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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:32:38 PM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		With your clarifing second post, you question seems less "Why can't dominant women handle it when I say ..." and more "Why can't some people take no for an answer?"

I love it when a submissive approaches me and I say no politely and then no and then a testy no and ... you get the picture.  It doesn't have anything to do with him being submissive.  This seems like a similar dynamic to what you have experienced.

MSS

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:33:00 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

"I don't see a woman as being dominant" comes across a lot differently than saying "I do not feel submissive towards women."

The first statement implies that a woman cannot be dominant,

See....I don't get how you made that LEAP. I see her 1st statement for EXACTLY what she SAID....she doesn't see them as dominant....NOWHERE did she say they CAN'T be.


Hence the word "implies" being there. It isn't explictly said, but it can very easily be construed that way, regardless of what the intent of the statement may be.

The first is a statement about someone else's disposition - which could easily be construed as invalidating the fact that they have a dominant disposition. The second statement allows recognition that a woman may be dominant, but she does not personally feel submissive towards women. The differences may be subtle, but the way the statements come across can be profoundly different.

When in doubt, own your opinions and own your feelings. Making a statement that is unqestionably personal goes over much better than projecting an opinion or judgement onto others.



no actually that is not what it implies....It is what she said... she doesn't see or percieve a woman as being Dominant.  It implies nothing.  It doesn't imply that women can't be Dominant with others.  It does STATE that she will not see them as being Dominant.

I don't see a man as sexually attractive.  Does that suddenly mean that MEN are not sexually attractive?  Of course not.  I means just what it says... I will NOT see them as sexually attractive... but apparently for some strange reason there is a whole group of people that do... and fortuantely for me...alot of women see us men as sexually attractive and since I am a male and see many women as sexually attractive.. I am rather happy that many women see us males as sexually attractive  it means I get LAID!!!

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:33:12 PM   
iammachine


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quote:


I generally hear reasons such as "I am very much in control of my life". My answer...ok, so am I and I'm submissive. "I have always been a leader". My answer, Ok....so have I and I'm submissive". "I am the breadwinner in my household and make a good income....I'm a business owner....manager, etc." My answer, ok, so am I and I'm submissive". "People just naturally follow my lead". My answer, Ok, people naturally follow my lead and I'm submissive. "I don't NEED a man, I'm perfectly capable of handling all aspects of my life without one". My answer, Ok, I don't NEED one either and I'm submissive".


Again, not what you say, but how it's said.

You do x, y, z.... I do too, and I'm submissive. Tit for tat, each of those statements is in essence invalidating the other person's position. So what if you don't agree with the things that make a dominant woman feel empowered? If those things fuel her, that's dandy. If those things don't inspire the same feelings for you, that's also dandy.

The point is, whereas you do not have to recognize her as being dominant over you, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to acknowledge (or at least not argue about) that she is dominant. If someone is being too aggressive about coming onto you, by all means, tell them to bugger off. There's absolutely no reason why it needs to be turned into a pissing contest, however. "I'm sorry, I'm not interested. I simply am unable to submit to women," should suffice.


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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:37:48 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
However, I do have a question (and I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if someone already asked it) - do you not see them as Dominant at all, or do you just not feel like they are Dominant to you?  I can see their point more if you refuse to see their Dominance period (I don't care if you see them as peers ... but do you deny their Dominance entirely?).  It's still silly ... but at least it would make a bit more sense.


I don't deny their dominance in their own situations...it just isn't something that strikes any chords in me. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to define themselves....I'm just wondering why "some" will continue to push the envelope after you have made your feelings clear.

I thought that I explained it in this paragraph but apparently I wasn't as clear as I was attempting to be. Thank you for asking for clarification.
quote:

While I can certainly respect a woman's dominant position in her relationship....or in her community....I don't personally see women as being dominant. It just doesn't work for ME. I've known many dominant women. Some of them are great friends of mine. But I have never FELT dominance from a woman....I just don't get that vibe from them....any of them. I see women as peers.  


and again here:
quote:

I didn't say that no women are dominant. I said I don't see them that way.


I guess it is the line "I don't personally see women as dominant." that is confusing. Maybe my choice of wording wasn't really clear. I should have said that on a personal level, a dominant woman does not inspire anything within me in regards to feelings of submission...I don't feel that "vibe" coming from them.

