RE: Masterhood (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:28:15 PM)

In response to Kalbar:
You seem to have a pretty good idea of your own views and understanding.  It's commendable, particularly if you have, as you have said, less than an extensive timeline of experience in this lifestyle.  I would go further to say that I agree with many of your views on the subject.



In general:
I've noticed a good bit of hostility from some Doms and subs over the mechanisms of 24/7 and TPE- sort of the same hostility I've encountered from vanilla individuals, only.. less disgusted and more angry?  Anyone else notice this sentiment at times?
(I don't feel it's common, just some have had it.)



Kalbar -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:31:37 PM)

A mere 6 years of experience.
Thanks for the commendation. :)




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:31:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalbar
There is no point where she is allowed to become that loud obnoxious brat other than when she is permitted to have time away from the lifestyle (i.e. when she goes out with her vanilla friends or other slaves) and away from anyone that she may dishonour her Master to (i.e. another Master that her Master knows or another gathering of Goreans/BDSMers).

These views are all fascinating to me.  Most slaves I know never are permitted nor desire any time "away from the lifestyle"  They are still slaves with vanilla friends around and behaving in an obnoxious bratty manner among them would be considered as wrong and distasteful as it would be in any other circumstance. 

I'm not sure how well I'd value a master who thought it was ok to act rudely in front of some friends but not others.

quote:

Well there you have it.  Poorly written and more like a spillage of my brain than any kind of thought out literature, but it's the way I feel and the way I understand things in (yes I'll say it again) my less lengthy experience.

I highly enjoyed the rest of your post Kalbar and definitely appreciate you sharing your perspective.  It's very nice to hear how real life dynamics play out so easily and happily sometimes.



CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:35:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalbar

A mere 6 years of experience.
Thanks for the commendation. :)


Six years?  Pft.  No wonder.  That's two years more than me.  I'm not in a place to act like I have more experience.  :P



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:37:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Punishment for disobidience, rewards for continued good service, silly.

But giving reward means you give the slave CREDIT for doing a good job.  Your initial post said only the dom gets credit and responsibility. 

If the slave has NONE of EITHER- then really only the dom can be effectively trained and modified because the slave bears no responsibility whatsoever.

You have to give someone responsibility for their behavior before you can expect them to behave in a certain way.

quote:


Is the slave, then, responsbile for her being able to cook an awesome apple pie?  If she is his property, then this falls to the  Master.  (Though your wording does strike me as a bit.. confused.  It sounds odd, when you use it with my idea.. then again, it sounds odd alone, too, so it's a bit deceptive.)

If the master taught the slave how to cook, then I'd say he has a fair amount of credit for teaching her how to be a good cook.

If he merely orders an apple pie, then he is no more responsible for it than if he went to McDonald's and bought it.  And it would be very odd for me if a master went to a party with a big fabulous cake that the slave had made- without him teaching her or helping her in any way to make it and tell everyone that he is responsible for making that cake and for how good it tastes.

quote:


Are you implying that the offspring are slaves..?

That's what I am asking you.  If the slave never has ANY credit or ANY responsibility for ANYTHING- does that include the formation, birth, and raising of offspring?

quote:

I
That's fine.. just.. that isn't the full blown TPE ascept in it.. I've always considered "Master" to be the highest degree of Dom aspect and "slave" to be the highest degree of sub aspect.

I'd ask what you consider switches but I have a feeling you think they are just player wannabes who aren't much of either.

I get your idea- it's actually very commonly shared in the community.  I just happen to think it's not really how it works, and certainly your notion that a slave never has any credit or any responsibility in the relationship or their entire life really has a lot of holes- only a few main ones I've pointed out here.



Kalbar -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:37:03 PM)

Well time away from such a strict regime is something that I consider to be invaluable.  I know from past experience that the kind of TPE I expect can be very demanding and that time to just be with friends is something that many slaves would need.

Having said that, perhaps I shouldn't have given the impression that bratty behaviour is tolerable.  Perhaps I should have said that time can be given where a slave can just have fun with other women and let her hair down a tad.

I would never condone a slave of mine going out to the pub and transforming into a rude and obnoxious bitch for instance.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:40:31 PM)

quote:

Well time away from such a strict regime is something that I consider to be invaluable

I don't consider it a strict regime.  Most long term Ms relationships I know act and appear just like any vanilla relationship 90% of the time.

quote:

Perhaps I should have said that time can be given where a slave can just have fun with other women and let her hair down a tad.

