RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 11:59:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You support slave labor, fargle? Because that is exactly what this is. Corporations are giving jobs to these illegals are extremely low wages in order to cut labor costs and increase profits.


If they could compete OPENLY, then they couldn't be exploited. By permitting the unregulated movement of Labor, you enable THE MARKET to dictate wages and benefits, with an even playing field for all parties.



Great point. I doubt anyone will give you a serious answer though.




jj292 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 12:47:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You support slave labor, fargle? Because that is exactly what this is. Corporations are giving jobs to these illegals are extremely low wages in order to cut labor costs and increase profits.


If they could compete OPENLY, then they couldn't be exploited. By permitting the unregulated movement of Labor, you enable THE MARKET to dictate wages and benefits, with an even playing field for all parties.



What are you talking about? The labor market would be FLOODED with unskilled labor. Anyone in the lower to middle class will be royally screwed!




popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 1:46:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jj292

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You support slave labor, fargle? Because that is exactly what this is. Corporations are giving jobs to these illegals are extremely low wages in order to cut labor costs and increase profits.


If they could compete OPENLY, then they couldn't be exploited. By permitting the unregulated movement of Labor, you enable THE MARKET to dictate wages and benefits, with an even playing field for all parties.



What are you talking about? The labor market would be FLOODED with unskilled labor. Anyone in the lower to middle class will be royally screwed!


JJ, correct.
Also we have something in the U.S. called "the rule of law."
It's illegal to sneak into the country just as it is in all countries.
And Fargle, try and get through U.S. Customs with a hundred thousand in cash on you.




selfbnd411 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 2:19:37 PM)

Here's a bit of history for you.  I think you'll find that almost everyone was considered to be an "undesirable alien" in this country at some point in their family history.  You'll also see that most of the charges against immigrants today were leveled against your own ancestors as well.

Immigration is a legitimate policy debate, but it should be based on those terms only: public policy.  Not based on the ignorance of American history that I see so strongly demonstrated in these posts.  I find it to be a shameful thing that such great quantities of stridently held opinion are based on very little empirical evidence.  Argue the pros and cons of immigration, but do not claim that you are so very different from current immigrants unless you have the knowledge and reason to back it up.

Prior Immigration waves:

Irish: mid-19th century.  Their Catholicism branded them as "barbarians," and they were considered to be "non-white" as American nativists drew upon English prejudice against them.  Their alcoholism made them poor additions to America's Anglo-Saxon genetic stock according to some.  They were not considered to be "white" until subsequent waves of immigrants arrived, many of whom were more different from the Anglo-American model than the Irish had been.

Chinese and Japanese: 1860s and 1870s.  Obviously physically different, and spoke an incomprehensible language to many Americans.  Americans of all stripes united against the "Yellow Peril" though the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which effectively forbade any immigration by the Chinese.  Japanese immigration was similarly limited by local legislation, followed by the so-called "Gentleman's Agreement" between Theodore Roosevelt and Japan under which the United States agreed to eliminate prohibitions on Japanese immigration in exchange for the Japanese agreeing to prevent immigration to the United States.  This was seen as "saving face."

Italians: Late 19th/early 20th centuries.  Also Catholic, poor, and often dark-skinned due to the mixing of various races as a result of many occupations of Italy over the generations.  Thought to be genetically disposed to criminal behavior, the worst example of which was the importation of the notion of highly organized crime thought the Mafia.  At best, they were clannish and whole swaths of major American cities fell to the invasion of "Little Italys."  Approximately 20% of Italian immigrants were here as temporary workers, returning home after earning their money.

Slavs: Late 19th/early 20th centuries.  Poor, often Jewish, and considered to be of mixed racial heritage (Slavs were thought to be a "bridge" race between Asians and Europeans).  Also spoke an incomprehensible language.  Worse, these individuals had roots in autocratic nations, and it was thought that an "invasion" of these peoples would result in the death of American democracy.  They hailed from Empires: Russia and Austria-Hungary.  They were said to be a threat to the living conditions of the average working man--unionization was difficult because employers consciously hired large groups of Slavic immigrants, then pitted them against their native American co-workers.  Since native Americans hated these people, their presence effectively prevented any sort of collective action to improve wages and working conditions.

