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RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 3:31:23 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

That said, it has not escaped notice that while most people on CM are careful not to use skin colour as a term derision, it is still permissible to use body weight (in either extreme) as an unnecessary adjunct to insults - e.g. "And that pathetic, bald, fat dude{the regional manager} needs to be sucker-punched by a few of those customers that were cheated." Substitute the race, religion or colour of your choice for the word "fat" in the previous statement and ask if it would pass muster.



Hey, leave the bald dudes alone!  They can be damn hot! 

Now the pathetic ones, they have to find their own cheering section.

Cali


Thank you for speaking us for us bald men, Cali
Now can we get someone to speak up for us fat men?  Anyone, anyone?

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 3:31:58 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Agreed, Popeye. If it were against the law simply to offend I'd be a man of few words. Censorship is not the goal of mindfulness though.

In the example of the use of fat as a derogative, it's not the use of the term I object to, it's the choice of how it's used. The guy being insulted (deservedly so I might add) is also white and bald, characteristics unrelated to his criminal bent. It always comes down to context and intent.


Z.


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 3:51:15 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well "fat" kind of is a derrogative.
I've rejoined the Gym after a 1 year break.
I was becomming a fat slob. My weight balooned up to 235 lbs and I had a beer gut and I don't even drink.
After the last two weeks of excercising I feel like I went 10 rounds with George Forman!
But, I'm a disabled veteran, I'm 56 and I'm *doing* it!
I can't do all of the excercises that I want to but I do what I can and I've cut out Coca Colas for a month.
If I can do it so can other (fat) people!

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 3:54:28 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		Thank Y/you to E/everyone who replied.  The tension between racism and freedom of speech is much clearer now to me.  This is what i think:
 
Racial slurs are hate speech.  However, i have a near zero tolerance for bigots, so i guess i'm guilty of 'hatred' myself.  Since there's no way to split the baby, i guess free speech should win out.
 
Didn't feel like that when i posted the Op; it's always nice to have P/pl help better inform me.
 
pinksugarsub

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:04:57 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDaddyZ

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

That said, it has not escaped notice that while most people on CM are careful not to use skin colour as a term derision, it is still permissible to use body weight (in either extreme) as an unnecessary adjunct to insults - e.g. "And that pathetic, bald, fat dude{the regional manager} needs to be sucker-punched by a few of those customers that were cheated." Substitute the race, religion or colour of your choice for the word "fat" in the previous statement and ask if it would pass muster.



Hey, leave the bald dudes alone!  They can be damn hot! 

Now the pathetic ones, they have to find their own cheering section.

Cali


Thank you for speaking us for us bald men, Cali
Now can we get someone to speak up for us fat men?  Anyone, anyone?


It's all about the attitude DDZ.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:10:36 PM   
ottRopesandKnots


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Racial slurs are hate speech.


I'm not certain I believe in that statement.  I can use a racial slur to antagonise someone, but that doesn't mean I really hate the group.  I may just recognize that to annoy that person that's the button I can push.  The intent is to annoy the individual, not denigrate the group.

Granted, I don't actually use that kind of language, but if I did I'd rather not be labelled a racist or bigot.


(in reply to pinksugarsub)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:12:41 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Hate speech or words that incite violence I doubt really apply on an anonymous internet message board as it applies to free speech. 

It is, however, unintelligent, bad form, impolite, will make most people not read what you say and most likely against the general TOS.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:13:51 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I haven't named sites because anyone can find them. I'm not going to argue it out with anyone but it looks to me like the bigoted comments "elsewhere" are the ones which get moderated, not those of the people who deride them. I prefer it that way round.  I don't hang out with bigots in life and if you're comfortable around them, I probably won't want to know you either.

The comment Zensee made to seeks earlier in this thread was interesting: I made a similar but much milder comment yesterday and was threatened with being blocked by the mods. How the fuck does that work? It seems to me that if someone comes on and insults an entire group, they should be able to take what comes back.

Being fat, bald, - not the same. I've never seen anyone take a hatchet or a knife blow for being bald or fat but unfortunately have seen that happen to friends from white racists. I find it offensive having to read their shit. If you are happy to live with it and think that that adds to the gaiety of nations, be my guest.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:17:51 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Racial slurs are hate speech.