I guess I'm weird- I don't see why slavery can't be fun and should be the epitome of letting ones hair down and being true to yourself.

Life brings its own need for formality at times and that's unavoidable in most cases, but I dislike people trapping themselves into a life they want and choose only to create so many rules and boxes that it loses all the fun and enjoyment.



Kalbar -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:47:47 PM)

Oh I think I can understand what you mean.  I wouldn't take on a woman who didn't consider an M/s relationship to be her calling.  And if a slave I had accepted ownership of, at any point in time, told me she was growing tired of it, I'd release her immediately.  I understand and agree that a woman who has offered herself up as property needs to be a woman who takes great pleasure and pride in being permitted to serve.  But some time away from that (especially for women who are new to the scene) can, in my opinion, do wonders for a girl.  Absence makes the heart grow fonder? :P

Having said all of that, there are certain women within the lifestyle who have a plethora of issues that take can years to resolve.  Some of these issues may be positively secured within the frontal lobe while serving her Master and despite ignoring them or using her service as a tool to combat them, that constant strain can slowly break a girl down.

Edited to add:
I've gotta bugger off to work now.  But I'd like to thank the both of you for a thrilling conversation.



CuriousLord -> RE: Masterhood (5/4/2007 11:53:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Punishment for disobidience, rewards for continued good service, silly.

But giving reward means you give the slave CREDIT for doing a good job.  Your initial post said only the dom gets credit and responsibility. 

If the slave has NONE of EITHER- then really only the dom can be effectively trained and modified because the slave bears no responsibility whatsoever.

You have to give someone responsibility for their behavior before you can expect them to behave in a certain way.


The rewards are a regular part of it.  Treat your slave. ;)  There doesn't have to be a reason.
The punishments are for when a slave fails to act as instructed.  My orginial post said that they were not responsible for the actions so long as they've acted within guidelines and instruction.

You're a smart girl, Lucky- and I'm not trying to sound condescending.  I know you are.  I assure you, my rationale is logical.  If something doesn't make sense at first, I'd ask you to consider it.  Some of my points are subtle- I value intricate things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
quote:


Is the slave, then, responsbile for her being able to cook an awesome apple pie?  If she is his property, then this falls to the  Master.  (Though your wording does strike me as a bit.. confused.  It sounds odd, when you use it with my idea.. then again, it sounds odd alone, too, so it's a bit deceptive.)

If the master taught the slave how to cook, then I'd say he has a fair amount of credit for teaching her how to be a good cook.

If he merely orders an apple pie, then he is no more responsible for it than if he went to McDonald's and bought it.  And it would be very odd for me if a master went to a party with a big fabulous cake that the slave had made- without him teaching her or helping her in any way to make it and tell everyone that he is responsible for making that cake and for how good it tastes.


I can appreciate this seeming odd.  Still, it's what I would claim.  The slave is, more or less, part of the Master.  In giving herself to him, she also gives over her abilities and profenciencies.  (I murdered that spelling, didn't I?  Man I'm beat.)

Personally, I don't really "take pride" in such things, so I wouldn't feel proud for a good apple pie my slave had baked.  I'm sure, though, that my slave would be proud to have brought honor to me.

I'd encourage you to consider that she isn't her own- and she's happy and blissful for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
quote:


Are you implying that the offspring are slaves..?

That's what I am asking you.  If the slave never has ANY credit or ANY responsibility for ANYTHING- does that include the formation, birth, and raising of offspring?


Correct.  They're the Master's responsibility to see to their care.  Now, of course, he can say "You are to care for them", or something like this, and this is a guideline and her responsiblity to him.  But she would care for them as a responsibility to him, not as a responsibility to the children or state.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
quote:


That's fine.. just.. that isn't the full blown TPE ascept in it.. I've always considered "Master" to be the highest degree of Dom aspect and "slave" to be the highest degree of sub aspect.

I'd ask what you consider switches but I have a feeling you think they are just player wannabes who aren't much of either.


Yes, Lucky, I do feel you don't live my life- let's be clear about that.  I believe the sort of aspects and mechanisms you live with are quite different from mine, including basis and effect.  It's also true I feel that your end of the lifestyle isn't as dominant or submissive.  I also understand that such a view may be seen as insulting on condescending.

