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RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 4:40:39 AM   
stella40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Stella40
Twice I've been 'awarded' Arts Council grants which have not been paid out 'due to government policy'. So yes, middle finger time. Trying to get funding is soul-destroying, difficult, and unreliable and you end up spending your time doing it.


Just before I return the middle finger with two of my own may I ask you why as an "artist" you think you deserve a grant at all ? Why damage your soul doing such things when you could work for a living "like wot I did"



I was expecting this seeksfemslave. Okay. And you really think that I haven't, and don't work for a living as well? Oh but I do, and something more seeksfemslave I've also done my fair share of community and voluntary work too. And why do I 'think' I deserve a grant at all? Well aside from the fact that I do actually have close to 15 years of artistic work behind me and have proved consistently that I can get bums on seats and also get good reviews for what I do I personally don't give a f**k whether I get a grant or not, but other people it appears do.

I don't want to brag or blow my own trumpet but so far this includes in excess of £300,000 of European Union grants for youth and community schemes (i.e. not for my own work), whilst in Poland in 2002-2003 I spent a year being sponsored by TESCO and have helped to represent British culture abroad. This is not to mention people who I've worked with who have either found work in the media or even - last year - the handful of individuals who overcame their alcohol or drug problems through being involved in my drama workshops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Just another point to no one in particular, in my posts I have often griped at the left wing bias of the BBC. Well the BBC has just commisioned and published a report saying.....wait for it...the BBC is politically biased. Their own report.
I smell a bit of defensive psychology, you see Stella they want to maintain the grant system that costs us all so much but gives the BBC employees, especially top management such priviliged feather bedded lives.


Ah, now I see where you're coming from. That's television, I work in theatre, two different media. You pay your licence fee for the BBC, not taxes but I don't have a television so I wouldn't know. I have my own issues regarding this grants system, similar to yours, but this is a topic for another thread.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 5:30:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Stella40
I don't want to brag or blow my own trumpet but so far this includes in excess of £300,000 of European Union grants for youth and community schemes (i.e. not for my own work), whilst in Poland in 2002-2003 I spent a year being sponsored by TESCO and have helped to represent British culture abroad. This is not to mention people who I've worked with who have either found work in the media or even - last year - the handful of individuals who overcame their alcohol or drug problems through being involved in my drama workshops.


Now we know why we are being swamped with Polish immigrants.
Seriously tho' you dont answer a very important question. Why do all these subsidies need to be handed out for "youth schemes " and "drama workshops" ? Why cant these youths do a bit of work and pay their own way ? Only arskin'

The theatre is very heavily subsidised is it not ? For what ? For instance the theatre in Leicester has recently received massive grants to rebuild and to subsidise their productions. That would not be necessary if they offered a product the public wanted. Would it ?
Same with the Civic theatre in the city where I live.
As for ballet. Well Albert Steptoe called that poofs football, so what can I say ?
Dont lets forget Opera of course !!

All on the Gravy Train NO?

By the way Bernard Manning is still dead but I know he agrees with me !!!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 6/20/2007 5:39:37 AM >

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 6:00:46 AM   
LadyEllen


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I cant believe you just made that comment about Polish immigrants Seeks.

I employed a young Czech lad last summer - OK he wasnt Polish, but he was a damned good worker, as I suspect the Poles are and the rest who come here perfectly legally.

Above all that we have a debt to the Poles and the rest too - who do you reckon was flying those planes in the RAF in the battle of Britain? That doesnt mean we owe them a free ride (which they dont want anyway, they come here to work), but it does mean we owe them a bit more respect and friendliness than I read in your post.

And lastly - Britain would grind to a halt tomorrow if it werent for all these central and east Europeans in the EU - who do you reckon provides nearly all the road transport coming in and leaving the country, or at least provides the drivers?

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 7:34:20 AM   
Politesub53


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LadyEllen, Yes the Poles did have a large input in the battle of Britain but it was the Britsih who supplied and lost the biggest number of pilots. If history serves me right we declared war because Poland was invaded. Neither counry owes any debt to the other as we were fighting a common evil surely ?

Also i dont see how you can know Britian would grind to a halt. I doubt anyone has a done a proper study, and as with anything political all sides alter statistics to fund an argument.


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 7:56:18 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

LadyEllen, Yes the Poles did have a large input in the battle of Britain but it was the Britsih who supplied and lost the biggest number of pilots. If history serves me right we declared war because Poland was invaded. Neither counry owes any debt to the other as we were fighting a common evil surely ?

Also i dont see how you can know Britian would grind to a halt. I doubt anyone has a done a proper study, and as with anything political all sides alter statistics to fund an argument.