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:41:57 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

no actually that is not what it implies....It is what she said... she doesn't see or percieve a woman as being Dominant.  It implies nothing.  It doesn't imply that women can't be Dominant with others.  It does STATE that she will not see them as being Dominant.

I don't see a man as sexually attractive.  Does that suddenly mean that MEN are not sexually attractive?  Of course not.  I means just what it says... I will NOT see them as sexually attractive... but apparently for some strange reason there is a whole group of people that do... and fortuantely for me...alot of women see us men as sexually attractive and since I am a male and see many women as sexually attractive.. I am rather happy that many women see us males as sexually attractive  it means I get LAID!!!


Thank you.

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:43:19 PM   
iammachine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

quote:

"I don't see a woman as being dominant" comes across a lot differently than saying "I do not feel submissive towards women."

The first statement implies that a woman cannot be dominant,

See....I don't get how you made that LEAP. I see her 1st statement for EXACTLY what she SAID....she doesn't see them as dominant....NOWHERE did she say they CAN'T be.


Hence the word "implies" being there. It isn't explictly said, but it can very easily be construed that way, regardless of what the intent of the statement may be.

The first is a statement about someone else's disposition - which could easily be construed as invalidating the fact that they have a dominant disposition. The second statement allows recognition that a woman may be dominant, but she does not personally feel submissive towards women. The differences may be subtle, but the way the statements come across can be profoundly different.

When in doubt, own your opinions and own your feelings. Making a statement that is unqestionably personal goes over much better than projecting an opinion or judgement onto others.



no actually that is not what it implies....It is what she said... she doesn't see or percieve a woman as being Dominant.  It implies nothing.  It doesn't imply that women can't be Dominant with others.  It does STATE that she will not see them as being Dominant.

I don't see a man as sexually attractive.  Does that suddenly mean that MEN are not sexually attractive?  Of course not.  I means just what it says... I will NOT see them as sexually attractive... but apparently for some strange reason there is a whole group of people that do... and fortuantely for me...alot of women see us men as sexually attractive and since I am a male and see many women as sexually attractive.. I am rather happy that many women see us males as sexually attractive  it means I get LAID!!!


May imply, better? The point is, the statement is open for interpretation.

"I do not find men attractive" and "I do not see women as dominant" is apples and oranges. "I do not find men attractive" is cut and dry, you are not attracted to men. It's clearly a personal value, and does not project onto anyone else. "I do not see women as dominant" can be taken a number of different ways.  Is that simply a personal value, or an opinion that is being projected? Do you not see women as being dominant towards you, or in general?

-iammachine
your friendly neighborhood devil's advocate


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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:46:09 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


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Status: offline 		I'm not sure what vibe it is that you would be looking for if you simply dismiss women as dominant beings period.   It's as we all say: some people are born submissive, and some submit as an active choice within their relationships.  It's a lot like me saying I just don't get that sexy vibe from women...  No matter how hot a woman may be, I never have the desire to tell her what types of sweet or nasty things she can do to get me to that place.   I've read dominant submissives on these boards, and met them in real life;  I have met dominant personalities who submit, as well as naturally submissives in that role.  The point is that submission may not be from where you start in general, and only get that way when someone does something to you physically or psychically.

I know I work with several dominant women, and being one myself, know I need to tread softly around slightly insecure dominant personalities at work, because if I don't, nothing gets done as it becomes a game of wills.  
That you don't submit to women is your thing.   You may have decided that you control you, and only men will be permitted to control you.   I likewise will get along nicely as friends with dominant men, but would never, ever, enter into a relationship with one who intended to dominate me.   M

P.S. What is silly is any woman trying to dominate you to prove that she is.   We may very well be dominant, but that means absolutely nothing outside of our relationships.  It's true, sometimes we'll get our way when we meet naturally submissive folk, but mostly, dominants are human beings who have to be proper ladies and gentlemen in public, or we just look like idiotic pushy asses; so how could anyone dominate you if you weren't prone/desiring to submit to them anyway?  

