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UK Already a Police State? - 10/6/2007 9:35:19 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		An infringement of civil libertiesIndependent, The (London),  Apr 14, 2006   It is not difficult to see why Britain now has the largest DNA database in the Western world. Police officers used to require higher authorisation to test the DNA of someone who had been arrested. And they could only do so for the purpose of comparing their DNA to scientific evidence from a specific inquiry. But after a little-noticed change to the law three years ago, the police were permitted to take and retain DNA samples from anyone they brought in, so long as it was for a recordable offence. Now the police collect DNA samples as a matter of routine from everyone they arrest, which adds up to some 1.2 million people a year.


A case can be made for the police to retain the records of certain types of convicted criminals, such as sex attackers. The number of crimes solved through DNA technology has quadrupled over the past five years. But it is utterly unacceptable for the police to retain the DNA of those who are released without caution or charge, or found not guilty in court. It is true that the vast majority of the three million people on the database were charged. But this still leaves some 125,000 innocent people on the system. To retain these records of such people on a criminal database is a disgraceful infringement of their civil rights. It also represents a subtle change in the relationship between the state and the individual. No longer are we innocent until proven guilty, it seems: we are merely innocent until the DNA database links us to a crime.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20060414/ai_n16169143


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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:35:33 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		They are now speaking of a DNA database to include all of us even innocent people. They want all current people to be processed and that of every newborn baby. Yes the UK is already a police state. The police are so lazy they don’t want to carry out investigations anymore they want to just collect DNA from a crime scene, track you down and then expect you to explain what you were doing there.

Some people say innocent people have nothing to fear from this but that’s because they are not looking at things from a criminal’s point of view. If I’ve just committed a crime what better way to get Mr Lazy fat police man to follow the wrong line of inquiry than by planting someone else’s DNA at the scene. I can get your DNA from the nail clippings you leave behind, the hair from your head, the blood you donate and the things you half eat.

I don’t know about the rest of you but I want the police to have more of a case against me before they knock on my door and take me out of my everyday life to explain why my genetic material is at a crime scene. This isn’t just a new way of detecting crime it changes the whole balance of innocent until proven guilty. Your DNA was at the scene, you are a suspect until we can eliminate you. As we have so many crimes to investigate we may not bother to try and gather more evidence but we will just hand the case to the CPS and hope they are as lazy as us.

I’m a criminal, I’m still laughing because a new system of justice just means I have to operate in a new way by implicating others. The police don’t care if you are innocent they only want to meet their crime detection figures.

You bunch of sheep, what next? I know that’s all have numbers printed on our heads like the livestock we are? When is anyone going to stand up and say this goes too far?

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:39:23 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Give me a valid example of a free country (that you can actually live in) and I will kiss your ass in front of city hall and give you an hour to draw a crowd.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:51:19 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Good Morning FullCircle...... Did you vote for Tony last time round ?  I`m pleased to say i didn`t. I think pro rata we also have the worlds highest number of CCTV cameras. Someone will probably say if you are not a criminal you have nothing to fear. Tell that to anyone stopped by police using the terrorism act, as it can be used a loophole against civil liberites.

I couldn`t really add to your excellent post, except to say this. People never see the bigger implication of things. This and the ID cards are more about making things easier for the police. Cynic that i am i think this is seen as being cost effective and will lead to less officers on the streets than we have already. We wont have any crime deterernt, just a good way to solve crimes that will be bogged down as there are not enough officers to deal with the numbers.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:55:33 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Hello Politesub. Yep it’s really depressing when you look at the future of this nation. I think CCTV has been a vital tool for tracking terrorists though. Within a couple of days of the failed terrorist attacks in London the police had tracked the would be bombers entire journey that day and had clear images of them.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:58:25 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

You bunch of sheep, what next? I know that’s all have numbers printed on our heads like the livestock we are? When is anyone going to stand up and say this goes too far?



People have been standing up and saying this is going too far for about 25 years......generally, these people are the "loony-left-homosexual-socialist-commies". The newspaper highlighting this? The Independent. Typical.

'Problem is Full Circle, this is how it works............

The left get out on the streets and do something about the way this country is bordering on fascism. The media report them as being "unwashed-lazy-jobless-marxist-trouble-makers-who don't know on which side their bread is buttered". The population lap it all up and spend their time moaning about "the state of this country" while sat in their home and doing zero about it, they absorb all the propaganda such as "the PC loony left........look at them, they've never had a job in their lives".......when in reality these people come from all walks of life, from teachers to charity workers, and have far more political acumen than those sat watching quiz shows and soaps while moaning about "the state of this country". 

'Too late now, the horse has bolted........crippling taxes - the left get out on the streets and do something about it, intrusion of civil liberties - they're out on the streets doing something about it, using our armed forces to kill people in Iraq - they're out on the streets doing something about it.

"You sheep" doesn't apply to all of us - some of us have actually been out on the streets trying to do something about it, while some of the others have been sat in their homes absorbing all the propaganda, and probably quite happy to live in a police state.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:09:12 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
"You sheep" doesn't apply to all of us - some of us have actually been out on the streets trying to do something about it, while some of the others have been sat in their homes absorbing all the propaganda, and probably quite happy to live in a police state.


