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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:10:53 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Oh haha - verrrrrreeee funny....
 
the.dark.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:16:53 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		  If we used just 1 % of our military budget,towards helping people world-wide get a good,stable water source,and grow their own food,we could take away half the incentive to war on one`s neighbors.Think about it, 1 % for peace.

For all his quirkiness and old looks, Dennis Kucinich(got a hot wife!) had a good idea:...

We have a fully funded war dept.

Let`s also have a peace department.

And rebuild the good standing and respect that the Peace Corps,and the Red Cross,etc., have earned us over the years.

We got all the guns and bombs we need,by ten fold.
Let`s turn some of that energy towards healing and helping.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:18:52 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


I am interested in what would happen to US society,ignore the turmoil in other countries, if you like,their problem,let them sort it out.What would the US do?Think into the future,the possibilities given your current leadership and social structure.


...the US, it seems to me, needs the idea of an external enemy to maintain its social cohesion. If it were to close the borders and stew in its own juices, as it were, i'd expect it to disintegrate within 50 years.........mind you, that might not be such a bad idea. The US, broken up into, say, 5 or 6 seperate nations may well be government on a more human scale........

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:28:18 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If we used just 1 % of our military budget,towards helping people world-wide get a good,stable water source,and grow their own food,we could take away half the incentive to war on one`s neighbors.Think about it, 1 % for peace.



Just imagine 50% of the world defence budgets being used for such things as stable water supply, the poor being able to cultivate their own food and new renewable energy technology. The world would be half way to paradise.

A fairy tale I know with the type of leaders your average human follows.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 9:52:18 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...the US, it seems to me, needs the idea of an external enemy to maintain its social cohesion. If it were to close the borders and stew in its own juices, as it were, i'd expect it to disintegrate within 50 years.........mind you, that might not be such a bad idea. The US, broken up into, say, 5 or 6 seperate nations may well be government on a more human scale........

You are at least half right, we have so many minority and special interest groups fighting, that sometimes it takes a bigger noise to get them all to shut up. For 7 weeks after the WTC bombing, the NAACP didn't file ANY frivolous lawsuits...Of course AFTER that, they came back, bigger and noisier than ever, and we had the illegals claiming they were going to bring our economy to its knees...(Isn't that supposed to be Bin Laden's monologue?)
Second, though, there has NEVER been a peaceful breakup, whether Czechoslovakia, the "colonial" territorial divisions of Africa and/or the Middle East, Iraq's threatened Civil War, or our own well-documented one. (Communist China trying to re-annex their free "brethren" in Taiwan may or may not qualify there...)

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 10:53:52 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		So,would those Americans here agree that their country needs the squabbles of other nations for it's trade and influence needs.Not to mention,stopping the country ripping itself apart for want of a common enemy to fight?

Perhaps telling other countries in need of military aid to go forth and multiply is not a good idea in the long run.The US like any other country needs it's foreign wars whether they like it or not?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 10:59:01 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Well, look it is so much easier to raise the productivity numbers and  GNP, short term (until the bills roll in) and that sort of shit thru wars.

I mean why fuck around and actually take a long term outlook, start building in efficiency and quality.....lead the world in technology (and stay leader) renewable energy, conservation, resource management, healthcare and this sort of wastrel shit?

We are only Americans after all, and are only interested in exporting our ideaology and politics at the end of a costly gun....why waste our resources on our own family?

What are you some kinda pinko faggot commie or something? Seriously, if we put the kind of money into ourselves for outstripping the rest of the world in every endeavor, instead of war, we would own all you motherfuckers, the world over. No need for war to accomplish our goal.

Ron 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/17/2007 11:03:04 AM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 11:16:55 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		But...butt...That would require EDUCATION, and we've already seen knowledge has a "cultural bias", if we focused on education rather than being the world's Welfare system, we'd be excluding pretty much all the foreigners! (This is utterly sarcastic, since math and science are universal, but some do not CHOOSE to learn it--and others actively RESIST learning of all kinds!)
Besides, cutting off the foreign-aid parasites and forcing them to actually HAVE the independence they boast of, would make us hated worldwide! (Just in case we're not already!)