We could argue all day over the war - we guaranteed Poland, yet by 1945 the Poles had simply swapped one foreign occupation for another, with that occupation being by the nation that had massacred its officer class at Katyn to boot. In any case, I said we didnt owe them anything above a little more respect than Seeks' post implied. As it happens, for some reason we had hundreds of these Poles settle in my town after the war and I went to school with many of their grandchildren. They assimilated well, despite the Polish population here being sufficiently large to be self supporting, and to warrant a Polish Consulate here.

I have worked in European road transport for 20 years. Thats how I know the situation. Much of the haulage is provided by Polish and eastern/central European countries for competitive reasons - theyre cheaper than we in the west. Of the western companies operating their own vehicles, most recruit their drivers from central and eastern Europe, because theyre cheaper, and will do a job involving weeks away from home, which western drivers wont. There is a huge shortage of drivers in the east of the EU right now, because so many of their drivers have come west for better wages, though still below the cost of western drivers. So much so, that the Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians and Czechs are doing their damndest to be allowed to import Ukrainian drivers. Thats how I know.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 8:13:25 AM   
Politesub53


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Hi again Maam, thanks for the clarification about transport. i really didnt know that was the situation.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 8:22:09 AM   
stella40


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From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Now we know why we are being swamped with Polish immigrants.



Are you sure you know?

If not I can provide a fairly simple explanation. In the 1980's we saw the demise of heavy industry and manufacturing which was replaced largely by service industries, the supply of retail and consumer goods, financial companies, multinational corporations and so on. Along with these changes came the 'free market economy', a more competitive mortgage and financial services market and increased consumer spending.

During the 'boom and bust' years of the 1990's when people got heavily into debt via mortgages and this increased consumer spending consumer spending dropped as did profits and these corporations and businesses had to find new markets. This new market turned out to be Eastern European post-communist countries such as Poland, the Czech Republic and Lithuania.

Up to this time the Poles were quite happy in their concrete flats, driving Trabants and Wartburgs, smoking Mars and Carmen cigarettes, using Zelmer and Amica domestic appliances and so on. But the 1990's brought freedom and the West in the form of Marlboro and Camel cigarettes, Whirlpool washing machines, Renaults, BMWs, Mercedes, and so on. Then came the property boom, and many moved out of their flats to larger houses or purpose built apartment blocks for mortgages, banks appeared, as did shopping centres, supermarkets and the free market economy.

This has caused the same transformation, i.e. from heavy industries and manufacturing to service industries, shopping centres, and so on. However much of Polish business has either been forced to close, bought out, or taken over. Unemployment went through the roof.

There has been some sort of controlled migration, but controlled by who? Go figure. I can remember that in November 2003 Tony Blair declared an amnesty on illegal Poles in the UK which was backed up by the Polish authorities declaring a similar amnesty for Brits and the Irish. At this time news stories started appearing in the Polish media "500,000 jobs for Poles in the United Kingdom", and there has been a mass exodus of Poles to the UK. Along with Lithuanians.

These new Eastern European migrant workers appear to be very welcome in Britain, especially from an economic or employment point of view. They are qualified, hardworking, they share flats and thus housing costs so they can take offers of minimum wage employment and still have plenty of disposable income.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Seriously tho' you dont answer a very important question. Why do all these subsidies need to be handed out for "youth schemes " and "drama workshops" ? Why cant these youths do a bit of work and pay their own way ? Only arskin'


I now work mainly with adults but the answers are more or less the same. Not many of these youths (or adults) want to work or pay their own way is one answer. But another answer is that not many employers are willing to employ them. This is not just because of appearance - baseball caps, trainers, bling, sports clothing, saggy jeans, Norwegian smiles in girls, Dagenham smiles in boys, etc - but such things as knowledge of basic English (many young people think textspeak has replaced the English language), dug issues and alcohol issues.

With adults you also have age, gaps in employment, lack of references, drug and alcohol issues, sometimes obesity and appearance, and then you do have a lot of people on benefits who are in quite substantial benefit traps, either through being single parents, families, etc who cannot take lower wages.

Then you have the other obvious answers of crime prevention and education, and basic motivation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The theatre is very heavily subsidised is it not ? For what ? For instance the theatre in Leicester has recently received massive grants to rebuild and to subsidise their productions. That would not be necessary if they offered a product the public wanted. Would it ?
Same with the Civic theatre in the city where I live.
As for ballet. Well Albert Steptoe called that poofs football, so what can I say ?
Dont lets forget Opera of course !!


Repertory, i.e. first class or professional theatre is, yes. But some of it isn't. Take many of the musicals staged in London's West End, for example.

But here seeksfemslave I kind of half agree with you, and then again I don't.

