was going to "break me down" (and he did a pantomime with his hands like he was breaking a stick, starting at his chest and continuing the motion again and again down to about his hips) so as to make me a better person.

That did not mean he was not pleased with me as a person. He is making me a better person inside, a better slave to him, and more secure in myself. His methods are his own and I do not always understand them (nor do I need to question him, he reminds me) but his Mastering feels ~right~ to me. I do not feel less because he is remaking me - he does not make me feel like I am not enough. He makes me feel like I can be anything and do anything. He makes me feel ~strong~ ... and he also makes me feel safe to be vulnerable.

He wants to control me, to remake me, to rebuild me, to change me in certain ways. It's who he is and it's what he does. The Master's key lies in how his rebuilding makes the sub or slave feel when she is alone and no one else is looking.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/13/2007 7:16:54 PM)

Since everyone seems to be giving everyone else a reach around I will continue in that vein...

Sinergy,

I really like this sentiment:
quote:

  I indicate what I want them to do, I will even assist them in doing it (provided they dont demand I make it happen) if they ask me nicely. 


Partly because I have worked hard to overcome this one and still at times find myself falling victim to it:

quote:

   if I have to spend too much of my life trying to make the person I am with take care of things in her life, I start to question how suited we are for each other. 




ExSteelAgain -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/14/2007 3:36:48 AM)

Tis a great thread with all those I like to read contributing and Susan doing a great job of moderating responses to her OP. Most of us have said we don’t try to micromanage or to change the personality of a slave. I mentioned earlier I like to inspire and others have said they have similar concepts.

Coming back to the thread late, I’ll try to offer a nuts and bolts description of what I do when something she does bothers me. I present information and let her come to her own decision about a matter. The presentation of information may be a give and take discussion where I may even change my views. It is a real attempt to make factual information available and the info has to be able to withstand questions.

This is not me giving her an order based on my opinions and preferences because that concept leaves little to talk about. If she absorbs the facts, comes to her own realization and sees a need for a change, it comes from within her and will be much more likely to stick.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/14/2007 4:07:35 AM)

Thanks for all of the replies, people.  It has given me much food for thought.

Ex-Steel: I think I like that kind of democratic dominance you jusr described, and I think it probably works better on and for me, due to my personality. I remember reading a long time ago, some article on a bdsm site about 3 "kinds" or "methods" of Dominance. One was  "Authoritarian"  - really the "my way or the highway" school of thought (and while I admit all dominance is probably that, to a degree, that "method" is more "upfront" about it, as far as that goes.

Then one was the "Egalitarian" dominance school, which was more like what you just described, where a Dominant "works together" w/ a submissive, to get what he needs from her, and sort of propel her development forward, via disucssion and more "give and take".    

I forget what the third brand of Dominance was called, but there was one. None were thought of as "better" than another - just different ideas working for people, depending on how they want to work it out. It was kind of an interesting article. Maybe I can find it somewhere (I can't remember right now, but I think it was at the "Steel Door" website)...anyway, folks - thanks for the replies.

- Susan



WilliamWizer -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/14/2007 4:58:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I forget what the third brand of Dominance was called, but there was one. None were thought of as "better" than another - just different ideas working for people, depending on how they want to work it out. It was kind of an interesting article. Maybe I can find it somewhere (I can't remember right now, but I think it was at the "Steel Door" website)...anyway, folks - thanks for the replies.

- Susan


can you tell us please what was that third brand? I understand you don't remember the name but do you remember in what was based or something like that? thank you.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/14/2007 5:56:27 AM)

I think they were listed as: Egalitarian, Authoritarian, and Democratic (but to be honest, I can't quite remember what the difference was as far as "Egalitarian" and "Democratic", it was a long time ago that I read it (but I'll try to find it, if it is still on that site, or you can, too. It is SteelDoor.com, I think, I'll have to check). Or maybe I'd Google "methods of dominance" or somethi,g, and see what pops up...

I do think there are differences in how Masters (and Mistresses) probably tend to dominate a submissive, based on their own personalities, and the submissive's, and also what they want the relationship to become, and how they want to experience it.

- Susan



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