Germans: World War I was a period of great trial for German-Americans.  Many Americans sympathized with the "mother country," England, during the war.  However, some thought German-Americans were a real threat to American national security.  De-Germanification fads hit America--A German-American was lynched for speaking poorly of President Wilson, foods such as sauerkraut were renamed "Liberty Cabbage," the New York Philharmonic Society banned the playing of German music for the duration of the war, German was no longer taught in schools, and a statue of the great German author Goethe was painted white.

A wave of immigrants struck America once again immediately after World War I.  The war had effectively prevented immigration since passage was too dangerous, and this pent-up demand released itself as soon as the war was over.  This caused renewed fears of an "immigrant invasion."  Often, Americans of Western European heritage during the 1920s would proudly refer to themselves as "One Hundred Per Cent Americans," clearly distinguishing themselves from the Irish, Italians, Slavs, and Germans.  By implication, these people were not quite 100% American.

This renewed wave of immigration led to the 1921 Emergency Quota Act, followed by the National Origins Act of 1924.  This imposed a quota equal to 2% of the 1890 Census population from any particular country.  The intended consequence of this act was to prevent the further immigration of "alien" peoples such as Italians and Slavs, because they had not begun to immigrate en masse until after the 1890 census.  The act was passed during the 1920s and 1930s, when the theory of Eugenics was popular.  This theory held that nations had particular racial compositions, and thus allowing too many Slavic immigrants would "poison" the "pure American bloodline."  It was also the basis of Nazism.

There was no restriction on immigration from Latin America, because American farmers needed Latin labor.  The National Origins Act of 1924 remained the law until the Immigration Act of 1965, which replaced the quota system with a flat level of immigration that was roughly equal for the Western and Eastern hemispheres.  It eliminated the exclusion of Asians from immigration.  The Immigration Act of 1965 remains the basis of American immigration policy to this day.




meatcleaver -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 2:42:51 PM)

Good post.

Wherever you live, immigration and emigration are part of the human condition as people try to find themselves a better life. It has always happened and always will. The sensible thing is to manage the process rationally rather than irrationally through prejudice.




popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 3:09:50 PM)

Selfbnd, "most of the charges against immigrants today."
I don't think there are any "charges" being made against immigrants today.
Most immigrants are here legally, work and obey our laws and the country benefits from their presence.
And they aren't a drain on the Taxpayers as most of them pay for their own benefits or their companies do.
It's the Illegal Aliens who are causing the problems, not Immigrants.




UtopianRanger -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 3:51:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You support slave labor, fargle? Because that is exactly what this is. Corporations are giving jobs to these illegals are extremely low wages in order to cut labor costs and increase profits.


If they could compete OPENLY, then they couldn't be exploited. By permitting the unregulated movement of Labor, you enable THE MARKET to dictate wages and benefits, with an even playing field for all parties.



Great point. I doubt anyone will give you a serious answer though.


Oh... I've addressed it. It's a false argument. But I'll address it again though.

I make the case that both the poor and middle class America DO NOT WANT FREE MARKETS.

Free markets as proposed by the globalists, where you have close to a trillion-dollar trade deficit, only leads to the shrinking of a prosperous middle class.

Again....Americans are told by the television that they and all their fellow citizens want free markets, but I'd bet a whole lota bucks that if each individual American understood the true eventuality of such free markets, perhaps as much as eighty-five percent of the population would be against the concept.

quote:

Most people that have immigrated to the United States, were not fully "Americanized" until the second generation. I know hundreds of young hispanic Americans ... and don't know a single one that doesn't speak English. Hispanic integration into American society, complete with the English language, is not that different than other nationality/ethnic groups. Are you aware that in the Civil War, we had entire divisions if Germans, with German officers, speaking German ... and that many schools taught in two languages in order to aid students in transition?


What about the argument that says we don't care about cultural-makeup or ethnicity; we just don't NEED anymore people here in this country - There are too many people!

Surely you understand situational ethics: You have a lifeboat that has capacity for twelve. You have a doctor, lawyer,  mechanic, cook, school teacher and seven other people with various talents and degrees - If the boat takes on anymore people, it will sink and everyone will parish.