All joking aside, though, if we improve, we will be invaded (more) by foreigners greedy to take what we've got without bringing us anything of value in return, so we will need SOME kind of defense...preferably an electric/microwave energy barrier, which would double as a cheap, uninterruptable method (As in no cables to cut, break, or sever by lightning or other natural disaster) of power-transmission, as professed by Nikolai Telsa! Second, even if we become uber-efficient, the rest of the world won't, and since the world is linked (by the best theories of our time), their toxic clouds would choke US to death, unless we built some kind of dome...Exile criminals into the toxic air outside...And watch terrorists try to punch holes in the dome, since foreigns cannot abide America having anything beautiful and/or high-tech, right?

PS, building protective domes around our major population centers would most likely simply add fuel to the (jealous?) accusations, foreign and domestic, that America is "elitist"...But don't we have the right to be? People are sneaking INTO our country, not out, and while I hate their criminal enterprises to do so, it DOES "prove" that America, even WITH all our "faults", real and imagined, we're better than the countries (We're not allowed to say "lesser cultures", America's new "Prime Directive" is Political Correctness above and beyond all other concerns, especially factual correctness!) they invade FROM!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/17/2007 11:21:05 AM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 11:42:34 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Remember before and after each world war the United States became isolationists… look what you did with that opportunity.

Your petty squabbling cost us more American boys…Yes we do fight for our way of life… and that includes the best economic practices the world has ever seen.

I don’t want us to become isolationists… just stop fighting wars, right or wrong, to promote our way of life.

But nothing wrong with fighting wars for our own self interests. That is what Europe has done for centuries.

Butch

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:11:31 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		USA! USA!


(sheesh.....have you ever been abroad?)

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:32:49 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Prompted by some other threads and posts on here,the thought came about The US and it's interest in sorting out the world. I understand a lot of you from the US are fed up with your country allowing it's citizens to die on foreign shores and quite rightly so, I feel the same about my own country.

But,what would happen if the US stopped helping it's allies and concerned itself purely with defence of it's own shores.You,like us are a warring nation, it seems we have to have a scrap now and again to be happy, but what would happen do you think if the US suddenly ignored the rest of the world.

I am interested in what would happen to US society,ignore the turmoil in other countries, if you like,their problem,let them sort it out.What would the US do?Think into the future,the possibilities given your current leadership and social structure.


Well your premise is wrong.
We have a Constitution in the U.S. and it hasn't been followed very well by Bush or Clinton.
Ron Paul reffered to it the other night in the debates.
And very well too I might add.
Put simply it is not part of the job description of the U.S. government to be going around *intervening* in foreign countries for whatever reason.
We need to quash that type of thinking in Washington.
Too many companies and individuals are making too much money from it!
Personally I don't mind if private citizens want to donate their own  funds to help people in foreign countries, that's the way it should be done, but I don't want it done with Taxpayer dollars.
It's funny, when you tell people like Owner that you agree with him on this but Taxpayer dollars shouldn't be used but that private funds should be used, they always seem to have a problem, "finding their checkbook!"
No problem when it's "OPM" though ("other people's money.")
I don't believe in any type of government "foreign aid" program.
I'm an Isolationist anyway.
Many of these problems come from Interventionism.
I think we need to have minimal dealings with foreign countries.
I don't know why some people or countries think that the U.S. should be a rescue service for other countries.
It's not neccessary for the U.S. to trade with or have Embasseys in (every) country.
In third world countries those Embasseys simply serve as outposts for immigration and foreign aid.
We need to be closing Embasseys not opening them!