I would ask you, though, to consider that the way you live is just as good, and, if it works better for you, better with regards to your life and those which you interact with, than a more extreme D/s aspect.

I can honestly tell you I'm proud of my dominance- but I am proud of it because it is who I am, not because dominance is, itself, some virtue to be obtained as a basis for the value of one's life or the relationships within it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I get your idea- it's actually very commonly shared in the community.  I just happen to think it's not really how it works, and certainly your notion that a slave never has any credit or any responsibility in the relationship or their entire life really has a lot of holes- only a few main ones I've pointed out here.


It really does work.  I'm living it.  And it's wonderful.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 12:03:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalbar
But some time away from that (especially for women who are new to the scene) can, in my opinion, do wonders for a girl.  Absence makes the heart grow fonder? :P

I think we're talking about two different things here.

You seem to equate "slavery" to "service/direct attention/focus/work" and that you somehow need a "break" from that in order to stay happy and balanced.

For me, a person is still a slave and under orders even if they are visiting their grandmother and swimming in a pool eating chocolate chip cookies.  They don't need a break from slavery or service- they may need a break from stress, from work, from ritual- but those aren't anything necessarily to do with slavery.

I think we both agree that taking breaks is a good thing for people in general- I just don't see it needing to be a break from slavery or service, just a break from stress and routine.



Kalbar -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 12:11:33 AM)

Ahhh there you hit the nail on the head where I couldn't.
A break from routine.

(not going to work yet, I was an hour early :P)



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 12:13:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
The rewards are a regular part of it.  Treat your slave. ;)  There doesn't have to be a reason.

No, there doesn't have to be.

However, your previous post stated very specifically that the reason for reward would be "for good behavior."  That means you are giving credit to the slave for their good behavior.
quote:


The punishments are for when a slave fails to act as instructed.  My orginial post said that they were not responsible for the actions so long as they've acted within guidelines and instruction.

So slaves ARE responsible for their own actions, but only when they are disobedient?  When they are obedient, they have no responsibility at all?  Again- then there's never a reason to reward a slave.  And if you do something nice for a slave, it's not a "reward" but simply something nice to spoil them with.
quote:


You're a smart girl, Lucky- and I'm not trying to sound condescending. 

Then don't call me girl :)

quote:

something doesn't make sense at first, I'd ask you to consider it.  Some of my points are subtle- I value intricate things.

The idea that you think I didn't consider your points and that I don't get subtlety and intricacy IS condescending, blatantly so actually.

quote:


I can appreciate this seeming odd.  Still, it's what I would claim. 

Claim it all you like, that doesn't mean it makes sense.
quote:


The slave is, more or less, part of the Master.  In giving herself to him, she also gives over her abilities and profenciencies.  (I murdered that spelling, didn't I?  Man I'm beat.)

She certainly gives over her USAGE of those ability and proficiencies to him.  The ability and proficiencies are still hers.  The master cannot say "I am a whiz at calculus" and take credit for acing a calculus class when, in fact, he simply ordered the slave to take the exam for him and it was HER proficiency in calculus which produced the A grade.

quote:

I'm sure, though, that my slave would be proud to have brought honor to me.

Once again, that would be considered "taking credit"- something you said slaves don't do.  If she can't take credit for anything, then there's nothing to be proud over.
quote:


I'd encourage you to consider that she isn't her own- and she's happy and blissful for it.

Being her own isn't the issue here, never has been.  Order her to do whatever you want and do with it whatever you want.

The issue is your claim that a slave can NEVER have ANY credit OR responsibility over ANYTHING.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Correct.  They're the Master's responsibility to see to their care.  Now, of course, he can say "You are to care for them", or something like this, and this is a guideline and her responsiblity to him.  But she would care for them as a responsibility to him, not as a responsibility to the children or state.

So a slave DOES have responsibility now? 

First you said she has NONE- now you say she has responsibility to the master.

quote:

It's also true I feel that your end of the lifestyle isn't as dominant or submissive.  I also understand that such a view may be seen as insulting on condescending.

The fact that you felt the previous comments were not and that this one would be condescending really makes me question whether you understand how your words come across to others.

quote:


I would ask you, though, to consider that the way you live is just as good, and, if it works better for you, better with regards to your life and those which you interact with, than a more extreme D/s aspect.