- R





luckydog1 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 3:57:07 PM)

Capital can not flow across the border completely unregulated, nor should it.  Neither should people. 
One of the biggest problems (IMHO) with illegals is the lack of medical testing, bringing resistant TB ect.  So our cities will have some "latin Town" districts, thats fine with me, great food and music.  The vast majority of the second generation Latinos speak English.  What is happeneing now is a continuation of our history, the most ambitous and clever of the rest of the world comes here to get a better life as an American.  It improves our gene pool.   It improves America.   Look at the left behinds in France rioting because they lost a free and open election. 




popeye1250 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 3:57:09 PM)

Ranger, that sounds like a lawyer joke not situational ethics.
Of course in situational ethics the lawyer would go over the side first I bet.

And yes, the U.S. has had many periods where we didn't allow any immigration at all for many years.
I think it's time for another 30-40 year stop on immigration.




luckydog1 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:02:32 PM)

But ranger your analogy is flawed, we won't sink and perish, there is plenty of room in the boat.  You might have less leg room though for a while




needDomme -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:07:53 PM)

i couldn't have said it any better. Thanks.

need




Griswold -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:10:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EgosumDominus

It sickens me that criminals are flooding over our borders and our weak federal government has done nothing to stop it. So now a small city named Farmers Branch Texas has decided that enough is enough.
My family, as yours may have well, came into this county the legal way...we earned it. Not rationalizing entitlement...it was an honor to be acceped as a US citizen.
Sneeking into the US or any other country is a crime, and that makes them criminals. No quarter...regardless of where they are from.


If by criminals, you mean people with murder, rape, theft and such on their records prior to coming in to our country (or after)...I couldn't agree more.

If by criminals, you mean however, folks that are coming across our borders to do work no one else wants so you can have vegetables, landscaping and other products or services at roughly 65% of what you'd pay if American citizens provided same...I think a far better solution would be to decriminalize workers who come in to do a decent days work for wages no one else seems willing to work for.

(And require them to have a working understanding of the English language prior to entry).




meatcleaver -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:18:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Oh... I've addressed it. It's a false argument. But I'll address it again though.

I make the case that both the poor and middle class America DO NOT WANT FREE MARKETS.

Free markets as proposed by the globalists, where you have close to a trillion-dollar trade deficit, only leads to the shrinking of a prosperous middle class.



I think it is a fair position if people don't mind the consequences but my guess is when people find their money doesn't buy as much as it used to because everything is more expensive they will change their tune.

Products need to be made closer to home if only for the environment and the currently cheap prices are through exploitation of the poor which can only be sustained in the short term.

Of course, the fly in the ointment is that closed markets will result in the rich getting poorer and that will lead to social confrontation but maybe that would be a good thing.




favesclava -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:40:12 PM)

i'm hispanic a citizen by birth. yes illegal is illegal. but most people automatic think mexican. theres bosnian and spaniards and orientals among many.. most come in through the canadian border. i live in michigan. migrant workers, legal ones ,wont come here cause of the raids. well crops rotted on the fields last year because no American would do the job. i never met an immigrant that didnt want to speak english, and i have met many. and as a matter of fact all of you are here illegally. only the natives are here legally. The british and americans never lived up to the treaties. that would make any contract null and void.
so lets start all over. everyone go back and apply to get in here from the natives. good luck with that!




farglebargle -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:46:04 PM)

"yes illegal is illegal"

As a general response to this concept.

Hiding Jews from the Nazi Occupation in France was "illegal", would those who blindly advocate obedience to the law, need to answer this question, would you have obeyed the law and reported those Jews, assuredly sending them to their deaths?




cyberdude611 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 4:55:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"yes illegal is illegal"

As a general response to this concept.

Hiding Jews from the Nazi Occupation in France was "illegal", would those who blindly advocate obedience to the law, need to answer this question, would you have obeyed the law and reported those Jews, assuredly sending them to their deaths?


We are talking about sending people back to their home country...not putting them in ovens.

Find a better analogy.




farglebargle -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 5:03:13 PM)

quote:



We are talking about sending people back to their home country...not putting them in ovens.

Find a better analogy.


Nope.


From 1848 through 1 April 1933, Jews were considered equal members of German society ( under German law )

1 April 1933: Jewish doctors, shops, lawyers and stores were boycotted.

7 April: "Law for the Restoration of the professional Civil Service" banning Jews employed in government.

1935: Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht. anti-Jewish propaganda appeared in Nazi-German shops and restaurants, Nuremberg Racial Purity Laws.

