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So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 9:02:40 AM

kittinSol

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"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)

Replace the oh-so-last-century 'capitalism' with the modern day 'corporations' and you're on to something. I'm scared. And I can't find anything else than cookery books and slimming guides at Barnes & Noble.

*help?* meeeowwww

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/4/2007 9:29:04 AM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 9:26:52 AM

meatcleaver

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Well globalisation means there are less people in the world going to bed hungry but its threatening the people's sense of certainty in the west because there appears to be a belief that the poor will get rich at their expense which is not necessarily the case. I can't say I believe in globalisation but its going to happen because it is in the interests of the people who buy yhr politicians so as soon as ordinary people wake up and realize they need to organize across borders rather than hide behind the false barriers of national borders the better.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 9:28:16 AM

kittinSol

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You have made a very good point, and therefore I shall edit my initial post (not that it matters, really, but for precision's sake, you understand).

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 9:47:50 AM

farglebargle

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kittinSol)

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:02:42 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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I believe that there is good in all people, and that everyone possesses intellect and is reasonable.

Yes, I am frequently disappointed.

E

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:10:30 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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maybe yes- maybe no. a corporation exists strickly to make monetary profit for its share holders. It never dies, and does not go to jail. Its unchecked power- makes them a sort of governance. Or a king whom the serfs answer to.

If more cash could be made selliing oil to China, the oil companies would do so. They hold no allegieence to any flag, to any peoples. only the almighty dollar.

Lifting people out of poverty is a noble goal....however- working sweat shops under armed guards- with child labor is hardly a step up.

Big money can shop the global market for its tools needed to function. However if a human does this- it is often illegal. As it doesnt please the king. Buying rxs from overseas is a good example. Surely it isnt "safe"=blah blah blahh.

The race to the bottem- skirts environmental laws- labor laws- any way to extract gold from the teeth of halocaust victems.

Some corporations wield more power then some goverments.

I may seem to be hard on this stance- but consider the rise in CEO salaries. Such at the expense of the average joe/jane.

If in 2007, CEOS were paid per a formula- say 67 times the rate of its lowest paid worker then per haps it all would wash. But the gap has spread over the past 20 years.

Consider also- that the very mega wealthy are seldom photgraphed.

The planets resources are here to eploit - as our its inhabnitants. As the public or larger good- is sold out to big monied interests.

Greed is nothing new. History repeats- hence the phraze "railroaded".

A clerks error elevated the corporate entity to have "rights"- so here we are subject to the grid.

Every day- the idiot box fills our zomby minds with nonsense. We let this into out home, into our life. We even pay for this "service". This mechanism of social control keeps the masses at bay. One rung below the peasants shall revolt mode.

The names and faces change. But it is still the same carnival.

It is hard to believe- that we come to this point in history so fast.

It would be funny if it wasnt such a tragedy.

A good start- how about corporate charters- that expire- and must be "renewed". You seldom ever hear of a corporation loosing its charter.

A human can not by law enslave another human. But a corporation can. and has.

(in reply to farglebargle)

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:37:23 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Capitalism?
Ok, you have the choice of living in two countries.
Those choices are:
1. S. Korea
2. N. Korea
Which one do you pick?
Capitalism has run amok with all these phoney "free trade" deals and Bush doing everything for Big Business and nothing for The People.
Capitalism is good but when you mix in Trade Deals it screws it up.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:38:07 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)

This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.

(in reply to kittinSol)

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:50:14 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes)

This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.

Correct, and it is also responsable for 100% of poverty reduction.
But, the direction it is going in now is the wrong direction.
These "Trade Agreements" are actually "Treaties" and should require a 2/3 vote in the Senate!
They meet all five criteria in the State Depts' requirements for "Treaties."
So NAFTA and CAFTA are Illegal!

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 9

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 10:54:45 AM

kittinSol

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Yawn yawn and triple-yawn. Sorry, heard it all before.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 11:11:49 AM

seeksfemslave

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Well I for one dont agree with the quote be it referring to capitalism or corporatism. Many corporations have brought about tremendous improvements for many many people.

A lot of the wicked skullduggery as I understand it took place as the large corporations were being developed in the 19th century. Oil , Steel and the Railways in particular.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 11

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 11:14:55 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.

Wrong. Capitalism has a human face in the west because ordinary people organized and refused to be exploited. What we now have in the west is capitalism tempered with socialism. If you want to know what 'real capitalism' is like, read Dickens or Zola or better still, take a sabatical in a far east sweat shop where you don't know if you will still have your two hands at the end of the week. Keynes knew exactly what he was saying.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/4/2007 11:15:13 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 11:29:13 AM

seeksfemslave

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Far East sweatshops exist surely under basically Fascist regimes where workers are simply not allowed to organise. As was the case in both Europe and the USA in the 19th century. NO?