I did a post a while ago as to why direct action had over taken protest, funny that it was related to the direct action that terrorists undertake. It’s a valid point you make because there is that protestor in Westminster (the only one allowed to demonstrate there without a permit) but everyone seems to pass him by now.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:15:58 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		No arguments there from me NG. There is a big difference though between peaceful protest and the disgrace that was the poll tax riots.

FullCircle, i take the point about cctv being useful, that doesnt detract from the fact its becoming a big brother state. My concern is that any data used by the police needs to be handled correctly, and more importantly, used correctly.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:21:46 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Within a couple of days of the failed terrorist attacks in London the police had tracked the would be bombers entire journey that day and had clear images of them.



'You sure? My understanding is that despite London having more CCTV cameras than ants, not once did they catch them on CCTV after they'd left the station in London (can't remember if it was Kings Cross or Euston). They caught them at Luton, and then coming up out of the undeground in London, and that's your lot. Also, they weren't clear images, far from it.

Maybe some more evidence has come to light of which I'm not aware, feel free to post a link, but based on the images I've seen, they provide no evidence of where they went after they came out of the underground. Thinking about it, maybe with the exception of one of them, who may have been caught walking along the street (can't quite remember).

Apparently, we have a CCTV for every 14 people. Are we that dangerous? Do we have that many people running 'round intent on violence?

The problem is the culture, once a culture of "it's ok to watched" is created, as we have here despite the efforts of the "PC loony left", then they have us exactly where they need us. You can't turn that around now, because it's engrained in our culture since thatcher and associates came to power.....it was ok to spy on the Trade Unions because they're only "the PC loony left....the enemey within", and it's ok to put CCTV cameras up because all of our kids are "out of control and our town centres are awash with violence" (are they? really? are they fuck as like!), and it's ok to have stop and search laws because "there are terrorists everywhere and we need to keep an eye on them".....yeah of course, same old eh.

Good work from the conservatives, scared of their own fuckin' shadow, and the rest of us pay the price.

There are other ways of improving anti-social behaviour, such as investment, encouragement, a positive approach....rather than "everyone needs to be watched to keep us all safe". 'Tell you what, the ID cards will be the last piece in the jigsaw...that will be the end to the left's ability to protest government policy........you're out on the streets, they catch you on CCTV, and within minutes they'll be able to put a face to a name and address, they'll be pointing out the most determined protestors and be 'round their houses within minutes "pack it in or you're going to jail", and with wives, mortgages and kids not many will risk it.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:24:46 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		I think the way you have to look at this is to think how a case is built up. CCTV tracks peoples movements so is a valid part of an investigation as you can’t dispute you wasn’t somewhere when it shows you were. A DNA database on the other hand gives no real evidence that you was ever somewhere and so DNA should only be used as supporting evidence not to track people.

I agree with you that information being obtained from us by public bodies needs careful handling but the government doesn’t really care about this. For example all our text messages and phone call data is now stored for a year but why does the gaming authority need access to this? How soon before this information is sold onto corporations such as insurance and credit card companies?

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:30:11 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
'You sure? My understanding is that despite London having more CCTV cameras than ants, not once did they catch them on CCTV after they'd left the station in London (can't remember if it was Kings Cross or Euston). They caught them at Luton, and then coming up out of the undeground in London, and that's your lot. Also, they weren't clear images, far from it.


Yeah I’m pretty sure. I’ll look later but I do remember various images of terrorists running from the scene which were clear to me. What also come to light was the heroic actions of the elder generation which is sadly dying out.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:31:53 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Like drivers details being passed to car clamping firms aka extorsionists.

CCTV in the form of number plate recognition sytems did help track the Glasgow bombers, as i recall one was stopped half way down the MI.

NG the London bombers would have only needed to catch one train from Luton to be able to link up with the underground system. mingling with the rush hour crowd would have been all too easy.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:34:06 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		FC i think the pictures of them running away were the second bombings at the Oval and such. Didnt the first bombers die in the explosions ?

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:54:50 AM   
GoldStallion


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Status: offline 		Well, I am in agreement about the whole thing being ridiculous and far far too much in the wrong direction.

NG the loony left point you make reminds me of the time I went to an animal rights meeting - because I genuinely think animals should be treated kindly (not least because they damn well taste better if they are) and humanely, and definitely think there is no point in testing things in rabbits eyes - I left after two meetings, because the whole thing was hijacked by Class War and Socialist Worker with an agenda which was more about stopping fox hunting and taxing the rich out of the country than it was about the vast majority of animal cruelty. The far left (and indeed far right) have a habit of attaching themselves to valid causes which basically makes it easy for the govt to say "oh look these people are extremists - look whatelse they think". You would get a lot more of the population joining these marches if some of these elements would keep away.

If someone wants to turn britain into a socialist utopia or a classless society, then fine, have a march about THAT. Its got nothing to do with the civil liberties problems. The far left/right and PC dont help achieve progress because the masses take no notice of them and they just give the govt grist for their mill because they often include direct action elements. Most people dont have any sense of self leadership or much backbone and thats why the govt gets away with basically making us all into cash cows.