15 September 1935 : "Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour"

1935 (cont ) "Reich Citizenship Law" all Jews, even quarter- and half-Jews, were no longer citizens.

1936, Jews were banned from all professional jobs

1 March 1938, Government contracts could not be awarded to Jewish businesses.

17 August, 1938 Jews had to add "Israel" (males) or "Sarah" (females) to their names

30 September 1938, "Aryan" doctors could only treat "Aryan" patients. ) remember how Jews were banned from practicing medicine back in 1936?

5 October a large letter "J" was to be imprinted on their passports

15 November Jewish children were banned from going to normal schools.

November 9-10 Kristallnacht - Approximately 100 Jews were killed, and another 20,000 arrested, some of which were sent to the newly formed concentration camps.

On May 19, 1943, Germany was declared Judenrein ("free of Jews") At this point, 200,000 German Jews had been killed.




EgosumDominus -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 5:26:20 PM)

I am talking about immigration law.
If a person doesn’t have permission from the federal government to be here, their presence on US soil make them criminals due to the fact that they have violated the laws of this country. It’s very cut and dry.

What you want, and what it is, is not the same thing.
But you made another point for my position on this subject. How do we know that these criminals are not also pedophiles, rapists and murders?
All the more reason to sure up the borders so some nut cant boat to the coast under the cover of darkness and rape and beat your grandmother to death, all for what few gold fillings are left in her dying mouth.
Its a good point...thanks for helping me make it mine.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 5:28:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: favesclava

i'm hispanic a citizen by birth. yes illegal is illegal. but most people automatic think mexican. theres bosnian and spaniards and orientals among many.. most come in through the canadian border. i live in michigan. migrant workers, legal ones ,wont come here cause of the raids. well crops rotted on the fields last year because no American would do the job. i never met an immigrant that didnt want to speak english, and i have met many. and as a matter of fact all of you are here illegally. only the natives are here legally. The british and americans never lived up to the treaties. that would make any contract null and void.
so lets start all over. everyone go back and apply to get in here from the natives. good luck with that!


More than 80% of illegal immigrants in the United States are from Mexico. So lets not complicate the problem. Over 800,000 MEXICANS come across the border into the United States every single year ILLEGALLY. That is WAY, WAY, WAY more than any other race or nationality.

And Americans wont do the jobs because Americans refuse to work slave labor hours and wages so a corporation can enjoy massive profits. So I say let the fruit rot. When these corporations start paying fair wages and stop the union busting, then we can talk about letting in workers to take jobs Americans wont do.

No one is against LEGAL immigration. If someone wants to come here then they need to have the common decency to follow the law. There is a process in place. You do not have a right to jump the border, go into another country, and then march down the streets holding up your home-country's flag and demanding rights that you damn well don't have nor deserve. If I was in charge, every one of those protesters that came out on May 1st would be checked. Everyone here illegally gets thrown on a bus and shipped back to Mexico.
My reletives came here LEGALLY. They had to go through Ellis Island to make sure they were not carrying disease. They had to learn english if they wanted any hope of succeeding in this nation. And they had to integrate to our culture. My greatgrandfather started with empty pockets, but worked his way up to eventually starting his own business. And yes, he had to learn English. 

And they want to learn English? I don't see it. Everything is written in english and spanish. I can't call customer service anywhere without a computer asking me to choose English or Spanish.
Hell did you know they even have driver's license tests at the DMV in either English or Spanish? I mean give me a f***ing break! So now we are giving drivers licenses to people who can't read our road signs? Great!
And don't get me going about healthcare. There are now ERs in my area CLOSING specifically because of illegal immigrants who go in there, get treated, and never pay a dime on the bill. And then we taxpaying Americans wonder why our insurance and healthcare costs keep going up year after year.




EgosumDominus -> RE: Immigration crackdown, its about time. (5/13/2007 5:45:48 PM)

Very good points cyberdude611.
My family came through Boston...and I have the pride to say we wanted to be a part of this country. The Irish were one of the most discriminated against cultures that have hit the shores of this land. And also being half German...I got twice the history of discrimination.
But we did it the right way because we knew that anything worth having is worth working for.

And you made a very good point about the county hospitals going bankrupt due to the burden of being forced to offer what amounts free health care. These criminals don’t pay for the services.

And no pun intended, but I am on the fence about our tax dollars paying for a free trip home. And jailing them is not an option.




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