Do you really want to get into a discussion of extremes with me?  I think you're presuming a lot about me and my past in that sentence- and that's not a good presumption to make.

This conversation has nothing to do with extremes or what's better or worse.  This conversation is and always has been for me about your assertion that slaves NEVER have ANY credit OR responsibility for ANYTHING.



LondonGodFather -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 4:52:41 AM)

Everything I learnt about being a Master was taught to me by Yoda during the time i spent with him in the swamps of Degobah.


oops... wrong forum sorry!



marylynn -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 5:14:01 AM)

~sigh~
Master/Dominant, submissive/slave

first you have to define the "Master" and "Dominant", in your words -
what do they mean -to you-

to be able to give your opinion about what M or D responsibilities are, etc, you *need* to start with ~your own~ definition first.

Then go on to explain by YOUR definition what they mean to you.
we all have different meanings.

like, for example:
slave - no power over own thinking
submissive - power to control his/her thinking

see how easy that was? then nobody can really dispute what you believe.
just my little own submissive opinion :D



MadRabbit -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 7:11:33 AM)

I am with L.A. on this. While the definition you have presented is a very romantic view of the relationship, it doesnt bear much resemblence to reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

.A Master is one who owns (a) slave(s).
 


I agree with this part.

quote:



He and he alone is solely responsible for the actions of his slave, provided his slave is acting within his guidelines and under his orders.
 


Wont it be convient if I was a parent and only had responsibility for the actions of my minor when my minor did something good?

My child paints a perfect replica of the Sistine Chapel and I get to swoop in say "He did this because he's my son! I'm awesome."

My child blows up the neighor's house and they come to me with the bill. "Well...I told him not to do that so I am not responsible for buying you a new house."

Wont it be convient if I didnt have responsibility for when my dog pissed all over the neighbor's carpet and didnt have to pay for a new carpet because my dog disobeyed me?

Wont it be convient if I was given the responsibilty of overseeing food production as a chef and was absolved of that responsibilty when my cooks fucked up the food? Do you think my boss wont hold me accountable simply because my employees screwed up, but would turn around and give me a bonus when my cooks put out exceptional food? Sure, I would chew my cook's asses out for screwing up the individual responsibility I had given them, but it would change the fact that ultimately, as the chef, I am responsible for their bad behavior.

If you take responsibility for something or someone, you take responsibility when it goes wrong, not just when it goes right.

Not only is this a form of "Have your cake and eat it too", but a blatant contradiction. Because by saying your not responsible when the slave makes a mistake, your essentially putting all the responsibility for the success or failure of the relationship on the slave.

By dissolving your responsibility for the failures, your dissolving yourself of really any responsibility at all.

quote:


Anything a slave does is both to the responsibility and credit of the Master.


Unless the slave does something wrong...so this is a contradiction to the statement made above.

Personally, what defines a TPE relationship to me, as a dominant, is that I have absolute authority in the relationship...nothing else.

Absolute responsibility and credit arent connected to my absolute authority...they are two different elements of a relationship.

Any relationship requires effort and work on both ends and cant solely be placed on the shoulders of one person and not the other.

With my absolute authority comes a degree of responsibility and with my slave's obedience comes responsibility as well.

I am responsible for deciding what she is going to cook for dinner. She is responsible for cooking it.

I get credit for making good food selections and she gets credit for cooking it well.

I would be kind of a big asshole if all my dinner guests said "This food is amazing! We appreciate all the long hours in the kitchen to make this!" and I went "Aww...well...gee...I'm just badass." when I spent absolutely zero time in the kitchen.

Its my responsibily to make good decisions that benefit my slave's well being. provide clear direction for her to follow, and correct her when she disobeys. Its her responsibilty to obey my direction and inform me when I have made a bad decision that will harm her well being so I can correct it myself.

Sure, I dont have as much experience as the other posters here, but in my limited experience with power based relationships, the idea that all the responsibility falls on my shoulders, while romantic, is impractical and unrealistic.




IrishMist -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 8:34:09 AM)

All I can say is that LA and MadRabbit covered everything perfectly.



AquaticSub -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 8:58:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:



He and he alone is solely responsible for the actions of his slave, provided his slave is acting within his guidelines and under his orders.
 


Wont it be convient if I was a parent and only had responsibility for the actions of my minor when my minor did something good?