< Message edited by FullfigRIMaam -- 10/5/2007 10:04:44 PM >

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:46:44 PM   
xoxi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ocilla

xoxi - I was blown away with vitrol in that short statement.  And I was disappointed.  I am a dominant woman who has enjoyed and even seeks out your posts.   I have always appreciated your veiws and preferences and have sought to learn from your experience and wisdom.   That you would cast such closeminded judgement on how others choose to live, resort to name calling and lump all dominant women into one pile is an unpleasant suprise to me.  I would have never thought you'd be that way.  You've opened my eyes, and I now do indeed feel on guard and defensive. 

As to the feminist remark...once again wow, usually you are smarter than that....

Wiki  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes.[1] Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to contraception and quality prenatal care); for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape;[8] for workplace rights, including maternity leave and equal pay; and against other forms of discrimination
 
Feminism is not about dominance its about equal rights.


You know....you're completely right.  Especially the way I worded that made it sound even more awful.  I probably should have expanded that they were two separate ideas.

The first is that dominant women are usually *seen* as bitches...that I definitely should have emphaized the 'seen' part.  I think there's a bit of a double standard that what is seen as 'ambitious' in a man is 'aggressive' in a woman.  Women are raised to be co-operators, fitting in as part of a team, and good at sharing while men are generally more rewarded for ambition, success, and distinguishing themselves.

So that's where I was going with that...as far as the second part you're right...it was totally off base. I was describing my mother with that post who was like the uber dominant "I'm always right" type person...it drove me crazy!  But thinking about it I realize that there are plenty of women who are dominant in their daily lives, not just in the bedroom - in fact you never know what they could be like in the bedroom.  But people like Oprah, Martha Stewart, even (ugh) Hillary Clinton are all the ambitious type who have succeeded at distinguishing themselves.  And even so - look how they are percieved.  Hillary is a 'ball busting bitch more or less', while our current president is a 'take charge leader' - yet they are both simply presenting their ideas and defending them.  If anything our current president is MORE hardheaded than Hillary but he is considered a "man's man" while she is considered a bitch.

But female dominance comes across in many ways, not just in the board room.  If you don't believe me put two soccer moms in a room together after their sons got in a fight and its unknown who 'started' it...female dominance in all its primal glory!

As far as the feminist thing, you're right...I meant to say 'radical feminism' and that was my own mistake.  I was thinking more along the lines of S.C.U.M., Valerie Solanas, and the ever popular Andrea Dworkin when I was criticizing it...but even so I stand by the statement that many dominant women are feminists simply because many of them have the extroverted, take charge, leadership traits that would motivate them to get involved in women's rights rather than shrug and say it's sooo 70's.

PS you just made me blush when you said you like my posts.  I like your posts too


< Message edited by xoxi -- 10/5/2007 9:47:15 PM >

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 9:53:40 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
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Status: offline 		I'm not sure Hillary is the best example for a female leader.  She has alot of issues despite her sex.
l

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:02:21 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iammachine

May imply, better? The point is, the statement is open for interpretation.


ummmm NO... their is no implication.. infact the only projection is your own beliefs into what was said and as such that is why the it's open to interpertation... you not hear what is said.. your hearing what you are projecting into the statement.

quote:



"I do not find men attractive" and "I do not see women as dominant" is apples and oranges. "I do not find men attractive" is cut and dry, you are not attracted to men. It's clearly a personal value, and does not project onto anyone else. "I do not see women as dominant" can be taken a number of different ways.  Is that simply a personal value, or an opinion that is being projected? Do you not see women as being dominant towards you, or in general?


not it is not apples and organges.... it is the same sentence.   You are project your beliefs into the statement and twist the meaning to suit your own purpose.

I do not see men as sexual.. .I do not see women as dominant.
I do not see women as sexual... I do not see men as dominant...

there is no difference in these statements... except an expression of one's personal preference.  Unfortanate for men... when an attractive woman says that she doesn't see women as sexually attractive... but that is life... apparently a few women see men like I do... rather uninteresting in a sexual capacity.  Just so happens... some people feel that way about men or women with regards to Dominance and Submission.  There is more than a few Dominant males have absolutely no interest in submissive males... in fact most Dominant Males that I have met have a rather hard time to interact with them....

I don't see Women as being Dominant in general!... but I don't see them as being submissive in general either.  they just happen to be women and are peers.. fellow human beings in fact... geez... yes it's my personal view.... and frankly.. if my personal view is seen as a threat to a self and recognized Dominant women by others... well then this Dominant woman has some validation issues that my personal view would threat her.  Just as I would say that it a Hetro Male has some serious issues if my view that they are not sexually arousing to me causes them some grief.  Seems down right silly that My lack of sexual interest would be a threat to hetro sexual male... down right laughalbe I am thinking... just as a Dominant Woman feeling threaten becuase a Submissive Women doesn't see them as Dominant.