Capitalistic free enterprise for all its faults is not intrinsically opposed to workers rights. It is not likely to be enthusiastic about them either. Small businesses are likely to exploit the work force just as badly if not more so than large corporations.

Socialism means state centred control/direction of the commanding economic heights of a society Workers rights may or may not follow.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/4/2007 11:30:59 AM >

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 12:29:42 PM

kittinSol

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Does nobody understand that corporate culture is self-interested? Its intention is to constrict the freedom of the individual, not to promote it!!! It is profit which is of the essence here:.

The increasing autonomy and strength of corporations is actually shaping the policies of entire 'nation-states'. Look at the USA and at the power of the lobbyists! Democracy has never been a bigger sham than it is today (and fuck knows it wasn't ever the panacea to humanities' ills).

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 12:35:25 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes.

Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons.

Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative.

Wrong. Capitalism has a human face in the west because ordinary people organized and refused to be exploited. What we now have in the west is capitalism tempered with socialism. If you want to know what 'real capitalism' is like, read Dickens or Zola or better still, take a sabatical in a far east sweat shop where you don't know if you will still have your two hands at the end of the week. Keynes knew exactly what he was saying.

Dickens or Zola would maintain my point. If sweatshops are economically viable, they'll progress and continue. If they're not, they won't.

I didn't say capitalism was pretty nor kind. I said it was benificial to the collective society.

If you care to argue this, I'd ask you make your case clearly instead of just saying, "Wrong."

And, yes, we don't have a perfect capitalism- at least, not in the elementary sense. Ours is kinder to most without a major sacarfice.
Most things find perfection in balance.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 15

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 12:51:24 PM

NorthernGent

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I believe:

In community.

In charity - including not killing people in other countries.

In equal opportunity - people are like plants, give them opportunities and they'll bloom.

In free will and self-determination within the boundaries of responsiblity to society.

In the human spirit needing love, loyalty, respect, friendship.

In education that amounts to more than serving people up for a life of servitude to the corporate system and wider establishment.

In Northern England.

In hard work, but within the parameters of a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

The political system is simply a tool to aid the above, for me. The old Labour Party were as close as I've seen.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/4/2007 12:52:36 PM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:15:27 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Dickens or Zola would maintain my point. If sweatshops are economically viable, they'll progress and continue. If they're not, they won't.

I didn't say capitalism was pretty nor kind. I said it was benificial to the collective society.

If you think capitalism is progressive, give up all the reforms and rights that have been won through the blood and bravery of others so you can live a decent life. You will then see how human capitalism is. Capitalist corporations act like psychopaths, their raison d'etre is profit and the human dignity of individuals isn't considered unless there are outside forces working on it. Should you care to read the history of the industrial revolution and the 19th century you will see capitalism fought to stop ordinary people having rights of any kind. One of the reasons slavery failed was because it was cheaper for capitalists to employ wage slaves than keeping slaves themselves.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 17

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:23:52 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Dickens or Zola would maintain my point. If sweatshops are economically viable, they'll progress and continue. If they're not, they won't.

I didn't say capitalism was pretty nor kind. I said it was benificial to the collective society.

If you think capitalism is progressive, give up all the reforms and rights that have been won through the blood and bravery of others so you can live a decent life. You will then see how human capitalism is. Capitalist corporations act like psychopaths, their raison d'etre is profit and the human dignity of individuals isn't considered unless there are outside forces working on it. Should you care to read the history of the industrial revolution and the 19th century you will see capitalism fought to stop ordinary people having rights of any kind. One of the reasons slavery failed was because it was cheaper for capitalists to employ wage slaves than keeping slaves themselves.

The unquoted part of my post, as you seem to have neglected it:

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If you care to argue this, I'd ask you make your case clearly instead of just saying, "Wrong."

And, yes, we don't have a perfect capitalism- at least, not in the elementary sense. Ours is kinder to most without a major sacarfice.
Most things find perfection in balance.

Note that I didn't say capitalism was human- you're trying to put words into my mouth.
Note that I didn't say I wanted to live in a capitalist society- you're assuming.
Note that I asked you to make logical points- not melodrama of the history of people fighting against capitalist interests.
Note that I said, "Most things find perfection in balance."

I would advise you to reread my posts before commenting again. You seem to be trying to attack me as an advocate of pure and unfettered capitalism. You are mistaken. Reconsider.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 18

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:27:45 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,\.......

Even for the conceived, developing human unborn farglebargle?

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 5/4/2007 1:28:55 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: So what do YOU believe in? - 5/4/2007 1:45:58 PM

kittinSol

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NorthernGent, I share many of your beliefs. Problem is, I no longer believe in any political system. Governments were always fickle, but now they are licking the boots of the CEOs. They've become the sluts of the economy, running errands for the pension funds and their (surprise, they're invisible!) investors.

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