I feel that there are too many subsidised productions of Shakespeare and classic plays. How many more 'new' productions do we really really need of Hamlet, for example? Last year I was forced to sit through a terrible three hour butchering of a Eugene O'Neill play. How it got financed with a grant, I cannot explain. I'm one of the lucky people in theatre who doesn't always need funding, my work sells well enough to pay for itself, I can get bums on seats, and have actually successfully staged productions without any funding. But I keep it small.

But then again I disagree. How does the public know it wants a good play when that play has never been produced before? It's not like a concert where you can sell a CD or play excerpts on radio. You cannot preview a stage play like you can a film or a television programme.

And does the general public always know what it wants? I cite the General Election as a prime example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
All on the Gravy Train NO?


Many yes - and boy don't they let us all know it! But everyone? No.


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 10:12:28 AM   
seeksfemslave


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In a perfect way LadyE and Stella40 your posts when taken together prove the point that I am making. LadyE knows that transport costs are high for Brit transport companies, the reasons being  wage costs, working hours limits and above all taxes imposed on the industry
Stella40, in her spare time apparently, represents a major recipient of the tax take ie the arts community.
Then of course we have all the other "deserving" recipients ranging from pregnant 14 year old girls to diplomats in all the God forsaken corners of the globe.
So we have a little local difficulty dont we ? Who is going to give first ?

LadyE with regard to my joke about the Poles, it is not a comment that should be withdrawen IMO When the numbers of likely immigrants from the new members of the EU were announced we were told, not to worry there will only be a few thousand. By clear implication it follows that those who issued that kind of statement recognised that too many could cause  social problems NO ? I suppose you could say they were lying and didn't give a toss!

.Well the clear fact is that hundreds of thousands of Poles have arrived so we can expect and appear to be getting those problems. Pressures on schools, housing and above all blue collar jobs and wages. NO?

LadyE: you know there is skullduggery afoot when the BBC reports on Polish bus drivers and tells us how well off they are because their wages have gone up by a factor of three when moving from Poland to the UK. Never is mentioned the fact that their costs have  gone up by a factor greater than three, so are they really better off?
You do the maths and I'll take the subsidy.

Last but not least you appear to have encouraged a sub. male , Politesub, to overstep the mark and get a bit bolshie. Thats just wicked that is. Inexcusable !

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RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 12:06:39 PM   
Politesub53


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Seeks.... i only got bolshie as i thought you may be watching the sausages today !!


Edits for spelling, or in my case not spelling

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 6/20/2007 12:08:05 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 12:40:33 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

In a perfect way LadyE and Stella40 your posts when taken together prove the point that I am making.



I don't know how other people are seeing this (e.g. Americans) but this part of the thread appears to be about four or five individuals in the UK piecing together various bits of information to get the whole story.

Such is the power of our media.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE knows that transport costs are high for Brit transport companies, the reasons being wage costs, working hours limits and above all taxes imposed on the industry
Stella40, in her spare time apparently, represents a major recipient of the tax take ie the arts community.
Then of course we have all the other "deserving" recipients ranging from pregnant 14 year old girls to diplomats in all the God forsaken corners of the globe.
So we have a little local difficulty dont we ? Who is going to give first ?


Seeksfem, theatre is my vocation however if you wish to continue believing I'm a major recipient on the tax take via my position in the arts community then please feel free (I also wish to add that financial gain isn't my major motivation for working in theatre, I have other motivations). But in the UK if you use a doctor, drive a car, use public transport or do your shopping in the local supermarket you are also subsidised. However....

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE with regard to my joke about the Poles, it is not a comment that should be withdrawen IMO When the numbers of likely immigrants from the new members of the EU were announced we were told, not to worry there will only be a few thousand. By clear implication it follows that those who issued that kind of statement recognised that too many could cause social problems NO ? I suppose you could say they were lying and didn't give a toss!


This I found rather amusing to discover (I was in Warsaw when Poland joined the EU). I remember being in Warsaw and reading stories that UK employers are desperate for Polish workers and that anything up to 500,000 jobs are available for Poles.

In the months May-July 2004 some 742,504 Poles left Poland for the United Kingdom. In this same period 183,218 Poles returned. (source: Gazeta Wyborcza, Polish national daily newspaper).

However quite a lot of this data can be unreliable. According to one British source there are just over 300,000 Poles in London, another figure puts it at 541,000, another (Wirtualna Polska website) suggests 837,000 and another Polish website claims that there are 1.2 million Poles currently in London. This data I feel is unreliable due to the large number of Poles who were here illegally prior to the November 2003 amnesty and who stayed.