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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:07:27 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

I likewise will get along nicely as friends with dominant men, but would never, ever, enter into a relationship with one who intended to dominate me.   M



you do realize that your only a Dominant Women because you haven't met Me yet?


*** god.. if she doesn't kneel at my feet... what are the guys at the club going to think.. what kind of Dominant am I ****

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:15:53 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
you do realize that your only a Dominant Women because you haven't met Me yet?
LOL, sure I might gasp and even consider the alternative for a second, but I think we'd make a much more beautiful impression if you knelt while wearing those beautiful pants.   M

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:18:58 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
you do realize that your only a Dominant Women because you haven't met Me yet?
LOL, sure I might gasp and even consider the alternative for a second, but I think we'd make a much more beautiful impression if you knelt while wearing those beautiful pants.   M


well baby... if you laying on your back... I would have no choice but to kneel down to you so you can suck my cock  *w*


editted to add....

I very much enjoy a PERSON with Wit and a sense of Humor.......  Their Dominant or Submissive orientation is not really in the equation when you just making friendships..... but as someone said... when someone is trying to prove something... like their Dominance or Submissive natures.... they do also sorts of stupid things... and generally it just proves they lack what they are trying to prove and shows a lack of character to boot.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 10/5/2007 10:22:47 PM >

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:23:55 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I have never FELT dominance from a woman....I just don't get that vibe from them....any of them. I see women as peers.


That would be true for me as well, for both men and women.  I suspect it would also be true for a gay male whether he was dominant or submissive, and for most dominants of both genders.  I don't feel any personal sense of submission to another person's dominance, because I'm not really wired that way. So in that sense I have never felt dominance from anybody, male or female.  I have met other dominants of both genders and orientations whom I admire and respect.  I just don't feel personally submissive to them so I don't "feel their dominance".  My personal feelings and my internal response to them has much more to do with who I am than with who they are.


quote:

My question is this though, I have noticed that when I am honest about the way I feel about this, many, if not the majority, will view my opinion as a challenge and set out to "prove" their dominance to me. Some will argue the point with me....and some will go so far as to try to dominate me. Why ladies? I don't get it.


Some people are rude that way.  Ignore them.  But it is unnecessarily provocative to announce in public that women can't possibly be dominant at all, no way no how, because you personally don't swing that way.  That is likewise a rudeness.  Insecure people may respond with aggression.  Others may just consider you with a bit less respect than they might have had before. You're welcome to feel any way you want to feel, and live any lifestyle you know is valid for yourself, but if you go any further beyond that to pass judgment on other people's validity, you're treading on very thin ice.  I think your post is bordering on that thin ice, and that would probably be the reason you are getting the kinds of negative responses you are describing. 

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:24:08 PM   
KMsAngel


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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:25:11 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


Posts: 718
Joined: 6/21/2007
Status: offline 		<<<<----- Laughs, and leaves the hot man with a good imagination alone so as to not completely sidetrack Erin's thread.
...Good imagination though lacking attention to the detail of kneeling while keeping the pants on to please the Ms.    M

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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 10:30:30 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

That would be true for me as well, for both men and women.  I suspect it would also be true for a gay male whether he was dominant or submissive, and for most dominants of both genders.  I don't feel any personal sense of submission to another person's dominance, because I'm not really wired that way. So in that sense I have never felt dominance from anybody, male or female.  I have met other dominants of both genders and orientations whom I admire and respect.  I just don't feel personally submissive to them so I don't "feel their dominance".  My personal feelings and my internal response to them has much more to do with who I am than with who they are.


great post....

particularly the last line

My personal feelings and my internal response to them has much more to do with who I am than with who they are.


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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 11:14:07 PM   
taintedgypsy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
... I don't see a man as sexually attractive.  Does that suddenly mean that MEN are not sexually attractive?  Of course not.  I means just what it says... I will NOT see them as sexually attractive... but apparently for some strange reason there is a whole group of people that do... and fortuantely for me...alot of women see us men as sexually attractive and since I am a male and see many women as sexually attractive.. I am rather happy that many women see us males as sexually attractive  it means I get LAID!!!