I'm not certain I believe in that statement.  I can use a racial slur to antagonise someone, but that doesn't mean I really hate the group.  I may just recognize that to annoy that person that's the button I can push.  The intent is to annoy the individual, not denigrate the group.

Granted, I don't actually use that kind of language, but if I did I'd rather not be labelled a racist or bigot.




That's the way; aim high.

(in reply to ottRopesandKnots)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:19:23 PM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a "report" button fuction on every post, it maybe more productive to make the moderators aware of this situation than it is to start a thread about a post none of us have or will see...

The "report" button is in the lower right hand corner of every post.


The only problem with the report feature is the mods don't read them until they have unstated number of reports


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 4:34:16 PM   
GoddessMine


Posts: 250
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ottRopesandKnots

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
Racial slurs are hate speech.


I'm not certain I believe in that statement.  I can use a racial slur to antagonise someone, but that doesn't mean I really hate the group.  I may just recognize that to annoy that person that's the button I can push.  The intent is to annoy the individual, not denigrate the group.

Granted, I don't actually use that kind of language, but if I did I'd rather not be labelled a racist or bigot.




That is some twisted logic there...your intent may be "to annoy", but I'm sure the person on the receiving end of your racial slur would beg to differ. Often times, but not for everyone, mind you, a person of color is directly tied to their group identity. The identity of any given community of color is imbued by a shared, historical context, and is a source for pride and empowerment.

When Michael Richards began his infamous tirade of racial slurs during his stand-up, I'm sure he only "meant" to direct it to that sole, black heckler. However, a large part of the African American community became outraged upon witnessing the grainy video - and they weren't even there.

Hell, I was fucking offended and disgusted.

*And a note to RealityLicks - some good insight at the end. Many don't realize the power and violence behind racial slurs, and thus make egregious comparisons to "cracker" or "fatty". I understand that there are always exceptions, and certainly being called a "cracker" or "ugly" is dumb and offensive, but they don't carry the same weight. Of course, this too is problematic, and I don't want to start a Victims' Olympics...oh well.

Love,
GM

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:02:02 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Hate speech or words that incite violence I doubt really apply on an anonymous internet message board as it applies to free speech. 

It is, however, unintelligent, bad form, impolite, will make most people not read what you say and most likely against the general TOS.


Laurell, you're right, it's impolite and it shows ignorance.
And it's totally unneccessary to make a point.
But, some people try to stretch that into other types of speech that (they) don't like.
If you believe in free speech you'll hear things that you don't like, that's life.
I have friends in Boston, highly educated who when they want to go out for Chinese or Asian food say, "Hey, you want to go out for Chinks tonight?"
They don't mean anything bad by it just a figure of speech and they're Black.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:07:20 PM   
GoddessMine


Posts: 250
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I have friends in Boston, highly educated who when they want to go out for Chinese or Asian food say, "Hey, you want to go out for Chinks tonight?"
They don't mean anything bad by it just a figure of speech and they're Black.


Is it ok, though? Would you attempt to make it a point to them that it's not cool to say that? Words and their meanings fluctuate constantly - My BF's father still says "Oriental", and he's Japanese - but I think we can all agree that "chink" is a terrible, racist word and should not be used when to describe a certain type of food, culture, or people (and I also understand that contexts differ).

If I felt like eating at Roscoe Chicken and Waffles (awesome, btw), and proclaimed: "Hey let's go out for Niggers tonight?" - would that fly? I'm educated, too.

Love,
GM

< Message edited by GoddessMine -- 11/15/2007 5:08:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:18:15 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessMine

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I have friends in Boston, highly educated who when they want to go out for Chinese or Asian food say, "Hey, you want to go out for Chinks tonight?"
They don't mean anything bad by it just a figure of speech and they're Black.


Is it ok, though? Would you attempt to make it a point to them that it's not cool to say that? Words and their meanings fluctuate constantly - My BF's father still says "Oriental", and he's Japanese - but I think we can all agree that "chink" is a terrible, racist word and should not be used when to describe a certain type of food, culture, or people (and I also understand that contexts differ).

If I felt like eating at Roscoe Chicken and Waffles (awesome, btw), and proclaimed: "Hey let's go out for Niggers tonight?" - would that fly? I'm educated, too.