I came back to the UK late in 2005 (unwittingly with a lot of my neighbours from Poland) and I could never quite understand why people in England seemed so surprised that there were so many Poles coming to the UK. Ah why yes, of course, why didn't I think of it? The BBC and media telling porkies again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
.Well the clear fact is that hundreds of thousands of Poles have arrived so we can expect and appear to be getting those problems. Pressures on schools, housing and above all blue collar jobs and wages. NO?


I think 'hundreds of thousands' is accurate, being honest, but with the UK as a whole it might turn out to be over a million.

Poles have a tendency to take minimum wage jobs and share flats and sometimes even rooms to split costs, so I don't see so much pressures on schools and housing. However this exodus has left behind a labour shortage of skilled workers in many large Polish towns such as Wroclaw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
LadyE: you know there is skullduggery afoot when the BBC reports on Polish bus drivers and tells us how well off they are because their wages have gone up by a factor of three when moving from Poland to the UK. Never is mentioned the fact that their costs have gone up by a factor greater than three, so are they really better off?
You do the maths and I'll take the subsidy.


Good point seeksfemslave, it would seem so. But quite often it isn't the case. A considerable number arrived without knowing English, and without the means and wherewithall to find either employment or accomodation. The first two years were marred by increased criminal activities from Polish organised criminals preying on Polish victims which caused problems for our police.

I have already written an article on these problems which was published last year and which can be found at:

http://www.mungos.org/Source%2011/docs/wolves.htm


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 2:55:47 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Stella40: tho' I love you almost as much as I love LadyE I have to say your posts reveal that you are totally confused and indecisive.

As for Politesub, you know you went too far and you are being watched.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 6/20/2007 2:56:39 PM >

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RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/20/2007 9:47:42 PM   
dogthing


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quote:

Now, the whole PC thing - I see it as the sort of sensitivity we needed once, gone mad.


Comedians and other entertainers are often deeply flawed people and some of the best of them are complete shits.
If you're going to say that you think that Manning was a great old-style joke-teller live on stage, then not many people here are going to be in a position to argue with you from personal experience, and that judgement of his professional abilities live might be accepted. But as soon as you add a PS trying to portray the guy in a better light saying that he probably wasn't really racist after all, you have to expect people to step in and tell you that you seem to be talking bollocks.

Manning was a product of his times. If "political correctness gone mad" is people saying things that aren't true because they are worried about what other people might think, then your original Bernard Manning post looked like a case of PC.

< Message edited by dogthing -- 6/20/2007 9:49:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/21/2007 12:16:05 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dogthing
Comedians and other entertainers are often deeply flawed people and some of the best of them are complete shits. .


Couldnt agree more.
eg Peter O'Toole Elizabeth Taylor. To name one from each sex.
And the sadness is that their juvenile shenanigans have such influence on the immature easily impressed.

(in reply to dogthing)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Bernard Manning dies - 6/21/2007 3:22:02 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE knows that transport costs are high for Brit transport companies, the reasons being  wage costs, working hours limits and above all taxes imposed on the industry


The biggest problem Seeks, is that Brit drivers do not want the lifestyle. Long distance truck driving is a lifestyle you see, as well as a job. Brit drivers want to be at home every night, they dont want to work nights or be away for as much as one day let alone the weeks that can be required.

They also want paying very well indeed - as they should expect really, considering that it costs them thousands of pounds to obtain that LGV licence, that they are treated like shit by all and sundry, penalised for anything and everything by police and MOT enforcement personnel, and have to spend large amounts of time stuck in traffic jams whilst some idiot is calling them every five minutes to hurry up.

The shortage of drivers is a big problem. In the past we had no problem - guys got their licences in the army; indeed this is why we have so many eastern and central European drivers around, as they only stopped conscription comparatively recently. Thats no argument to reintroduce conscription though, merely to indicate one of the roots of the problem. Young guys nowadays dont have the money to pay for private tuition and if they do, they'd rather have a fast car and some bling.

The other root cause is that old favourite, the insurance underwriters. It is very difficult to obtain the required motor insurance for a newly qualified LGV driver (less than three years experience), and if possible to obtain, is very expensive. Transport companies in the past might have sponsored aspiring drivers to their licences, but nowadays the tuition is too expensive and the insurance even upon success is too expensive.

As for working hours - yes its inconvenient, but I'd much rather have that inconvenience than have drivers of 40 tonne rigs travelling at 50mph who are tired.

The real and ultimate problem comes down to overpopulation, which drives the cost of everything up, as there are not enough resources for most, let alone all. We need to lose a few million somewhere, but on that subject I'd rather we lost some of our own dickheads and Jordan wannabes than throw out hardworking immigrants.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 114
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