I am bi sexual and am attracted to individuals regardless of their gender .... it is the person I find attractive. There are many male Dominants that I have met that just do not push my buttons and some that push all the wrong ones and who I tend to just avoid, I find them unpleasant. I use to think that I would "never" be with a Dominant female ... I can be rather sexually aggressive with women and in my vanilla relationships with women I was always the dominant partner. I had a tendancy to see Dominat women as challenges, my interactions with them tended to be "back off I do not submit to women" and it made life a little uncomfortable for a while.

Now you know the old saying never say never lol ... I met a Dominant woman who knocked my socks off, rocked my world and made me drool lol. For personal reasons I would never go there but it made me sit back and have a rethink . So I have come to the decission that like my sexuality, my submisssion is keyed into individuals not gender.

There are many Dominants I have met that do not cause even a twinge in me and there is no chance of me submitting to them, yet others whose interaction with me makes me feel a deep respect, and their Dominance is a tangible thing to me ... this does not mean that I fall on my knees and pledge my lifes blood but it does influence the relationship I have with them whether it is casual, a friendship or goes further.

It is a beautiful and diverse world and it is wonderful that we all have our own preferances and individual buttons. To each their own and understanding that what one person finds as a Dominant turn on is not what annother sees, but there is no right or wrong just individual needs that differ.

Oh and BTW KOM  I love the fact that I enjoy both genders ... it really increases my chances of getting laid lol



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RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 11:22:15 PM   
iammachine


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quote:

ummmm NO... their is no implication.. infact the only projection is your own beliefs into what was said and as such that is why the it's open to interpertation... you not hear what is said.. your hearing what you are projecting into the statement.


Which was my entire point. The statement is open for interpretation. Screw the intent, the statement was not 100% undeniably clear. Arguing over opinions is pointless, they're subjective. We could go around in circles for days and get no where, because I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are yours.

erinofmists OP was in regards to having problems with dominant women being offended by her statements. I repect her feelings, and hell, I even understood what she was trying to say, and she has since further clarified her point. I was simply offering a different perspective as to why her statements might be offensive to some people, which is my opinion, thanks. You are welcome to disagree, but trying to argue the matter and especially making it personal is pissing into the wind.

quote:

not it is not apples and organges.... it is the same sentence.   You are project your beliefs into the statement and twist the meaning to suit your own purpose.


Since you seem to be such an expert on my thought processes, would you care to tell me what those purposes are?

quote:


I do not see men as sexual.. .I do not see women as dominant.
I do not see women as sexual... I do not see men as dominant...


Ah, but these statements are different from what you originally said. You originally said that you do not find men to be sexually attractive, that is different from saying that you do not see men as sexual, or not seeing women as dominant. Yes it's a matter of semantics, but when it comes to how people may view the statement, it's noteworthy. One statement is absolute, the other is more general.

Clearly, given the amount of confusion in this thread, and the negative reactions that the OP has received in the past, there is some problem with how the statement may be perceived. You may not see or understand a difference in the statements, but I and others do. Just because you fail to see the difference, does not mean that I am not entitled to feel otherwise. Again, I understand th OPs intent, I was simply offering perspective.


_____________________________

I still hear you scream... in every breath, every single motion

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Dominant women - 10/5/2007 11:57:59 PM   
GregariousGreta


Posts: 42
Joined: 4/29/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		(Excuse me if this sounds brash. I'm working this out as I type.)


The question isn't about our own dominance, but why you can't view women as being dominant?

Maybe there's a cross-transferance there with women not being sexual to you and therefore not allowing yourself to view them as dominant. *shrugs* I don't really mind, but I willl admit I'm sort of hurt for really no good reason. :P

Although, if you were a man, would you be able to view other men as dominant?




Although, from another point of view... Is this inability to view other women as dominant also in the lifestyle or just in vanilla life or both? Because I'm semiconfused. Assurtiveness is a trait. *ponders* Dominance is the purposeful outward want(or need for some people) to control their surroundings. Either way it's there. Bah. My brain doesn't work tonight. I'll come back later. I might reword this entire thing tomorrow when I can brain a bit more.


< Message edited by GregariousGreta -- 10/6/2007 12:02:16 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 80
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