Love,
GM


GoddessMine, I don't know what to say except that I can't control what other people say.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:26:04 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I'm not here to stand up for groups or people being slandered.  Not my job, not my interest. I am here to read the boards, maybe ask questions and to comment on threads.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Secondly, the real tragedy I believe is that so few people here are prepared to stand up for groups who are slandered on this site.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:26:16 PM   
LadySeraphina


Posts: 931
Joined: 3/28/2006
From: Calgary, Canada
Status: offline 		I don't associate with anyone that makes racial slurs, but I do have a few young friends who use the term 'gay' as a derogative, such as "that's so gay". I know they are not homophobic, but rather grew up around enough tolerance that they don't appreciate the impact of what they say, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable. Whenever I hear it, I point out - politely - that while I'm sure it isn't their intent, using the word in that way implies that being a homosexual is a negative thing, and I won't tolerate the use of bigoted terms in my presence.

Edited for typo.

< Message edited by LadySeraphina -- 11/15/2007 5:27:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 5:58:04 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		So we bring cultural expectations head on with rights.

Words are like hammers.  They can do great things, and they can be used as weapons.  The line between 'Free Speech' and 'Hate Speech' are subject to this test.  If words are used in such a way as to incite others to kill, those words are weapons just as surely as if I was handing out bullets.  But if those words aren't used to threaten or intending to threaten life or property, they become simply bad manners on par with indecent gestures.

On the other hand, I make racist jokes.  I do it with people who can enjoy the humor for what it is, knowing full well that I am not racist.  I wouldn't make the same joke with someone I did not know and trust well enough to share it with.  I think one of the most healthy and humbling things for a man or group to do is to be able to laugh at itself.  I'm aware that I run the risk of offending someone.  In fact, I know I offend people every now and then, whether I intend to or not.  My willingness to sincerely and honestly address any damage I do cause with my words, I believe, is the difference between those who use humor or words to hurt, and those who use humor and words to build.

Stephan


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 6:22:00 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

There's a disturbing (to me) post on a thread here that repeatedly uses racial slurs including the "n word".  Other slurs against other minorities are also used.  Does such language violate the CM TOS (thinking of the prohibition against harrassing speech)?  Do the mods ever remove such posts or close threads because of them?
 
Is this a matter of free speech?  Personally i find absolutely no excuse for such language and wish it were subject to moderation.
 
What do Y/you think?
 
pinksugarsub


I think if you encourage talk about someone using a buzz word, said person gets what they want:  attention.

That aside, I intensely dislike censorship of speech in most any form.  Why?  Well, when a person says what's on their mind, you get a better glimpse into who that person is.  If you're insulted by the word nigger and someone uses it, it's there for all to see like a Jeff Foxworthy sign...now, isn't it?

Words are tools of communication.  They all come from somewhere.  Learn where they came from; observe how they are used; enjoy the education.

While I edit my speech around UMs, I don't kid myself that I won't hear them swearing when they're 18.  Why?  It's language, it represents who we are, where we came from, what we believe in.  If I avoid saying, "Shit!" around little Sally, adult Sally will still say some day, "Shit!" nonetheless.  I suspect that language is edited around UMs for two reasons:  to reinforce the negative connotation a word is given by society, and because we don't want to be the guilty party who teaches them "that bad word".

Next thing you know, I won't be able to bang a hooker while I'm wearing a toga while she screams by request, "Fuck me Jesus!  Fuck me God!  Ohhhh, FUCK ME!"




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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 6:35:39 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

aye you never heard of ma nigga?

A couple of black buds from across town come along and start hittin it up and you would shut them up in an effort to what?, sanitize or is that sterilize the world around you?

Hell we can take that to its natural conclusion.  What if fat people or skinny people offended me?  Blue eyes maybe.  The question to you is where does it end?  This sanitation process?

The way I see it there are two approaches.

Make laws of everything in the world that offends every one, or if thine radio offends thee turn the dam nthing off.  If the post offends thee, skip it and read the next one intead.

Part one slavery, part 2 freedom.









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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Racial Slurs on the CM Boards - 11/15/2007 6:39:19 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not here to stand up for groups or people being slandered.  Not my job, not my interest.


Pastor Niemoeller, call your office.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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