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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:40:12 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Yes, actually, I was born in Japan, and have travelled through Crete, Greece (And yes, I AM aware Crete is a PART of Greece, much the way Manhattan is part of USA, despite being a separate island), Germany, China, Korea...
The more crowded places had lower quality of life...America values their elbow room (Insert favorite space-saving device here), so I want to PREVENT America from having to cram in like sardines...Or smell like them!
If you like other countries' ways better than ours, you have my blessing to move there instead...That and a few thousand AMERICAN dollars will set you up quite nicely...until you run out of money and discover that other nations don't take care of their poor rejects, they send them to America!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:42:05 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Philosophy… my post was intended to be over the top and ridiculous … just as your original post.  You always come off as being jealous off America. Please realize the sun has set on the British Empire…get over it.

We are more alike than different so when you criticize us… not matter how slyly … you are criticizing your own way of life… Is there not plenty wrong with the UK you could comment on?

Often the things you get on your high horse for are worthy topics… but why can’t you attribute them to people and leave countries out of it. There is no secret group of rich industrialists running America… They are very open in buying their politicians…. another American trait I’m sure.
These same men and women are also buying the UK and Europe…please fight your battles a little closer to home where they will do some good.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/17/2007 12:43:35 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:43:32 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...i have always respected Popeye's position vis a vis isolationism, even if i don't always agree with it. The only caveat i'd offer to his post in this thread is the bit about private individuals funding stuff in other countries. The best example i know of this was the US citizens who funded terrorism in Ulster. Reagan refused to make it illegal, and we had to wait for Clinton before US money was taken out of the equation there.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:46:23 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		why did you leave off new york and chicago vis a vis the funding of israel and other sorts of effrontery?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:50:47 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...well to be fair KD my suggestion that the USA has tended to need an external enemy to suppress tension at home was meant seriously. i do try to criticise people specifically rather than a whole people but if i fail in this i apologise.
It's also worth noting that i have moved to Canada which means that US policy has become more important in my daily life than hitherto. Even today we hear that because of the US economic slowdown Canadian economic growth is being slowed down. The fact that the USA is the worlds only remaining hyper-power means that it effects people beyond its borders..... therefore it seems to me fair that i comment on those aspects of US policy that have a bearing on my own life. Please note though, that on issues such as gun ownership in the US i recognise that it is a purely domestic issue.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:53:31 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

If you like other countries' ways better than ours, you have my blessing to move there instead...That and a few thousand AMERICAN dollars will set you up quite nicely...until you run out of money and discover that other nations don't take care of their poor rejects, they send them to America!


...already done...and without a single US red cent. i doubt that i'll feel the need to move to the US anytime soon...but if i do please rest assured that i will pay my own way there too.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:55:41 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...well to be fair KD my suggestion that the USA has tended to need an external enemy to suppress tension at home was meant seriously. i do try to criticise people specifically rather than a whole people but if i fail in this i apologise.
It's also worth noting that i have moved to Canada which means that US policy has become more important in my daily life than hitherto. Even today we hear that because of the US economic slowdown Canadian economic growth is being slowed down. The fact that the USA is the worlds only remaining hyper-power means that it effects people beyond its borders..... therefore it seems to me fair that i comment on those aspects of US policy that have a bearing on my own life. Please note though, that on issues such as gun ownership in the US i recognise that it is a purely domestic issue.


I wonder why people call the U.S. "the last remaining super- hyper power" when China has nuclear weapons, a huge navy and air force and 10 million men under arms when the U.S. only has 4 million men under arms?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 12:58:12 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

why did you leave off new york and chicago vis a vis the funding of israel and other sorts of effrontery?


...'cos i've been to Ulster and waded through IRA inspired broken glass in London.........and i forgot about Israel....luckily you were there to pick up the slack

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 1:00:45 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		clannishness of all sorts is alive and well in the states.  we have no stones to throw at the saudis when it comes to backing or funding terrorism.

Abdul Abar Abar Barhar

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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