You can gaurantee that the tax take will go up hugely when we're all bagged and tagged. Imagine you get your salary on your chip - taxed, then you spend it, taxed, then you save it, taxed, move it around, taxed.....cash is gonna be king (until they phase that out as well). No keeping it for a year before the revenue get their filthy little hands on it.

Anyone here work for the revenue? I pay all my taxes coz its easier to be honest and put my energy into my business than evade tax, I just resent it.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 5:58:56 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I'd rather deal with the cause than the symptoms in all this - and the cause to me is plain - a system which is entirely outdated by which we elect governments based on a minority of the electorate having chosen them but which have disproportionate power to pretty much do as they please.

When the tories held such power, we saw nearly two decades of the wrecking of this country for purely political motives - without any interest in promoting a strong nation - with protest from the left which was met with subversive tactics from those in power. When labour won such power, sad to say they embarked on similar motives which have undermined the nation and have met protest from the right with tactics only different by way of the advance of technology. To my mind it doesnt matter who is elected through the present system, the same thing happens regardless due to the disproportionate power held, and the same counter measures are employed, varying only in flavour. With a healthy majority in the commons, one could pass almost any regulation.

What is required in my opinion, is proportional representation and compulsory voting - one could choose "none of the above" of course. This way, every view counts and we do not end up with confrontational government of the nation, but have to have a cooperational model for it would be unlikely any party could attain an outright majority to do as it pleases.

E

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:07:34 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Proportional voting i agree with. Compulsory voting is a big no no, just as one should have the right to vote, one should also have the right not to. Nice point about Lady T and new labour, its intersting that with al election due the two main parties claim to follow her lead. I think this is more to do with trying to convince the electorate.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:08:25 AM   
GoldStallion


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Status: offline 		Well, the problem lies with politicians as a species I think - they usurp an unearned lively hood. People in government should have to be part time government and mainly spend their time in  business/professions/trades/workers/academics etc

Also we dont need so many sodding laws and everyone would be a lot wealthier without so much taxation.

Ban force (except in response to attack), fraud and coercion. That covers all the sensible laws. Legalise everything else. Simple.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:13:43 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

CCTV tracks peoples movements so is a valid part of an investigation as you can’t dispute you wasn’t somewhere when it shows you were.



The problem is though, FC, this assumes that the public needs to be tracked/watched; I personally don't agree with that. Yeah we have criminals, but do the 3% justify watching the other 97% (or whatever the figures are)? I don't think it does, and personally, I don't think the government has any jurisdiction (apart from that which they've granted themselves) to watch my movements.

I'd point to the culture again, we have a culture of "it's ok to be watched": within that framework, anything goes. I'd be surprised if there is another country in the developed world with such draconian measures relating to law and order. The obvious logic is that we're deemed to be more violent and dangerous than the Americans, or the Aussies, or the Germans etc.......I mean, is that right? I doubt it very much.

So, the question is, how do we turn around this culture? Easier said than done: is the will actually there? I don't think it is; I'll guess something like 30% are seriously concerned at these draconian measures, 30% are quite happy because they have bought the propaganda claiming that Britain is awash with violence and danger, and 40% aren't that interested. Education, the political system and cultural and social failings are 3 factors I would highlight in order to move forward.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:23:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

There is a big difference though between peaceful protest and the disgrace that was the poll tax riots.



In fairness, Politesub, there was far more to the Poll Tax protests than the violence. The protests had been going on all day - peacefully - until the violence kicked off. We remember the violence because that's what the media and government want us to remember..."look at them, they're all idiots, how can you take these people seriously?, listen to us when we say we need to tax the living daylights out of old age pensioners and low income workers, they can't possibly have a valid argument because they're all idiots".

There is always an unruly element in any crowd; that's the nature of a crowd, but you look at something like Genoa - there were 300 hundred black-block anarchists rioting among a crowd of half a million people: guess who the media focus on - not the valid peaceful protest, obviously. The other issue that most don't see, is the actions of the police who do their utmost to goad people into violence, but that's another story.

Part of the reason why the UK is heading down the police state path, is because people have been so willing to lap up the media/government spin on these protests.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:30:43 AM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		I think it depends on your point of view. CCTV means that one controller can be in twelve places at the same time monitoring, just as you would expect police officers to be patrolling in those locations. Would anyone be moaning if the police were seen everywhere instead of the cameras? Also if you are in a public place what right do you have to privacy anyway?

Maybe I’m wrong but none of the terrorists died in the second attacks because the devices they used failed to properly detonate. I am specifically talking about the second set of attacks and not the first.

I also thought of another issue relating to the DNA database which I’m not happy with. What if the information is passed onto insurance companies so that they can asses if you are likely to die of caner or break bones due to having osteoporosis? If you think the government wouldn’t share such information you only have to look at how the government handles information from the DVLA which is available for purchase. You never know which government will have access to this information in the future and how they may utilise it.

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