My child paints a perfect replica of the Sistine Chapel and I get to swoop in say "He did this because he's my son! I'm awesome."

My child blows up the neighor's house and they come to me with the bill. "Well...I told him not to do that so I am not responsible for buying you a new house."

Wont it be convient if I didnt have responsibility for when my dog pissed all over the neighbor's carpet and didnt have to pay for a new carpet because my dog disobeyed me?

Wont it be convient if I was given the responsibilty of overseeing food production as a chef and was absolved of that responsibilty when my cooks fucked up the food? Do you think my boss wont hold me accountable simply because my employees screwed up, but would turn around and give me a bonus when my cooks put out exceptional food? Sure, I would chew my cook's asses out for screwing up the individual responsibility I had given them, but it would change the fact that ultimately, as the chef, I am responsible for their bad behavior.

If you take responsibility for something or someone, you take responsibility when it goes wrong, not just when it goes right.

Not only is this a form of "Have your cake and eat it too", but a blatant contradiction. Because by saying your not responsible when the slave makes a mistake, your essentially putting all the responsibility for the success or failure of the relationship on the slave.

By dissolving your responsibility for the failures, your dissolving yourself of really any responsibility at all.


Man... I can think of a few times where my parents would have loved that.

"She got in a fender bender? Oh, I'm not responsible for that. But she won a state-award for her writing? I'm definately responsible for that!"

If a slave isn't responsible for either, then there is no point in reward or punishment because you are responsible for their success or failure. Reward and punish yourself. Except for your nifty clause which leads me to suspect that you have this going on: "She baked a wonderful apple pie, I will take the credit." and "She burned it! That's acting outside my instructions, I will punish you now!"



Missokyst -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 9:25:39 AM)

Light bulb moment. 
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

To me, it's a far more romantic view for the Master to assume responsiblity. 



Kalbar -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 9:30:52 AM)

I don't agree with the seemingly popular response that reward and punishment would be useless in CuriousLord's case.
In CuriousLord's situation, reward and punishment would still guide her toward bettering her apple pies.  Just because (in his definition) he's responsible for the success or failure of the baking, doesn't mean that his role in guiding her towards bettering herself ends. 
If she burns the pie, perhaps it's his fault for not providing adequate incentive for making a good pie? She would be punished in order to guide her towards trying harder next time.
If she bakes a nice pie, then he can reward her for it and as such her successes will (in a perfect world) continue.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with CuriousLord's view on things, but that doesn't mean they can't work.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Masterhood (5/5/2007 9:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalbar
If she burns the pie, perhaps it's his fault for not providing adequate incentive for making a good pie? She would be punished in order to guide her towards trying harder next time.
If she bakes a nice pie, then he can reward her for it and as such her successes will (in a perfect world) continue.

I'm not saying I agree 100% with CuriousLord's view on things, but that doesn't mean they can't work.

WB Kelbar, hope work went well.

No one here is really saying that punishment and reward can't be very useful tools in training a slave.  And no one is saying the master does not have some very real role in being responsible for good training of their slave.  He certainly does. 

The issue is that Curious' initial definition said that a slave has NO credit and NO responsibility for ANYTHING. 

If that's true, then you can't reward them- because that would give them credit for doing a good job.  And you can't punish them- because that would make the slave responsible in some way.

As I said before, you have to give someone at least SOME responsibility for their actions in order to be able to apply standards of behavior and behavior training to them.

Does it make any sense to say "I'm the master and thus responsible for everything you do, but you're the one I will punish?"

No, what happens in reality is that they SHARE some responsibility and credit for the outcome- him for his training and her for the application of the training. 

I get the romanticism of the slave laying down their burdens, no longer thinking or worrying or making decisions, needing only to focus on the masters desires and follow his rules, never being responsible and only moving as an extension of his arm and sword around him.

Sad to say, when you're talking consensual relationships that extend pretty much anything beyond very basic manual labor (and even then you'll have conflicts) this romantic ideal really doesn't apply.  In order for consensual relationships to work, everyone must take responsibility for their consent, for their commitment.

If you are to have expectations of your slaves behavior, you must give them some credit and responsibility for it as well.  You can't have one without the other.

And as the others here have so wisely noted- it would be a bit of an asshole for a dom to take all the credit for something that was really solely of the slave's making.  He can take credit for allowing it to happen, but that's it. 



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